3 Empty ended taos in Wing Chun : video and comments

[Xue Sheng]

To lock the elbow at the end of each punch may look good for "performance" (The modern Wushu does that all the time). It won't be good for combat or health. If the end of your punch is the beginning of your next punch, your arm will never be locked.

Yeah, I was thinking prime qinna target, but then that is the same thing

 

[mook jong man]

Yeah, I was thinking prime qinna target, but then that is the same thing

At the rate of up to ten punches a second , believe me you would be hard pressed trying to even block that type of speed in a punch let alone try and grab it to apply a lock.
By the time you have tried to apply the lock , the elbow is already back down and the arm retracted back into the "optimum angle" and your getting hit with their other hand.

We lock out our punches and kicks , when you totally relax the biceps the arm will naturally reach full extension and maximum power , we call this "elbow force" a powerful driving force from the elbow.
As long as you stay relaxed there is no problem.
I have been locking my punches out for years and have no elbow problems except for damage done while training in grappling with someone who was a bit overzealous in applying an arm bar.

Simply put if you are not fully extending your Wing Chun punches or palm strikes , you are not generating maximum power.

 

[wtxs]

We lock out our punches and kicks , when you totally relax the biceps the arm will naturally reach full extension and maximum power , we call this "elbow force" a powerful driving force from the elbow.

As long as you stay relaxed there is no problem.
I have been locking my punches out for years and have no elbow problems except for damage done while training in grappling with someone who was a bit overzealous in applying an arm bar.

Simply put if you are not fully extending your Wing Chun punches or palm strikes , you are not generating maximum power.

In the fractions of an second during a punch/kick, there may be the "latching" of the joints at full extension, I don't consider that to be an locking action, as you've said ... the elbow/knee joint should be on its retracting cycle, so there is no "locking. To me, "lock out" has an definite stop of motion in time, such as that of some hard style MA punch/kick.

There are more than one way of generating max power in WC without have to rely on full extension of you limbs. On the down side, full extension could be used against you as mentioned before, could also comprise your overall balance and therefore you structure ... just MHO.

 

[Xue Sheng]

At the rate of up to ten punches a second , believe me you would be hard pressed trying to even block that type of speed in a punch let alone try and grab it to apply a lock.
By the time you have tried to apply the lock , the elbow is already back down and the arm retracted back into the "optimum angle" and your getting hit with their other hand.

We lock out our punches and kicks , when you totally relax the biceps the arm will naturally reach full extension and maximum power , we call this "elbow force" a powerful driving force from the elbow.
As long as you stay relaxed there is no problem.
I have been locking my punches out for years and have no elbow problems except for damage done while training in grappling with someone who was a bit overzealous in applying an arm bar.

Simply put if you are not fully extending your Wing Chun punches or palm strikes , you are not generating maximum power.

Yup, Seen that, but it only takes one, besides I said opportunity I did not say it was imminent and who says I'm going to stand there while you chamber away punch after punch....believe me...I'm not.

Can't speak for wing chun because I did not do it long enough but you can generate one heck of a lot of power without fully extending in Xingyiquan, Taijiquan and Sanda.

 

[mook jong man]

Yup, Seen that, but it only takes one, besides I said opportunity I did not say it was imminent and who says I'm going to stand there while you chamber away punch after punch....believe me...I'm not.

Can't speak for wing chun because I did not do it long enough but you can generate one heck of a lot of power without fully extending in Xingyiquan, Taijiquan and Sanda.

Your thinking of the type of chain punching you see a lot of beginners doing or what you commonly see on most Wing Chun videos.
In our chain punching once the punch makes contact with the opponents arms , the fist then changes into a hook which pulls the opponents arms down continuously while striking with the other hand , a bit like walking into a chain saw.

So you can't very well go anywhere while your arms are being latched and your being hit in the face at the same time , if you did manage to try and get to the side he only has to pivot and side slash you in the neck.

I remember the time a blackbelt in Jiu Jitsu tried to grab my fingers and break them when we were supposed to be doing "light hand sparring".
I felt the grab as he tried to put the lock on and promptly punched him in the face with my other hand.
Went home that day with mildly sprained fingers , he went home bleeding profusely from the mouth with a split lip.

 

[mook jong man]

In the fractions of an second during a punch/kick, there may be the "latching" of the joints at full extension, I don't consider that to be an locking action, as you've said ... the elbow/knee joint should be on its retracting cycle, so there is no "locking. To me, "lock out" has an definite stop of motion in time, such as that of some hard style MA punch/kick.

There are more than one way of generating max power in WC without have to rely on full extension of you limbs. On the down side, full extension could be used against you as mentioned before, could also comprise your overall balance and therefore you structure ... just MHO.

Now we are just getting into semantics.
All I am saying is that you should relax your bicep when you punch and relax your hamstrings when you kick.
Extend for the briefest nanosecond until the energy is released and then back into the optimum angle.

If you are not letting your limbs extend naturally then you are not fully relaxed , because you are using the biceps as a brake to stop your arm from reaching the full limit of its motion.
The only reason to do so would be to stop from damaging your partner , but in the air or on a pad just relax and let the striking limb fly out.

I think that there is a hell of a lot of misinformation out there about Wing Chun and I am not talking about you here wtxs , most of it is due to ignorance of the system and people trying to apply truisms that might be appropriate for other martial arts but in no way apply to Wing Chun.

 

[poulperadieux]

Maybe so, but I think that a Tao is not a training to fight, it's body conditionning.

If you trained the mook jong, you'll see patterns interrupted, none full extensions, fight combinations.

The Tao is for the body, and the Mook jong is to understand how to transcend the Body conditionning in the fight.

And also, the teacher don't exclusively teach the Taos... There are a lot of things to do with a partner to learn what you are talking about.

Alone, I train my arms, my legs and my body connexion this way, if not, when do I do it?
When do you do it?


Thinking that one, when training the forms, will reproduce in a fight the same patterns, is a misunderstanding of the purpose of a Tao.

That's the transformation of Wing Chun Tao in KATAS, that's japanese stuff guys !

 

[mook jong man]

Maybe so, but I think that a Tao is not a training to fight, it's body conditionning.

If you trained the mook jong, you'll see patterns interrupted, none full extensions, fight combinations.

The Tao is for the body, and the Mook jong is to understand how to transcend the Body conditionning in the fight.

And also, the teacher don't exclusively teach the Taos... There are a lot of things to do with a partner to learn what you are talking about.

Alone, I train my arms, my legs and my body connexion this way, if not, when do I do it?
When do you do it?


Thinking that one, when training the forms, will reproduce in a fight the same patterns, is a misunderstanding of the purpose of a Tao.

That's the transformation of Wing Chun Tao in KATAS, that's japanese stuff guys !

Could you explain this a bit further because I haven't got the faintest idea what you are talking about.

 

[poulperadieux]

What didn't you understood?

What is a Tao for you, and the difference between the Kata and the tao?

 

[Argus]

Wait, so, you do not believe that Tao are for practicing technique, but rather for some kind of physical benefit? Or am I misunderstanding?

 

[Jake104]

In the fractions of an second during a punch/kick, there may be the "latching" of the joints at full extension, I don't consider that to be an locking action, as you've said ... the elbow/knee joint should be on its retracting cycle, so there is no "locking. To me, "lock out" has an definite stop of motion in time, such as that of some hard style MA punch/kick.

There are more than one way of generating max power in WC without have to rely on full extension of you limbs. On the down side, full extension could be used against you as mentioned before, could also comprise your overall balance and therefore you structure ... just MHO.

I agree with your last statement . There are other ways of generating power without relying on full extension of limbs. Specifically for me I can generate power just fine from a bent arm or any arm/ limb position. I strike with my body not my arms or legs. So extension isn't that much of difference power wise anyway .

I originally learned to fully extend but have since changed to just leaving a slight bend. I have had my arm hyper extended in the past . It was at full speed and a late timed Bong Sao slid under resulting in over extension. This is not the reason I switched though. I switched because when you fully extend your arm your shoulder will rise disconnecting your elbow from the hip heel and ground. So in my opinion you loose the body connection that gives WC power in the first place. I don't buy into the whole speed, machine gun approach. I want my punches/ kicks to be of the heavy solid full body drive from the hip type.

 

[mook jong man]

I agree with your last statement . There are other ways of generating power without relying on full extension of limbs. Specifically for me I can generate power just fine from a bent arm or any arm/ limb position. I strike with my body not my arms or legs. So extension isn't that much of difference power wise anyway .

I originally learned to fully extend but have since changed to just leaving a slight bend. I have had my arm hyper extended in the past . It was at full speed and a late timed Bong Sao slid under resulting in over extension. This is not the reason I switched though. I switched because when you fully extend your arm your shoulder will rise disconnecting your elbow from the hip heel and ground. So in my opinion you loose the body connection that gives WC power in the first place. I don't buy into the whole speed, machine gun approach. I want my punches/ kicks to be of the heavy solid full body drive from the hip type.

Have to disagree with that one , whether your arm is bent or straight the shoulder joint should be relaxed enough that it stays down in its socket.
When your biceps and shoulder joint are relaxed , a fast punch will reach its full range of movement and then there will be a slight movement forward from the shoulder as that joint then comes into play.

Actually there are parts of the SLT form that teach you to counter attack from a position of having a fully extended arm.
In the Bil Gee form this concept of generating power from the shoulder is further built upon with the deliberate stretching of the shoulder joints when performing the pivoting elbow strike sequences and the parts where you palm strike and pivot to the side with full shoulder extension.

 

[Vajramusti]

http://poulperadieux.com/about/chi-sao/

Commments, and discussion welcome ![/QUOT

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Thank you for sharing your SLT video and the others. Apparently much of what I do is different from yours.
If you can make yours work- good for you.

There are many differences. Two examples enough for now-I am being collegial not antagonistic.

1. In the slt you punch with one hand and leave it out there while you punch with the other.
My two hands move in a coordinated way. One hand sinks back to the center while the other punch goes out.

2. In chum kiu you lean back-I don't

A comment on the part of the thread that touched on punching the full distance versus punching with the arm bent.
IMO one is for development and the other is for application.Inter-related but disdtinct functions IMO.

 

[mook jong man]

What didn't you understood?

What is a Tao for you, and the difference between the Kata and the tao?

Well in my opinion kata as performed by other martial arts seem to be choreographed fights against multiple imaginary opponents.

The Wing Chun forms on the other hand are sequences of exercises based around certain concepts.
The three empty hand forms each concentrate on a different theme , these separate themes when merged will form the best strategy for defence and attack .

SLT concentrates on finding the individuals "optimum angle" , defence and attack using the centerline , also the cultivation of energy flow amongst other things.

Chum Kiu is concerned with mobility , stepping and pivoting , strengthening of the waist and the use of multiple vectors of force to attack the opponent.
Bil Gee is mainly focused on driving force out to the palms and fingers and using the upper body to generate enormous attacking power.

 

[WTchap]

I only had time to check out the first video (SNT), but I liked a lot of what you were training. I train in the Leung Ting organization, so I see a few similarities in our form, but quite a few differences too. But that's cool - it's all good.

I liked the fact that you were, it seemed to me, focussing on going slow to activate the muscles you need to use while making sure you kept relaxed the ones not needed to support a movement. In the WT lineage we should always train the forms like this.

And we also extend the arm fully in the punches during the forms - to get the energy out (freeing yourself of your own force, as LT would have it).

I'll try to watch the other videos later - thanks for posting them!

 

[Xue Sheng]

Your thinking of the type of chain punching you see a lot of beginners doing or what you commonly see on most Wing Chun videos.
In our chain punching once the punch makes contact with the opponents arms , the fist then changes into a hook which pulls the opponents arms down continuously while striking with the other hand , a bit like walking into a chain saw.

unless you do Taiji and you have no issue with sticking and following and I don't care what type of punch actually. I likely will not be were you want me to be or expect me to be.

So you can't very well go anywhere while your arms are being latched and your being hit in the face at the same time , if you did manage to try and get to the side he only has to pivot and side slash you in the neck.

That would all depend on how far I moved in and where you pulled me, pull me right and I hit you with kao or or Ji or An or Zhou. Pull a good Yang Taiji guy in he will follow, yes you may hit him but he will hit you as well with one of the things I mentioned or possibly something else depending on what "you " do.

I remember the time a blackbelt in Jiu Jitsu tried to grab my fingers and break them when we were supposed to be doing "light hand sparring".
I felt the grab as he tried to put the lock on and promptly punched him in the face with my other hand.
Went home that day with mildly sprained fingers , he went home bleeding profusely from the mouth with a split lip.

Mook, depending on what you do taiji responds, if I do not feel the right energy for qinna I will not do it. I will not try and muscle a qinna lock. If you are not in the position I will not do it. And if I did qinna well (and sadly I am not at the level of my sifu) you will not feel a thing because you lock yourself (been there a lot myself). There is no attempting a lock, there is no forcing a lock if you are in the position there is just a lock. You will not feel it until you are locked. That is how good Yang style qinna works (at least in the Tung Ying Chieh line), it is not Jujutsu or aikido or Sanda or Wing Chun and it does not approach it the same. However, not to worry, I am not that good. Sparing a taiji guy is dull and boring because we don't do much if you don't do anything. It could be a good staring match however

Additionally this back and forth is pretty much pointless so let’s just say yes your Wing Chun will trounce the hell out of me, I am not worthy and leave it at that.

 

[wtxs]

Now we are just getting into semantics.
All I am saying is that you should relax your bicep when you punch and relax your hamstrings when you kick.
Extend for the briefest nanosecond until the energy is released and then back into the optimum angle.

If you are not letting your limbs extend naturally then you are not fully relaxed , because you are using the biceps as a brake to stop your arm from reaching the full limit of its motion.
The only reason to do so would be to stop from damaging your partner , but in the air or on a pad just relax and let the striking limb fly out.

I think that there is a hell of a lot of misinformation out there about Wing Chun and I am not talking about you here wtxs , most of it is due to ignorance of the system and people trying to apply truisms that might be appropriate for other martial arts but in no way apply to Wing Chun.

I respect the reality of differences between lineages and even how each person's interpretation of what WC is within that same lineage.

I also agree ones limbs should be "relax" as possible, been it is one of the factors in achieving speed, combined with your mass and distant resulting in the levels of impact power.

Since I valued WC as an close in fighting system, I (just my take) use what my teacher called "short stroke" punch, cycling of the fist is very fast (visualize an piston riding on a crank shift with real low lope angle) the elbow needed not at full extension ... so to speak, but angled and down enough so the forearm is use to cut/deflect/control the attacking arm while the fist/palm is on its way to the face/head. Power is generated by the forward movement of the balanced structure (body as an unit), short/slight/sharp torque of the waist, up through shoulder, arm and out to the hand ... much like if not unlike the Fa Jing of other kung fu styles.

You are right about tons of BS information out there, I would rather stay true to what I've been taught, but I also give acceptance and try to learn from quality people of this forum, thank you all for that opportunity, and Mook for giving me space.:asian::asian::asian:

 

[mook jong man]

I respect the reality of differences between lineages and even how each person's interpretation of what WC is within that same lineage.

I also agree ones limbs should be "relax" as possible, been it is one of the factors in achieving speed, combined with your mass and distant resulting in the levels of impact power.

Since I valued WC as an close in fighting system, I (just my take) use what my teacher called "short stroke" punch, cycling of the fist is very fast (visualize an piston riding on a crank shift with real low lope angle) the elbow needed not at full extension ... so to speak, but angled and down enough so the forearm is use to cut/deflect/control the attacking arm while the fist/palm is on its way to the face/head. Power is generated by the forward movement of the balanced structure (body as an unit), short/slight/sharp torque of the waist, up through shoulder, arm and out to the hand ... much like if not unlike the Fa Jing of other kung fu styles.

You are right about tons of BS information out there, I would rather stay true to what I've been taught, but I also give acceptance and try to learn from quality people of this forum, thank you all for that opportunity, and Mook for giving me space.:asian::asian::asian:

Ok I see what you are getting at now , your talking about what we would describe as keeping your arm in the "optimum angle".
Anytime you are making contact with the opponents arms your arm should be in the "optimum angle".
But in our lineage once we have deflected the opponents punch , and it is safe to do so we will then expand our angle and hit through with our own strike.

You can see it a bit in this video where the guy because he is a beginner just keeps the angle to redirect the opponents straight punch with his Tan Sau , but at a later stage he would learn to then expand the angle and hit straight through.

The second video shows maintaining the optimum angle in Tan/Bong to deflect chain punching.

[video=youtube_share;UD0StiqF-gc]http://youtu.be/UD0StiqF-gc[/video]

[video=youtube_share;3xN71XK_g0E]http://youtu.be/3xN71XK_g0E[/video]

 

[poulperadieux]

Thanks a lot to make this subject live, I'll trys to add a response to any of you as soon as possible.

Like english talkin' forums, so much interesting participation.

Poulpe Radieux.

 

[mook jong man]

Thanks a lot to make this subject live, I'll trys to add a response to any of you as soon as possible.

Like english talkin' forums, so much interesting participation.

Poulpe Radieux.

No worries , how do you pronounce your name ?
About the only French persons name I can say is Gerard Depardieu.