1st Dan Breaking Requirements...

bignick

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just out of curiousity what does everyone use for boards...we do a 1 x 12 of #2 pine cut every 8 inches...
 

TigerWoman

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We use 1 x 10 x 12. usually #3 pine-its the knottiest, most resin filled, in other words, I think worst. #2 is more expensive but better The 10 is so the board for sure is held the right way-grain going the right way. Eight inches is for juniors age 12-15 only in tournaments. Usually they break adult boards though since we don't always cut them. After age 12, they have to break the adult size. My son was 12 when he had his bb test but my daughter was over-age at 15, so she had adult boards. The kid's size is 6" and they have no problem with that and breaking three of those sometimes, as they love flying sidekick. TW
 

Adept

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TigerWoman said:
Actually anybody with enough mass can power through a pile of boards alot easier than someone of 135lbs. and without much use of technique either. For a smaller person, it DOES take technique and DOES show power. Beside good technique you also have to have muscle to back up a power break especially for women and teens.
Yeah, but it only demonstrates the technique and power required to break a few boards. Hitting the human body, especially a large, angry, conditioned body intent on doing you damage is a very different thing.
 

MichiganTKD

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Well,

Barring walking into a biker bar to pick a fight, there really is no other way. Martial artists cannot go around knocking people's heads off and breaking ribs to test their technique. The philosophical and moral foundations of most styles forbid this.
Ironically, in Korea this was done for years before the Japanese outlawed Tae Kyon practice. One of the reasons why Tae Kyon/Tang Soo Do/Tae Kwon Do had a bad reputation in Korea. It was considered the province of thugs, gangsters, and troublemakers.
 

TigerWoman

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Adept said:
Yeah, but it only demonstrates the technique and power required to break a few boards. Hitting the human body, especially a large, angry, conditioned body intent on doing you damage is a very different thing.

It doesn't take much to break a knee or knee/ kick the groin, conditioned angry, or large. Less than a "few boards" or concrete. But we aren't talking self-defense here.

This is about Taekwondo board breaking and that technique and power do work to break boards. That' s as close to real as we test without damage. That is why we wear protective gear when we practice. TW
 

Makalakumu

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MichiganTKD said:
Well,

Barring walking into a biker bar to pick a fight, there really is no other way. Martial artists cannot go around knocking people's heads off and breaking ribs to test their technique. The philosophical and moral foundations of most styles forbid this.
Ironically, in Korea this was done for years before the Japanese outlawed Tae Kyon practice. One of the reasons why Tae Kyon/Tang Soo Do/Tae Kwon Do had a bad reputation in Korea. It was considered the province of thugs, gangsters, and troublemakers.

If I'm doing pad drills with a student and moving around and the student can still deliver power, I would say that is a much better measure of a student ability to deliver powerful technique.

I can't think of a more artificial situation to deliver power. Breaking is so static. Wait, focus, strike. I prefer more lively measures of a students power.

Also, hitting the heavy bag can be very telling.
 

FearlessFreep

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Like forms and sparring, breaking is just a part of practicing to improve and measure progress.

One thing breaking *does* give is measurement. Kicking a pad or a sparring partner gives a subjective measurement of how much power you think you delivered. Breaking only one board last week and two boards this week means you *have* improved your power.

Also, boards are hard; hogus and pads are soft. Breaking boards provides conditioning in ways that pads cannot.

Just different ways of practicing, of demonstraing power to yourself or others. Maybe artificial but everything is artificial in one way or another. Each method of training is artificial along some lines; the trick is to pick several ways of training so that was is artificial in one training approach is emphasized in another.
 

Makalakumu

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FearlessFreep said:
Like forms and sparring, breaking is just a part of practicing to improve and measure progress.

One thing breaking *does* give is measurement. Kicking a pad or a sparring partner gives a subjective measurement of how much power you think you delivered. Breaking only one board last week and two boards this week means you *have* improved your power.

Also, boards are hard; hogus and pads are soft. Breaking boards provides conditioning in ways that pads cannot.

Just different ways of practicing, of demonstraing power to yourself or others. Maybe artificial but everything is artificial in one way or another. Each method of training is artificial along some lines; the trick is to pick several ways of training so that was is artificial in one training approach is emphasized in another.

Good point about conditioning. My counter point is this, for good conditioning, you must do it every day. How many of us break every day?

There are degrees of artificiality...and in my opinion, breaking is more artificial then other measures of power.

And there are degrees of quality with the material one is attempting to break. I've seen students wail away at a single sap filled board trying everything they knew to break it. My instructor had to hit it with a flying side kick to finally do it in. Everyone in the dojang bowed to the valient board...

I can put a side kick through a number of boards of varying quality and everyone can see that the boards will be broken. But, if I wail a heavy kicking sheild with you behind it, you will feel the power...and then land on your butt! ;)

Good Discussion!

upnorthkyosa
 

FearlessFreep

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My counter point is this, for good conditioning, you must do it every day. How many of us break every day?

I was actually thinking more of the mental conditioning. Kicking a soft target and kicking a hard target are not the same sensation to get used to; even mentally to be prepared to kick through the target and shatter it; be it board or be it bone.

I can put a side kick through a number of boards of varying quality and everyone can see that the boards will be broken. But, if I wail a heavy kicking sheild with you behind it, you will feel the power...and then land on your butt!

but that's a bit subjective. If 'power as a demonstration of technique mastery' is to be used as a discriminator in advancing rank or failing, then some sort of "yes he did, no he didn't" measurement is needed; and breaking x numbers of boards can demonstrate that, because the board either broak, or didn't

Nothing is like hitting a chest to break a rib or hitting a leg to break a bone, except for actually doing it. This is somewhat discouraged in most places, so we see to break it down into elements that simulate some part of the real experience and do that, and hope the whole is as great as the parts.

A heavy bag is round, and doesn't have the angles of a human body and does nt move convincingly
A dummy on a wavemaster (Bob) has angles and curves and firmness but does not move or fight back
A sparring partner moves unpredictably, but wear protective gear and the rules are designed for saftey
A board resists different than cloth and padding, and shatters, but does not move defensively or aggressively like an opponent. It also is a small, focused target compared to a body or a bag.

All of them emulate really hitting a human in anger, all of them fall short along some manner, all of them taken together will come close.
 

Makalakumu

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Breaking is an art in itself. One of the things I enjoy about breaking is the precision. With some breaks, the control required to actually break the stuff depends on cms. Delivering power with that kind of accuracy is not easy.

Yet, if fluidity is part of your art...

FearlessFreep said:
I was actually thinking more of the mental conditioning. Kicking a soft target and kicking a hard target are not the same sensation to get used to; even mentally to be prepared to kick through the target and shatter it; be it board or be it bone.

If you are concerned about conditioning, physical conditioning becomes mental conditioning because it hurts. One becomes accustomed to pain after a while.

FearlessFreep said:
but that's a bit subjective. If 'power as a demonstration of technique mastery' is to be used as a discriminator in advancing rank or failing, then some sort of "yes he did, no he didn't" measurement is needed; and breaking x numbers of boards can demonstrate that, because the board either broak, or didn't.

It is not subjective to the holder. I will hold a shield for my students tell them to do a technique with all of their power.

FearlessFreep said:
Nothing is like hitting a chest to break a rib or hitting a leg to break a bone, except for actually doing it. This is somewhat discouraged in most places, so we see to break it down into elements that simulate some part of the real experience and do that, and hope the whole is as great as the parts.

In the same vien, nothing is like hitting a moving or live target. With pads, this can be simulated and power can be assessed.

FearlessFreep said:
A heavy bag is round, and doesn't have the angles of a human body and does nt move convincingly

A dummy on a wavemaster (Bob) has angles and curves and firmness but does not move or fight back

A sparring partner moves unpredictably, but wear protective gear and the rules are designed for saftey

A board resists different than cloth and padding, and shatters, but does not move defensively or aggressively like an opponent. It also is a small, focused target compared to a body or a bag.

All of them emulate really hitting a human in anger, all of them fall short along some manner, all of them taken together will come close.

At least we hope if we practice them all, it will come close. Among my peers, though, one of the biggest gaps in training I notice is the inability to deliver power with kicks or hand techniques on the move. THAT is realism. And I think this comes from the stop, focus, breath, and strike of breaking boards. That is what I mean by static.
 

bignick

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FearlessFreep said:
All of them emulate really hitting a human in anger...
I'd like to say something here. Every time I've seen somebody injure themselves breaking, it's been by becoming frustrated and angry and then trying to break the board. Sometimes, that's how the person mentally prepared themselves to do a break..."GET ANGRY". Other times, it's because they missed the break and became angry as a result. Regardless of how they arrived at that point, end result has usually been the same. They try to smash whatever it is they're trying to break with nothing but brute force powered by their anger. Anger clouds judgement and reasoning, also, if you're angry you're not focusing on the finer points of the mechanics behind the strike. So, you get angry, try to pulverize the target, something gets out of alignment or angled wrong, ending with you be being broken instead of the board or bricks. Perhaps it was just a poor choice of words on your part, but you should never hit something or someone in anger. You'll probably regret what you did to yourself, the object, or the person you hit.

When I break, the first thing I always do, is set up the whatever I'm breaking how I want it, maybe aim once or twice. Then, close my eyes, and just relax...zone out...meditate...whatever you prefer to call it. As soon as I feel relaxed enough, which has taken less and less time the longer I've been training, I immediately break. No thought, no worries, just hit. If I miss or it doesn't break, very rare, I take even longer to relax until I feel I'm ready. The biggest problem I see when people don't break is because they are so tense that they can barely move. Not only does relaxing allow you to move faster, but you hit harder, because you're muscles aren't fighting themselves. It's awfully hard to relax when you're angry.
 

FearlessFreep

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Every time I've seen somebody injure themselves breaking, it's been by becoming frustrated and angry and then trying to break the board

I probably should've chosen a better word. I didn't mean 'in anger' as in you are angry at the opponent, I just meant hitting them seriously because it matters
 

TigerWoman

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That's true, Bignick. Before I was in TKD, I used to tell my kids to imagine a bad guy and get angry. Well that worked for one of my son's breaks but not generally.

When I learned breaking, one type of break at a time, I analyzed the heck out of it to figure out what I had to do. I also learned that you have to be relaxed at first, then tense at the last moment, right at the time of breaking. Tense contracts your muscles, shortens them so the movement into the break is stiff, slow, not extended and often not focused. Deliver then tense. TW
 

bignick

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FearlessFreep said:
Every time I've seen somebody injure themselves breaking, it's been by becoming frustrated and angry and then trying to break the board

I probably should've chosen a better word. I didn't mean 'in anger' as in you are angry at the opponent, I just meant hitting them seriously because it matters
I had an idea that that is what you meant. But since you used the word "angry", I wanted to throw some of my two pennies out...not meant at all as an attack on your post, just something I felt needed to be said.

The other problem with using anger as fuel to accomplish a task is that if you do accomplish it the anger usually dissipates and disappears, but if you don't then it's still there, and you're even angrier and all that energy has no place to go. Not the best situation to be extremely angry with no safe place to channel it.
 

FearlessFreep

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.not meant at all as an attack on your post, just something I felt needed to be said.

And it was well said. I often get frustrated with myself when I feel I'm not doing something as well as I think I should and sometimes the emotion get the best of me and it makes it harder and it's a vicious cycle to get into.
 
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Spookey

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Dear All,

Just wanted to thank all that are contributing for the great debate I have read in the last five or six posts. Well delivered, disected, and responded to.

Good form all, lets keep it up!

TAEKWON!
Spookey
 

MichiganTKD

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The difference between testing your power on a bag or target vs. a board or cement block:

When you hit a sandbag with good speed, accuracy, penetrating force etc. the bag will do several things. It might lift up, it might fold around your foot, it will probably rebound in the direction it came from. All of this is useful, but slightly unsatisfying. The bag is also soft, and hitting it still doesn't give a tangible clue as to your ability.

When you hit a solid object like a board or a cement block, something we are not supposed to be able to break (hard cement against human flesh), and that object disintegrates against our foot, THAT is tangible proof that our technique might actually work. Pounding a sandbag is a good tool, but lots of people can hit a sandbag. When you do a sidekick and break 5 boards with it, how many people can do that? Granted, breaking materials can be doctored. But a good breaking demo is still amazing because if you miss, the potential for injury is great. If you hit a sandbag with improper technique, the worst that will happen is a sprained wrist. If you hit a stack of boards or cement blocks with bad technique, you will seriously hurt yourself. And that's the point. To show power against a stack of blocks and not get hurt.
 

bignick

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Just as far as doctoring materials...bake wood and bricks in an oven, wrap a rope around the neck of a bottle and burn it off to make it easy to break, you can freeze defects into ice...this will all make it much easier to break the material...

But you've just cheated yourself and should feel no pride or accomplishment from doing it...
 

TigerWoman

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Bignick, I like your new pic! Our testing materials are usually what is left over from tournament...the dregs, the absolutely most resiny, knotty rejects. So after several tournaments I got wise and saved a few at the beginning of the sale, for tests especially for the younger ones. Boards are so unequal, I always tried to pick out the boards at the tournaments for the smaller people. But it usually is first come first serve and why does everyone come at the last minute--well there's the drive and the parents. ;) TW
 
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