Zenjael's intervention

Discussion in 'The Great Debate' started by Zenjael, Apr 22, 2012.

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  1. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Have you read his other threads and posts?
     
  2. K-man

    K-man Grandmaster

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    I'm really not sure you would like that. :eye-popping:
     
  3. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Alex sounds like a young lad who doesn't mean any harm but is like a puppy bounding all over us wanting us to pet him and like him so he exaggerates his prowess because he wants to be up there with the good guys. He doesn't have to do this, he sounds likable and keen on martial arts, now he's dropped the odd writing style, it's easier to read what he writes and we can all have good discussions if he'll just be himself, we don't have to be impressed or amazed, we are prepared to like anyone who comes here and give them a fair go. Drop the BS and I'm sure there will be interesting discussions and information shared. I htink in my current mood I'll moderate myself a bit for a couple of days so I'm off to make chicken soup!!
     
  4. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Master of Arts

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    Somehow, this image came to mind

    [​IMG][/IMG]
     
  5. Grenadier

    Grenadier Administrator Staff Member

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    Let's see, you were drunk, and somehow managed to keep a good poker face, all while intimidating the bad guys with a cold stare. Sorry, but looking at your video, you aren't exactly one who radiates an aura of fear. You don't look intimidating at all. If you packed on 30 pounds of solid muscle, maybe that would be a different story...
     
  6. Zenjael

    Zenjael Purple Belt

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    If someone pulls a gun or knife on someone, it becomes very black and white. Your pick- allow something bad to happen, you could stop... or act, and be judged by 12, or carried by 6. It is exactly the color people choose to see it as. It's grey until lethality enters the scene, and to me, that is black and white. While I abhor hurting others, if somebody attempted to kill me, I'd do everything I could to do it to them first.

    Thank you for referring to me like that... I suppose.

    When do you think I have ever gone looking for a fight? Does that even seem reasonable when you're typing to somebody 5'4"?

    Have I had altercations? Sure, but I've always been attacked. Eesh, I don't think I've ever gone looking for physical confrontation when either verbal, or moving on would suffice. And even then, let's say your hypothetical me does go and initiate a confrontation... I'd say that person was the aggressor then. They need no help... unless the others are trying to kill that person in response. In which case their own ignorance and lack of maturity got them into the situation.

    Would you let the blind man walk off the cliff? I wouldn't. Likewise, every situation is contextual. If someone is attacked by a fist, and they pull a knife in response, well we can see who the real agressor is, then. And I think you get my point- upping the ante is not the correct thing to do. If a fight is in store, I tend to leave as quickly as possible. The last thing I need is an assault charge keeping me from enlisting, no matter what intentions I had.

    While you do much to judge me based on my word- you do little based on my actual actions. *shrug*.

    I don't really mind, but if you are going to use me in an example as a poorly illustrated straw man, at least use relevant comparisons. And I say that because there is no relevance to what you said... apart from saying you wouldn't help another based on the circumstances leading up to the situation. Just saying, as Zenjael, your hypothetical, that's how it came off to me, and will come off to people reading independently.
     
  7. WC_lun

    WC_lun Senior Master

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    Once again you show your immaturity. Its not bad, you are still a young man and it is expected. However, if someone pulls a gun or knife it becomes a quagmire of grey, not black and white. More than ever your actions will effect not only your own life, but many others. It isn't like the movies where the good guy isn't afraid, the assaulter is just a punk, there's no repurcussions for violence, and the good guy always wins. The best thing to do is NOT play the hero. Your goal is to escape as unharmed as possible, so choices must be evaluated damn fast and acted on just as fast. Violence is a choice, but not neccesarily the correct one, even when confronted with a weapon...maybe especially if a weapon is pulled. Just because you know some martial arts does not mean you would escape without injury. You are not superman. This is advice I have given many young men. Again, you are not superman. The minute you act in a confrontation as if you are superman, someone will reveal your krypnonite.

    I have come to despise that phrase "better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6." How about the third choice, which is niether. I think going home to hug my wife is better than those two options. Violence sometimes happens, despite every effort to avoid it. When it happens, you do your best to survive it. Rarely, even for people who deal with violence on an every day basis does is come down to killing. Very rarely does it come down to kill or be killed. This mindset seems to be a reflection of violence and martial arts from fantasy, like movies or books. When you post about killing people, it is clear you do not know what it means to end a life, or you are a psycopath who cannot feel for others.

    Many of your post have shown your youth. The stories you have share show an innocence of what the real world is like and the effects of violence, either neccesary or not. Have you ever realy hurt someone? I'm not talking about a bloody nose or a black eye in a school yard tussel. I'm talking about ambulance and police are called type injuries. Even if you harm someone in self defense, it is an eye opener when you hear them in pain and see what you've actually done to them. It isn't a freaking movie. You go through a gambit of emotions and the adrenaline in your system speeds it all up. If your a decent person there is even sorrow for the guy you just injured. Then you get to deal with the legal part of it. Even if you were acting in self defense, liklihood is you'll spend a few minutes in hand cuffs talking to an officer about what happened. If you're lucky there will be witnesses to back you up, because you probably aren't gonna be very detail orientated at that moment. The whirlwind cocktail of the cops, ambulance, the guy you just injured, your emotions, and coming down off the adrenaline make it difficult. Its not a fun time, nor is it very heroic. So when you post your stories and give your advice about what the movie version of you would do, it kinda rings hollow.

    I'm not trying to hurt your feeling. Others have posted similar things to you. I'm telling you what I am telling you from my greater experience. Please listen. There are people here who have great advice for you. Perhaps you even have a great experience in martial arts in the future. You certainly have the excitement for the arts. Maybe one of the folks here will be the one to help guide you in the martial arts. However, if you keep acting like you know everything and insuting people by posting/saying things that are blatantly not true, you will shrink the pool of those that will help and guide you. I have had students very similiar to you in the past. Some have changed and grown. Most I do not know how they are because I choose not to share what I know with guys who act like they already know ewhat I am sharing and aren't willing to just hush and open up thier ears. Something for you to think about, please.

    For everyone else, sorry about the wall o' text. :)
     
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  8. Zenjael

    Zenjael Purple Belt

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    I think I've posted better to be juged by twelve than carried by six, more than twice, I could be wrong, but for that very reason.

    Now put yourself in my shoes. My girlfriend was there while the altercation was playing out with an attempted robbery. You're saying I shouldn't have done what I could to ensure her safety, when they were looking right at her, she their focus? What if they pointed a gun, told her to get in a car? What then?

    This entire thread is based on the hypothetical confrontation occurring. You shouldn't go looking to be a hero, but if someone points a gun at you, or tells you to get on the ground, you better be prepared to forget your self-defense training, or to use it, when the right opportunity comes. And there are many.

    Which, if they pull a gun, is not likely to happen in my book. If someone pulls any weapon, I am assuming I am going to die. I am also planning to do everything to keep that from happening. Because... in the end we're talking about two different situations. You're referring to where a person has pulled the gun, but not made clear intent he is going to kill you. I'm talking about when they pull the weapon, and it is clear you will die if you don't do something. And there is a difference. The former, your advice is the more practical, and sensible. The latter, you will die because of it.

    Agreed, hence why people shouldn't focus on instinctual response for self-defense. But, as one person put it to me, you should focus on the ability to react quickly to the point it is an instinct, but from there are still able to choose, in that speed of time, what course of action to take. Hence why agree violence is a choice- you choose, one way or another, what you will do.

    Violence is a choice, but not neccesarily the correct one, even when confronted with a weapon...maybe especially if a weapon is pulled. Just because you know some martial arts does not mean you would escape without injury. You are not superman. This is advice I have given many young men. Again, you are not superman. The minute you act in a confrontation as if you are superman, someone will reveal your krypnonite.

    I concur with what you write which follows after this, but I think we're talking about two different things. What happens when the person cocks the gun, and IS about to fire. Or even more obvious, what happens when the person who pulled the knife, moves toward you, raising it. Sure, if someone pulls a knife, and doesn't go up to stab you, chances are good they don't really want to. But I'm talking about the crazies who will strike without warning, who will attack without provocation, and even those who will. I'm talking about when we've moved from a pulled knife, to a raised one, coming at you.

    I think going home to hug my wife is better than those two options. Violence sometimes happens, despite every effort to avoid it. When it happens, you do your best to survive it. Rarely, even for people who deal with violence on an every day basis does is come down to killing. Very rarely does it come down to kill or be killed. This mindset seems to be a reflection of violence and martial arts from fantasy, like movies or books. When you post about killing people, it is clear you do not know what it means to end a life, or you are a psycopath who cannot feel for others.

    Absolutely. Not proud of it, but I'd do it again. When mugged I stabbed a kid with his own knife, and I've hated that action for a long time since. I'm the kind of person who when walking, after it's rained pick up every earthworm along my route and move them from the sidewalk, to shade. You are right, hearing those you have hurt is among the worst sounds you will experience, when you are still a compassionate person at heart.

    No worries there, I'm happy for your input.

    I think it a foolish assumption from anyone to assume they already know what the person has to offer. I think it also a foolish assumption for the teacher not to see what they can learn from their student, also. Both have something to offer, and both need each other for their respective roles to exist.

    The idea that there is a 'superior' who is your teacher, and likewise, a student your 'inferior' is to me a silly notion because it reduces the roles of student and teachers to pariahs who feed off each other, as opposed to the beneficial symbiosis it actually is, between sincere students, and caring teachers.

    There's a reason one reaches a point where they can no longer grow from just doing the techniques, but they must share them also to do so. Not because they have so much to offer, but because there come's a point where you need to stop doing, and start thinking. Which is what teaching forces a person to do- to learn how to think outside their own box. There are many people who are awesome practitioners, and terrible teachers. But with another, what works for the teacher will not always for the student. So we are forced to step into their perspective, even if just in part, and re-tackle the problem, so that they may see a way for themselves to also.

    And while the student may grow from this (one should hope), the teacher should as well, as much so, again.
     
  9. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Master of Arts

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    Zenjael, that post is really hard to read, you can't tell what's from you and what's from WC Lun. Please get to grips with the quote function. It's only a matter of copying and pasting [ QUOTE ] and [ /QUOTE ] before and after the bits that other people have said, or highlighting the text and clicking the speech bubble on the toolbar. It'll make it so much easier for everyone else if you do the work, rather than expecting us to wade through your stream of consciousness to try and extract a semblance of meaning.
     
  10. Kinghercules

    Kinghercules Blue Belt

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    I agree.
     
  11. oishiisuika

    oishiisuika White Belt

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    I know this is a bit late in the game, but after hearing about Alex's telling of the 7-11 story and everyone's subsequent disbelief, I felt it necessary to throw in my two cents.

    I happen to be one of those witnesses. More specifically,

    That's me; the girlfriend in the line of fire. With that in mind, here's my version of events:

    While perusing the snacks near the register and Alex at the back of the store, three men burst in, two wearing ski masks and the third with his hood up and jacket zipped/pulled up; my back was to them, but I turned when one of them shouted, "Everybody get down on the ground!" Two thoughts went very quickly through my head; the first was, "Oh sh---", closely followed by, "What is Alex doing/planning on doing about this?"

    So I took my eyes off of the potientially very dangerous men, who were watching me rather carefully, seeing as how I was closest to them and - let's face it - an apparently easy target (young white woman), and looked instead to the back of the store, turning my attention completely off of a potiential threat to my life.

    I think they saw it much the same way: if I, an apparent easy target, was less threatened by them and more worried about someone else in the store, clearly there was a bigger threat than them.

    Now, before I go on: yes, Alex was intoxicated. Whether he could or couldn't have done something simply doesn't matter, because of the simple fact that he was looking them dead in the eye with no apparent concern for his own safety. (Yes, I'm blaming this on the intoxication--- but it stopped the situation nonetheless.)

    Following my change of attention, the men looked over at Alex, and after a moment of contemplation, one says, "Yo man, that guy looks like he's about to do something."
    Suddenly, threat diffused.

    The started pulling off their masks, trying to laugh it off; "Haha, that was a joke," and, "Nah, man, we were kidding."
    Joking about robbing a 7-11 less than half a mile from a police station? I have no idea what was going through those guys' heads.

    Anyhow, that's my version of things. I'm not looking to stir anything up, but I did want to help set the record straight. Bottom line, regardless of whether or not Alex could have stopped them, the simple fact that they were planning on walking in there, robbing everyone with no challenge, and walking out and yet they met a barrier in the form of not one, but two, people clearly not threatened by them... that's what stopped the situation: sometimes standing firm in the face of danger is enough to get rid of said danger. Sometimes, mind you. Not always.

    Cheers-
     
  12. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Thank you so much for sharing, now as we were saying........
     
  13. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Master of Arts

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    Lols. Tumbleweed.
     
  14. Supra Vijai

    Supra Vijai Black Belt

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    So you feared for your life but turned your back to three masked aggressors? That police station moved awful quick from being across the road to half a mile away, perhaps Alex stared them down and they decided to leave before he did something? There was a post earlier joking about Alex being superman, but you seem to actually believe it if your first thought when in danger is to look at him for help.. I'm with Tez on this - thanks for the post I guess but yeah...
     
  15. Zenjael

    Zenjael Purple Belt

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    Kaila has next to no training, cannot blame her for any fault in reacting. It might surprise you, but there is a heavy mythos about 'black belts' thanks to movies. You cannot blame general populace for having that view, when the most expensive action box office breadwinners are are oft excellent, rare martial artists, who have incredible skill, and make it seem like every black belt does.

    I'm not saying I agree with it, just putting it out there, that it is something to take into consideration, when that kind of belief is specifically why Kaila turned to look at me, away from them. If Bas Rutten were in the building in a hold up, I might perchance a peak to see what he's doing- I'd follow his example, honestly. Be it running at the desk, or dropping hard to the ground. I'm sure he'd do the latter, right?

    It is across the street from that 711. Let me link you the mapquest directions.

    http://www.mapquest.com/
    6140 Rolling Rd,Springfield, VA 22152-1522 (police station)
    6221 Rolling Rd, Traford Ln, West Springfield, VA 22152-1637

    It's actually about .2 mile away. Saying .5 is rather generous, I'd say, with that information.

    I posted on here, because Kaila let me know she wrote her post.

    But also to say, as an answer to the op, yes, I would.

    Not superman, just a martial artist with cajones. I'm 22, and brash, but also quite capable when push comes to shove. I have a lot to learn, and I will, but I also have a rather event filled life, whether I choose for it to be or not, and that does tend to turn you into a person capable of dealing from situations like this, and walking away. We aren't dealing with the hypothetical WHAT IF, we are dealing with what actually happened, in a situation the basis of a lot of hypotheticals.

    People in this thread, and another, told me they would get this matter resolved, so the matter could be brought to the attention of authorities to be taken seriously. Again, I would like it to be.

    They've been kind enough to drop my wallet off twice, to my house, so I doubt it'd be hard to call or stop by to get my account, and let me know they will police the 711 more heavily, hopefully 24-7. There is a nightly assault there, and they do nothing. It makes me sick to my heart, because this is my hometown, where I've lived for 17 years. I can't stand to see it treated like that, by our very own police force. But this isn't movie kind of crap- I have to live with it daily, and so do my family, and fellow townspeople; should I choose to go there at night and get a slurpee. That seems wrong, when the police are less than a mile away. I used to work across the street, and I live a mile away. I do not live in a ghetto, but the police do need to start actually doing their job and protecting us... so that we don't have to be put in a situation like what me and Kaila were, where we do stand up for ourselves.
     
  16. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Master of Arts

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    Oh. Dear. God. No further comment.
     
  17. clfsean

    clfsean Senior Master

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    So much ******** is flying about... This is what happens when Dracula goes emo...

    Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2
     
  18. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    Im still just merrily drinking Lemonade and enjoying these debates.
     
  19. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    I'm bored and grumpy as my nights plans have been cancelled. That said....

    Utter garbage.

    You had three men, two masked, "burst in" and demand everyone get on the floor, and you wondered "What is Alex planning on doing?" Garbage.

    Alex is a scrawny, short, unimpressive and unimposing 22 year old kid, but you looked to him expecting him to act against three aggressive robbers who were potentially armed? Garbage.

    Outnumbering a scrawny, short, unimposing and unimpressive 22 year old who isn't dropping to the ground, these three aggressive guys say "Yo man, that guy looks like he's about to do something" and give up?!?! Complete garbage. He'd get punched in the face and dropped with a broken nose.

    Without any interference from the police (who are very close, although there is conjecture as to how close...), these three guys in the middle of the night decide that scrawny, short, unimpressive and unimposing Alex is enough to get them to give up on their plans for robbing the place? Complete and utter garbage.

    They then remove their masks (now revealing their identity to potential witnesses who can identify them to the police across the road), and try to laugh it off?!? Rather than leave with their identity safe? Are you serious in your report here? Complete and utter garbage.

    There isn't a single person here who believes Alex's story. You really haven't added anything to increase it's credibility either, you realise. Now, I have myself stopped attacks without it getting physical, basically with what equates to a stare-down, and there is not a single element of Alex's story or your rendition of it that rings true.

    Who are you really?

    Uh, no. Having "next to no training" doesn't mean that she'd expect you to be an awesome JCVD/Bruce Lee/Chuck Norris hybrid with Steven Seagal's ponytail. And I really don't know where to start with the idea that the "most expensive action box office breadwinners are oft (Godsdammit, Alex, the word is "often", "oft" doesn't make any damn sense there, you've been told that repeatedly!) excellent, rare martial artists..." Uh, no, they're really not. The vast majority are really only good at following choreography and having good stunt doubles. And the modern audience is really savvy enough to tell the difference. If you're not, well....

    "Perchance" is completely incorrectly used there. "Peak" is the top, or pinnacle of an object... "peek" is "to glance, to sneak or steal a view". Dude, get a dictionary. And sadly, that's the best and most positive comment I can make out of the mess of this paragraph.

    Right. Because the entire credibility of your story rests on where you say the police station is (across the road... even though it took over an hour for police to arrive... you couldn't have just gone over there while the gangs were having their "altercation", instead you told the clerk to commit a felony [make a false report/statement to the police in order to get them to come over]? Do you actually think these claims through?)....

    I've seen you in action. You really shouldn't.

    No, you're a kid with a false sense of importance and an overblown ego. And so long as you remain such, you won't learn anything. You certainly don't seem to have learnt anything here so far.

    No, they offered to help you. Have you taken them up on it, or are you just expecting them to do it all for you, just to clear your poor besmirched name (see, you can use big words when you understand them...).

    A nightly assault? An assault every night? Across the road from the police station? And they haven't noticed? Methinks you are stretching reality beyond breaking point a bit.

    Right, to the OP, as long as I'm here.

    Would I help? Perhaps. I can't give a definite answer, as it would depend on what the circumstances were. If it's screams coming from next door, the first thing I'd do is call the police and advise them... same if I saw anything suspicious happening nearby. To illustrate that, one night I noticed some people going up and down my street with torches, looking through all the gardens and yards, checking front doors etc. So I called the police... and it turned out that the police were the ones with the torches, looking for someone else.

    If I saw someone beating up someone else, again it's nice to think that you'd interfere and stop it, but that's not really always the best plans either. A former senior in our school did step in when he saw a guy hitting his girlfriend... and the girlfriend started hitting him with her shoe, screaming at him for attacking her boyfriend!

    In short, I will do my best to stay aware of what's going on, and engage if I have to, but rarely otherwise. Then again, certain circumstances can thrust you into a place where you feel compelled to.
     
  20. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    Howdy.

    And so few people realise this simple fact, and assume that the Police exist to serve the common people. I am pleased that You know this.

    Especially since the more likely reaction would be fear, and not wondering what someone else is doing.

    Personally, expecting anyone to spring into action under those circumstances, unless cornered, is... Im not drawing a good word here. Implausible, I guess.

    Its a funny thought though.
    Thats the part where I for one call BS. The rest is a stretch, but thats way out there.

    Thats the real question.

    Robberies dont usually put anyone in a line of fire, so long as they stay out of the way, and keep their heads down. Robberies are different to attempted murders.

    As previously stated, nonsense. Mostly for one reason: Three dudes walked in, all covered up, and didnt threaten anyone in any way? They just demanded that They get down on the ground? If I tried that at a Store, Ski Mask or no, everyone would just look at Me funny.

    This is sounding awefully like a poorly written film. So, they just stood there, and watched You, whilst You looked at Alex? The Human Brain doesnt work that way, unless You possess a rather dependant personality, or crutch on the person.

    Not so. Theyd probably just be interested in what You were looking at, since the only customers thatre ultimately a threat to a group of thieves is the ones Theyre unaware of. They didnt think, "Oh my god. She looked away from Me. There must be a really scary dude back there."

    Cool.

    So, so far:
    The group of 3 walk in.
    Without threatening anyone with anything, They yell out to get on the ground.
    Alex is just, like, standing there staring this whole time.
    They take the time to watch You, then see You look at Him, then look at Him, then say that the guy whos just standing there at the opposite end of the store looks like Hes about to do something, and the Threat was diffused?

    So after everything above, They remove Their masks, and start laughing and talking about how it was all a joke.

    Two people? Who was the second person, You? Because You stood there and looked at someone at the opposite end of the Store?

    Now the dance begins.

    Apparently that pertained to standing there and looking at Her look at You.
    Its a robbery. Not a manhunt. Last I checked, anyway.
    Youre not Superman. Apparently Youre a Martial Artist with Cojones. Also, arent You meant to die if someone pulls a Weapon?

    What kind of gun? Fun fact: Semiautomatic Handguns do not need to be cocked. Fun fact: The majority of firearms You see being carried around by Police and Criminals, unless its different in the USA, are Semi Automatic Handguns.
    Little too much television. People are more likely to walk right up then shank Your guts out than raise the knife. Additionally, They wont stand in front of You and make it that obvious. That virtually doesnt happen.

    You literally just said that if someone pulls a weapon, You expect to die.
    Again with the weird distrotion between You saying things that are quite ok, then just coming to weird, or false, conclusions. Its... weird. Is what it is.

    Now, Im going to swing some hammers. You may end up disliking Me for this, Good Sir.

    So, people who resort to violence immediately are cowards? That sounds more like a meek way to try and justify not resorting to it. Theres an element of personal choice involved.

    Inconsistency No. 1.
    I thought they took their masks off, and tried to say that it was all a joke?

    They were hardly going to storm in and randomly gun You down. They did, after all, walk in and say that they wanted everyone to get down.

    Again: Didnt they take their masks off and all that?

    I thought this happened every night?

    There was no risk presented. Just three dudes who walked in with covered faces, demanding that everyone get down. They then looked at You, then took their masks off and laughed about it. Superserious.

    Usually thatll get You shot, for not hearing them out. Normally, theyre just robbing You, or the place. If they want You dead, Theyll shoot You. If You try and run, They become more, not less, likely to persue.

    But You dont live in a ghetto, right?




    All of the above, is mostly Me putting up the best anvil possible. Im not going to add more. Everyone here is perfectly capable of debating amongst themselves. Im just keeping things in focus, drinking Lemonade, and just perceiving things as Theyre presented to Me. Have fun.
    FYI, this took Me all of 6 minutes to type up.
     
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