Yee Chuan Tao

[Flatlander]

That is interesting. Wouldn't it be something if sifu's, masters, and grandmasters from all different styles could face off and see who's who and what's what? That'll never happen
Too bad.

Mike

No, it probably won't. But it would be super cool to watch.

 

[grappling_mandala]

That is interesting. Wouldn't it be something if sifu's, masters, and grandmasters from all different styles could face off and see who's who and what's what? That'll never happen
Too bad.

Mike

I think it would be better then the matrix reloaded highway chase scene. BUT...

... probably never happen. It would only breed competition and division because of the effects of "entertainment" on modern public discourse.

What kind of ESPN highlight video could you get from two masters touching hands then kindly smiling to one another after a moments reflection. Never revealing to anyone outside themselves who the 'winner' was. This is not the blood that pay per view viewers order into their reality. Violence sells.

The first few UFC's were cool though! All the different 'styles' faced off. This is before the 'hybrid' fighters of today. Gotta love the early ones where everyone was into their own styles and lineages... and with the neglect of ONE range.... and all those "standup" fighters fell victim to a single grappler.

Dave in Oregon

 

[Sifu Mike]

Dave, you know that those early UFC fights were geared for the ground fighters. The Grace family owed all the rights to UFC in those days and they made sure who got in the cage could not beat a Grace. That's not to say they are not a great fighting family but if you fight people who just do forms and know nothing of ground fighting its a "lamb to the slaught"
When I was fighting "No Rules" ment "No Rules" no mats, no padded cage, no gloves, no time limites, no weight class and no referee. I only weighed 175 most of the guy I fought were at least 200. I had a big advantage because most people back then in the early seventies never even heard of Chinese Boxing. Most of them were just very tough guys trying to make a fast buck. I have to say I fought only a handful of what I would consider martial artist.

Mike (RHD)

The way I teach YCT is to first teach the student to stand in the Wu Chi stance to feel and find their balance. From there I work on having them feel their partner's balance through Pushing Hands and Balistic Drills. Next, fundamental kicks like front thrust, side thrust and hand positions like Fist, Knife,Tiger's Mouth and Dragon's Tail. It is a matter of building a strong foundation and from there I get into the animal movements. I believe that it is up to the student to decide which animal works best for them. Not many takers on the reindeer though. LOL

Sifu Mike

 

[Thundering Mantis]

Dear Kung Fu Brothers and Sisters,

Before I formally introduce myself as a new member of this forum, I would like to express that as your fellow kung fu brother, a fellow brother who shares a lineage with you all, I am deeply offended and saddened by reading this message string. T

This message string began with a legitimate question,

http://www.unitedmartialartists.org/vendrell/

I was wondering if anyone here practices or has even heard of Yee Chuan Tao Kung Fu? Is it the same as Yee Chuan Kung Fu? The above site is the only Kung Fu school in my area, and I was wondering if it's a legit art to take up.

and from that question others' curiosity spurned, whichforth brough out some rude remaks from a few people.....

I am terribly appalled

It does not befit people of Shaolin lineage to address their peers and seniors in such rude manner with outright snide comments and a fececious undertone of prejustice. However in all fairness I do believe that Mike [RHD] would probably not speak out in such a manner if he had the chance to meet Sigung Vendrell in person, I imagine he would address himself more politely when asking such important questions.

I have been online since 1995 and had my share of heated discussions in the early days on other forums (besides martial arts), and I'll tell you that what I see here is typical of newslists and forums, there's alot of subtle flaming (defamation), Ignorant posting, and some outright insulting comments on this forum. All of which break Internet ethics, and moreover, are insulting to Shaolin Philosophy and the honor of all the warriors who came before us both living and dead. I suggest before you reply to my post you read the whole string again, from the beginning, analyze the language, not the argument... then you will see the wrong doings in your writings. The questions are valid, some of the answers that were posted may be vague to you but I will try to clarify things later on in this post. RHD, pay special attention to the posts on pages 5 and 6, your answers lie within some of the most amazingly articulated writings on martial arts there, (some noteworthy of the asian journal of martial arts).

Now before I go on, I must state an observation about internet culture... (I believe 7sm also mentioned something along the lines of this)
Internet savvy people are generally skeptical because they are seekers of knowledge, but to be a proper seeker of knowledge in any field (let alone a martial way) one must keep an open mind and always go as close as possible to the source to find the truth, reading articles and webpages can't always be enough. Either find out what you need to know directly from the source or look for worthy secondary material reviews from students, associations with other sifus etc. As far as I am concerned, you all should have had your answers by doing more research and listening to what has been written by some of your peers on this forum.. If you managed to read the spectacular posts of pages 5 and 6 your questions should be answered , but just in case some of you are still looking for more documented web stuff I can offer you a few things.

I don't mean to pick on Mike [RHD] only, if you read back his first post was written in a more gentle inquisitive manner but as more people started jumping on the bandwagon he got to be very offensive. Although you may deny mocking people, Mike [BHD] you did single yourself out as pretty rude when expressing your frustration and anger towards Sigong Vendrell's students, I couldn't believe that you were even so disrespectful towards Sigong Vendrell himself,even over a matter of true historical fact, basically calling him a liar, being ignorant enought to say that this historical event can't be proven, that he's using a historical event to fabricate a lie about his lineage? You are denying Sigong Vendrells right to his own memories? Or are you calling his Teacher or someone along the line of his family a liar? Are you denying the fact that a father mourned over his son's death? In the purest sense of logic, It doesn't matter if you don't believe Sigong Vendrell's life story, he's living it, you're not.

RHD, Mike, you really wrote some shameful remarks, somewhat denying history itself with your ignorant plea, for forum members to not believe someone who claims a historical event is the reasoning of the outcome of events in his own REALITY.

Go and Rent "The secret of the warriors power -ep 1" or wait for it to rotate back on the discovery channel. On that documentary you'll see video footage of thousands of boxers lined up for execution upon orders of the new communist regime, including footage of their executions. Read about the Cultural Revolution of Communist China. It might clear up some doubts you have.

I think some members of this forum owe the students of the Vendrell Martial Arts Centre an apology. I believe you also owe Sifu Mike Vendrell an apology, as each of us are entitled to knowing our own memories and knowing ourselves and our experiences... He graciously wrote his post to answer your questions and you still continued on with the badgering.

If you read the hawaii newspaper article in .pdf form you should also have read the Kung Fu Magazine article as well (if you want to question the credibility of the author, contact him yourself, don't do it in this thread, please, call him yourself and raise your ruckus there)... if you read it you would know that Sigong Vendrell became a Christian at 19 and gave up the underground fight scene, I don't think that he likes to talk about it, let alone boast about it. This man is about love, peace and harmony but people will remember the feats of his youth and will write about it if they were in the business of writing in the mass media, (sensastionalism sells newspapers). It is a good article though, I can see why it has raised your questions [BHD], obviously it is a fantastic claim, but you know you aren't familiar with the underground fight circuit of L.A. way back in the day, so your only way of finding out how good Sigong Vendrell is on the mat is by visiting his mat, as a student. It's hard to tell what he's doing in the video if you're not an internal stylist. But studying external systems for long enough time you should be able to recognize proper combat techniques when you feel them, however your distance from Hawaii might be far... so you shouldn't make judgements of Sigung Vendrell's ability by stating that he looks non grounded etc. because you lack the eye for an internal style, and you've never seen footage of him applying his technique... so if you're so intrigued with his fighting ability, either take the word of people that have experienced his teachings or go and check out him and his students for yourself.

Now this post from earlier today, the one with single phrase replys written in large bold fonts, the internet equivalent of yelling at a person.. very sad... and you've admitted that you are rude, but you then made an excuse for yourself by saying you hate being politically correct.

I too hate being PC, I'm probably a tad bit too liberal for the likings of most conservative people, but I respect the values of honour and tradition.
you have to understand, that we are priviliged people to be studying under a true lineage, and we should hold up the standards of respect, dignity and humility passed down from our Sifus into all our interactions with all people. without respecting others and respecting ourselves we'd just be meatheads and thugs.

As for any of you who still continue to doubt the legitimacy of the Sifus at the Welcome Mat, after reading my entire post, if you still harbor doubt, your only way of legitimizing answers to your questions is to seek the truth for your self by going to Hawaii and seeing for yourself. And leave it at that.

For now I will just quote some of the rude remarks, it would be too long of a post if i did them all, it's up to you to read the past posts.

No reply yet:
Must be looking up an encyclopeida of martial arts to figure out which one's to list...
Mike

You wouldn't consider this a rude mockery?

Did anybody check out the "hoop" form? What the heck is that thing? It looks like the Klingon sword from "Star Trek".

This snide one comes from a place of ignorance, the Klingon sword is based on an existing chinese weapon called Heaven and Earth Blade, check it out

http://www.gungfu.com/pics_general/pics_weapons/weapon_heaven_and_earth_blade.jpg

The hoop does indeed resemble this weapon in some way, but the curvature of the hoop makes it something entirely different in its self. Anyone who's played extensively with a staff couldn't even imagine the avenues of movement (and combat application - if you wish) that would be explored through this unique shape, it would be hard to know unless you had a chance to get one in your hands.

Yee Chuan Tao=red
Taekwondo=green
Mantis=yellow
Judo=blue
Kendo=purple
5 animal forms=pink
Jiu Jitsu=orange
Chin Na=white
Tai Chi=black

Mix them all togehter and you get Brown, the color of mud. Again I have to question whether your sifu is really a master of all these systems. This is only 9 out of a supposed 23. Sorry folks, I think you're buying into the hype. It's a strange quality about student-instructor loyalty: Students will believe almost anything thier instructor tells them. I know this from personal experience. The truth is out there and I think as students you should have the right to know it.
Mike

This is obnoxious and rude. It does not befit someone who's been studying Traditional Chinese Martial Arts for 14 yrs. All People in Shaolin lineage learn spiritual values within their training, Shaolin philosophy is always taught to disciples, it's a strong part of our lineage. Would your Sifu be proud of such arrogant behaviour?



QUOTE=7starmantis]I want to do this objectivly and not offend.

There were a few things that struck me as odd.
"Students learn concepts, and train their ballistic reflexes in order to create an art suited to their individual needs."
As far as kung fu goes, that is very strongly against the norm for CMA systems.


Not true, almost all kung fu system's I've seen use ballistic drills to teach the 4 basic principles of avoid, redirect, strike, set-up
You should know this as a mantis practitioner that there are many 2 person drills within the diverse mantis systems. All of these exercises are considered ballistic drills, if it's training your reflexes, it's a ballistic drill.


"I watched the mantis video. The only thing I can say about it is that he lacks a rooted stance in any of the forms. There seems to be a lack of application in the techniques. I see alot of flashy pretty stuff, but its high unbalanced stances. He is very smooth but his kicks and punches are not extended as to give more fluidity. None of the kicks had application behind them. I don't think he has no skill, it just doesn't look to be applicable as far as fighting. Very pretty, and nicly performed, but I see no application in it.

Let me say, I'm no expert. I have studied CMA since I was a kid, and mantis for the last few years. I'm in the lineage of masters such as Raymond Fogg, Henry Chung, Lee Kam Wing, Chan Poi, Chu Leun. Having sat under most of them for seminars and such, I can see a huge difference in thier forms from what I saw on the video. Again though, my expertise is in 7* mainly and I'm not extremely familure with Tai Mantis, especially his system he created.

7sm[/QUOTE]

7sm, a mantis brother, I do feel offended, and I'll pass on the message my Sifu is offended aswell, I believe you might be talking out of ignorance here. You have been polite yes, but you jumped the gun too soon - fuelling the fire some further.

At this point, you brought the argument along to question the integrity of Sifu Rob Moses as well, thus bringing an attack upon the integrity of both teachers of the school. Although you treaded softly you should have done more research. On the official website, You can see Sifu Rob doing Bumbo (traditional mantis set), see for yourself, and yes he moves in the typical fluid way of a tai-mantis sifu, with his own personality shining through.

http://www.unitedmartialartists.org/vendrell//Rob_Moses_Bumbo.wmv

Here is his lineage, from the mantis cave, an incredible website containing a collection of international mantis sifu's lineage charts, all legit.

http://www.geocities.com/mantiscave/rmoses.htm

If you're a mantis practitioner, you'll appreciate this website because it should have your lineage listed, if it doesn't you should contact the admin to begin the verification procedures (copy of certificate, & traditional photo of you by your sifu's side. he then contacts your assoc. headquarters) You will see that Rob Moses is listed in some form of quantifiable evidence that would satisfy the curiosities of some people involved in this discussion, and if you look carefully, then think a bout timelines, you will see that he was amongst the generation of the first group of westerners in north america to receive the full transmission of the Tai-Mantis system.


Now after watching the traditional form, with it as a reference point you should be able to see that he is indeed grounded, powerful in his motions, you should be able to see all the applications in the tai mantis manner of moving. You should be able to see that he moves like an accomplished kung fu sifu.

Now look back at the other clip you saw before, and remember he's in free form, you should be able to recognize the grounded motions of both Sigung Vendrell and Moses, there are moments where they appear as if they are just dancing with their hands, indeed they are, that in itself is an aspect of Chinese Martial Arts, it's closed door, it's evident in today's folklore, but most westerners can't see that the cute dance that chinese folklorists do has applications in joint locking and various self defence methods. Within the free form there are elements of animals yes, and you can clearly see that Sigong Rob Moses' 9 Palms Mantis video is inspired by mantis movements. And if you had an understanding of the internal arts you would see that ALL the movements' applications are evident.

Furthermore In order to be a Mantis Sifu (in any branch of mantis), one must not only learn the entire system but also be able to demonstrate it's application with in an efficient and effortless manner. So to question the credibility of Sifu Rob Moses is also to Question the credibility of all those who came before him that handed down the certification of a mantis sifu... Go read up on the Tai Mantis association, there's lots of info on the web. Before making judgements do your research. By questioning Sifu Moses' integrity, you are in effect questioning the integrity of All those in the lineage of Tai Mantis before him and after him.


It should be our duty to do all our research thoroughly before writing here on this board, because jumping to conclusions as some did after viewing one website and laid comments within pages 1-3 only serves to decrease the intellectual capacity of our discussions as martial artists.


http://www.shaolinlomita.com/links.htm

Now That is a list of links from one of the clubs in the Tai Chi Mantis association (tai mantis), in it you will find a link to Sigong Vendrell and Moses, if you explore some of the other links, you will find a deep, rich tapestry of a community of martial artists that stem from one community to another across north america and the globe. I am but one voice amonst thousands that know and can attest to the teachings of these two men. If you don't want to believe what I say then look at the martial arts community that these men are associated with. You would have to wonder now, why does a Tai Mantis Sifu (sifu since 1986) who has all the backing of a traditional association, move on to some esoteric ideas and associate himself with a teacher that doesn't fit your traditional classification?... Could it be that traditionally from the time of Wong Long, each branch head of the mantis style was requested to keep the system as a living system, meaning growing and adapting, gathering more and more applicable knowledge? could it be that the two teachers have alot in common in their understanding of the application of the arts....??? Could it be that they both wish to teach people to learn how to move with free form application? Meaning for others have the ability to adapt and change as it would be the only way to survive battle?

Remember people, kung fu is a martial art, and traditionally, the measure of one's kung fu skills is what preserved his life during battle, life or death battle. Not a sparring match. A battle where you have to be ready in all eight directions, and familiarity with movement in all possible directions in no pre set order makes sense. Would any of you race into battle, facing 2000 armed men prepared to do your form? it's like reciting the dictionary when you were supposed to make a speech. I love to do my traditional forms, but I do believe that training my reflexes and ability to move on a whim are more condusive to a proper fighting technique, you mantis guys should know, if you look into all of the combat arts, all of them, chinese or not, if they've been succefully used in modern combat, you will see the similarities in logic and martial philosophy. .. you will see what I and others here have tried to explain.... again, look it up for yourself.

now, back on the Traditional Chinese Martial Arts thing, look back at the homepage of Sifu Manuel


http://www.shaolinlomita.com/

While you're at it, go to the homepage and check out the photos, you'll see that Sifu Manuel is very serious and very accomplished kung fu sifu.

on page 2 of the photos, there is this particular picture,
http://www.shaolinlomita.com/images/LRGhochowgroup.jpg

This picture was taken and an annual Banquet for all the patriarchs within the Toronto Chinese community, many Sifus and Sigungs are continually present at these events. It's pretty much a formal social event, with lion dance and performers from traditional kung fu schools and one wushu school (mostly southern stylists, my school has been invited on a few occasions) however there are other traditions that are involved at these banquets.. once every few years, especially when someone is being "made a sifu", in traditional kung fu, to be made a sifu, all you have to know is that your sifu has told you that you have made it, true, yet amongst the community, the word is spread officially within associations and organizations. The easiest and most jovial way is announcements at banquets. [It is one of these banquets that was brought up in question, and the integrity of the people of at these banquets was insulted by BHD, by saying that they were merely flattering him by adressing him as Sigong). There in the picture you see Sifus Manuel, Rob Moses, Sigung Mo Chow, Mike Chow and Sigung Vendrell.
Why would Sigung Vendrell be hanging around these people, at such an event, only because he's in the films? Jean Claude Van Damme and Stephen Seagal have been filming in toronto many times, They haven't been to one of these banquets, neither has jackie chan. Sigung Vendrell was involved with the community during the time that he lived in Toronto while working on filming the TV show, in his spare time he taught classes on and off set, many accomplished sifu's, instructors, stuntmen were among his students, they were exasperrant about his chin-na and methods of YCT training, (My Sifu being one of them). Word around the kung fu community in Toronto spread quick and many CMA enthusiasts came to meet and learn from both Vendrell and Moses.

What I'm trying to get to is that to be called Sigung, by your peers, let alone be accepted by a room with over 100 Chinese Sifus in their 70's-90's who would have not dared to teach westerners at one time, is no joke. Especially to the Traditional Chinese Kung Fu Sifus here in Toronto, even Hong Kong, Taiwan, Malasia and probably to many other Traditionalists out there, To be acknowledged as Sigung amongst those people, at that particular banquet, is not MERE flattery.

It is absolutely no joke and it is rude of you RHD to make a joke of it. You are insulting an entire culture.

Here where I live, in Toronto, Canada, there is a very rich cultural heritage of chinese immigrants. They have been here since they first came to build our railroads, from the east coast to the west, here on the east side many settled in this country's largest town. Our Chinatown is somewhat comparable to the size and history of LA's and SF's settlements. Interaction between between these communities has long been existent, interactions with westerners has been more recent relative to the establishment of these communities and thus the kung fu associations themselves.

These communities know and preserve their own history better than any western establishment of historical record, and historically they have been very secretive about their doings, especially with teaching kung fu to westerners. To be an acknowleged Sigong among members of Chinese Martial Arts communities in 2 Large Metropolitan Cities of North America should be enough to suffice that Yee Chuan Tao is legit.

Yes It is our duty as shaolin practitioners to preserve the truth, and if we don't believe what entire communities of Shaolin Elders accept, then who are we to say so?

So if you can't fathom this culture, if it is foreign to you, then you must just take my word for it's self, the acknowledgement from a room with over 100 elderly shaolin masters (who make up a large body of the Canadain Chinese Martial Arts Assoc.) shouldn't be taken lightly. If you still question the Legitimacy of Sigong Vendrell or his Sifu, you could go on a Trek to Toronto or California and try to speak to some of the old Masters and ask them what they remember of him, maybe they'd be a good source foryou could trust? But seriously, I don't know if any of you have the desire or means to travel to LA let alone canada to bother people that you don't know about some petty squabble as far as they would be concerned, it really shouldn't have to go that far. But any of you are truly curious about concepts that might seem foreign to you, curious to see for yourself, it would be best to take a trip to the Island, if you don't like what you experience at the Welcome Mat then you can still really have a good vacation on the Island. It's a win-win situation.


That is the end of my objective analysis of this matter... administrators, moderators, do what you will but I believe that this thread has the potential go somewhere positive, I think that RHD Mike would be better off if he had his questions or curiosities satisfied rather than be booted off for writing before thinking his words through. RHD Mike, please mind the manner of the tone in your writings, sarcasm, judgementalism, calling people fraudulent, all of this is wrong, in law it's called libel. try to remain civil and open yourself up to new possibilities, this is a large world we live in, even though the internet makes it seem much smaller than it is, there are still many people out there that have been exploring ideas that haven't crossed our paths yet.

I read most of this thread on saturday night, it really upset me, after only 3 hours of sleep had to be off for the regular weekly big outdoor training day, usually a 4-6 hour session depending on winter or not

regardless, I had to collect my thoughts for 2 days before replying, I've done my best to remain calm after reading the most recent posts , so I too apologize if any of my comments seem upsetting to anyone out there.

I'll tell you honestly, I wouldn't have replied to this forum if it hadn't have continued to be hostile as of this morning. I read on late Sunday night and thought that the intelligent responses on pages 5 and 6 would have quelled the argument into what it should be, a discussion. Until this night, I hadn't posted on a message board for over 5 years because i was tired of the nature of the this (disjointed) communication, it is too easy for people to "get the wrong message", too many people causing arguments and swaying the communication into different tangents and loops.

It took me much too long to complete this message, if some parts seem repetitive or disjointed please let me know so I could try to be more clear.

I felt that I had to take an objective view of what was going on here in order for some of you to remember the original question in this thread, and to help you remember that it is in our nature as Shaolin practioners seek to knowledge and be humble in this journey.

It seems that although this is a forum, people's personal testimonies to their own experiences are not considered true unless a trusted member of the board would speak on it's behalf, extinguishing any new source of information, and that's why I didn't want to subjectify too much of my own experiences and my journey in CMA to the scrutiny of hostile people involved in this deconstructive arguement. But now, to satisfy anyone's curiosity I'll let you know more about me, what style I practice, all the expected stuff

I can forsee the troublemakers stating arguments of my bias as I explain my own personal testimony and lineage.

If you haven't already figured it out, I'm a Tai-Mantis practitioner from Toronto, Canada. I'm just a student of this system, My Sifu, Rupert Harvey is a certified Tai-Mantis Instructor, you can check out his lineage on the Mantis Cave website, http://www.geocities.com/mantiscave/taiji.htm

As I mentioned briefly before, my Sifu was one of the CMA practitioners at a
school in Toronto (Sigong Mo Chow's school) where he was introduced to Sigongs Vendrell and Moses, with Sigong Mo Chow's permission my Sifu began learning Tai-Mantis Kung Fu and Yee Chuan Tao from each respective teacher. Shortly thereafter he began working on the TV series (kung fu: legend...) with his Sifus. Between takes all the martial artists/stuntmen on set would gather and practice, after a days shoot some would continue training, taking the opportunity to fulfill the accellerated 8 hours a day, every day, seven days a week that is neccessary to complete most mantis systems in such a short time (someone already posted this earlier, it's true, it normally would take about 15 yrs to complete most mantis systems, but if one literally lives to train for about 7-8 years they can do it.) My Sifu was the only one among the group in Toronto that succeed in completing the system at the accellerated rate in which they pursued their training. And remember that Sigong Vendrell was by their side, I am told that Sigong Vendrell was like a sponge when Sigong Moses would teach a form, he would only have to see it once and he would remember ever step. I don't think Sigong Vendrell is certified as a Tai-Mantis Instructor, but I can imagine that In over 20 years of friendship with Sifu Moses he must have seen every set and touched hands with him many times. And as anyone who practices sticky hands (chi sao) knows, it's a major part of the transmission of the knowledge of the art's application in close and mid-range closing techniques. Now I personally have not met Sigong Vendrell, I only know him in spirit through his teachings that he passed down to my own Sifu, but I did meet my Sigong Rob Moses, and he has said that two of his greatest kung fu teachers have been his Sifu Dr. Kam Yuen, and Mike Vendrell. Mike Vendrell taught my Sifu the principles of Yee Chuan Tao, with these principles in mind, one can employ various exercises for students to quickly learn the physics of human body mechanics, developing a feel of the transferrence of power from the ground up, a feel for inertia, making gravity your tool, developing a feel of your opponents, and yes believe it or not developing a feel for chi, as it has been mentioned before Chi-Gong is rooted within the practice of Yee Chuan Tao. Now I don't want to get into the old argument of internal and external, but I definitely reccomend the benefits of internal study for all those who want to maintian practicing martial arts for the entire duration of their lifetime. Along with the principles of Yee Chuan Tao, a complete system of Chin-Na was taught to my sifu... 108techniques of dislodging the bone (not sure about the total number 108, I'm only proficient in 54 of them thus far), muscle separation, sealing the breath sealing the blood, cavity press, 36 pts. Now remember, My Sifu is a Certified Tai-Mantis Instructor, he doesn't carry a certification in YCT but he has incorporated the full chin-na system with Tai-mantis (and all mantis practitioners would agree that these two systems are complementary of each other) as well as with the principles of Yee Chuan Tao, our particular style of Mantis has taoist influence (tai chi mantis) with emphasis on grounding, maintaining an aligned structure and generating power from center, and the taoist philosophies of Yee Chuan serve as a great part in our learning of the nature of our movements in both our traditional mantis forms and free-form practice.

so it was kind of funny for me to see Sigong Vendrell's credibility as a grappler come into question earlier on in the string.

I've been training under Sifu Harvey for only six years, In this short time I have had the chance to touch hands with many practitioners from other CMA systems, and any one who practices free-form sticky hands knows that you can learn alot from each other and also ascertain the level of your opponent depending on how much they want to show you, as you can put it "school you" (this exercise is not to be confused with pak-sao or chi-sao played with set patterns). Of the different stylists that I had the chance to meet outside of my own school, in the past year I've had memorable experiences playing with 7 star mantis brothers, tai chi practitioners, a White Eyebrow (Pak Mei) stylist, all from which I learned a lesson or two on improving my kung fu. A few years ago our class attended a seminar with 7 star Sifu John Funk, we found that it was a good experience to see the similarities of our styles, to know that a school in the other side of the country, from a different lineage still holds the principles that make the mantis system an effectively applicable system. Our kung fu school has been occasionally visited by a couple of John Funk's Sifu's, when in town, one in particular trained with us over this winter. They expressed that the things that they enjoyed practicing the most were the variety of ballistic drills, free sparring and sticky-hands with students. They loved to touch hands with Sifu and expressed how even some of the students played a very challenging game. And as we all know, touching hands with one's own sifu is the best way to get a direct transmission of the art. (you have to feel the art as it is applied)

I was lucky to have a chance to touch hands with my Sigong Rob Moses a couple summers ago at a 9 Psalm Mantis seminar here in canada, what an experience, it's hard to put into words. It's hard enough to articulate my exeperiences in touching hands with my own teacher let alone the man that taught him! There were four schools at this seminar 2 CMA (my school and another 7 star school) and we learned the principles of 9 Psalm Mantis, the free-form mantis system that Sigong Moses created, it's similar to Yee Chuan Tao, in that anyone at any level of experience and understanding in the martial arts can benefit from it, yet as a mantis practitioner one can really gain a sense of 9 Psalms as Sigong Moses has categorised 9 fundamental aspects of motion found in the mantis system as building blocks for Ideas to begin your free-form movements. I'm afraid my explanation may be too vague, .....
but i can say one of the many benefits that I've experienced from practicing 9 psalm mantis is the ability flow into some techniques that I might have learned in one particlar set-form and immediately flow into a technique from another and so on so forth ..... you can imagine that instead of seeing your opponent in the set place of the form that you are used to, the opponents are suddenly shifting from their orthodox position and appearing wherever you see them to appear and you have to quickly adapt to a technique that is familiar to your situation in time and space.

This is as much as I can say at this moment as I have been here, writing for over 12 hours and I must sleep, I hope that I have cleared some things up with peoples concerns on this forum... if anything I hope that I have pointed some of you in the right direction for seeking out the answers for yourselves.

Peace

Selim

 

[RHD]

For those who've asked for my background: post #37. e-mail me for any more details.

For Thundering Mantis: read post #40 for the reason behind my passion regarding this entire thread. So sorry you're that upset. Thundering is a good choice of names. I really don't care if you think I'm bad or rude...I don't believe in being PC. PC is a comforting shield behind which much B.S. can hide. Try some deep breathing and relaxation techniques if you have trouble sleeping.

Sifu Mike, push hands and drills are good methods. I think this is aninteresting method of instruction, but how much foundation do the students recieve before the push hands and so forth? Also, do they learn things like chin na and do any type of conditioning before they touch hands? Also, any comments on footwork?

In the fights that you engaged in...and thank you for finally discussing them...were they against trained fighters or primarily against those who had not recieved formal instruction? Also, the eimeline of your background puts your fighting experiences in your teens. This is very atypical.

Dave, two masters smiling and touching hands sounds like you've read "the Chronicles of the Tao" by Deng Ming-Dao too many times

Mike

 

[chee]

Thank you Thundering Mantis, for the well-written post. I hope we can meet someday. I would love to meet you and invite you to come to Hawaii and meet some of the students here. We can learn a lot from you too.

 

[RHD]

Okay all you YCT and 9Psalm supporters, allow me to step up on the soapbox one more time...

In my relatively short but illustrious career in martial arts I have met no less than 3 people who've claimed to have personally studied with Chuck Norris, but couldn't recall the name of the system he teaches or knew that it came from Tang Soo Do. I met one fellow locally who claimed to teach Spider style having learnt it from an old Chinese guy who died shortly after...It turned out he only had a green belt in TKD. I met one guy in El Paso, TX who claimed to have learned his kung fu from a group of Shaolin monks who fled china for politcal asylum in Mexico in the 1940's. His kung fu strangely mimiced several popular video instruction series available through Panther video, and when I touched hands with him it was clear he had little idea of how his forms worked. I've met countless veterans who all claimed to be special forces, snipers, or other "real dangerous" types, but turned out to have been far less. Even recently in the news there was a fellow hired by the US Navy to beef up thier security procedures, but turned out to have falsified his own military records and at least for while even fooled the Pentagon.

So, I am of the school of thought that big claims should be proven rather than taken on faith. I also do not believe in titles like master, sifu, or grandmaster as this means next to nothing in terms of revealing one's skill. How many times have I met "masters" of martial arts who clearly couldn't fight thier way out of a paper bag with a pair of safety scissors? Plenty. CMA's are as often represented poorly as they are with skill and knowledge.
I will always call it like I see it in regards to titles, skill, and big claims. I will always stand firm in my convictions because I've been mislead int he past and know others personally that continue to be.
On that line of thought, I appreciate the offers to experience YCT first hand and I hope to be able to make that happen at a future date.

Chinese Martial Arts are full of myths, mysticism, and exaggeration. When I read a background story like Mike Vendrell's, my first and strongest reaction isn't "oh wow, this guy's a grandmaster!". It's more like "yeah right!". I will never accept a martial art's master's own word on how good they are or what they know because its all very subjective and relevant to the personal experience of who thier audience is. I can appreciate the strong outcry of students and friends who are pissed off at me, but let's face it...The YCT story is fantastic. It sounds like a movie script. The references to Hollywood and actors are strangely ironic. Somone tell me what makes a person a Grandmaster? I once had a Cantonese friend tell me that in Hong Kong people will call a taxi driver "sifu". Titles mean what?

Now, regarding the cage match thing...I think that the whole teenage cage match story is extremely fishy. I'm glad that Mr. Vendrell has at least said a few things about them finally. The problem here is that few people have ever seen real CMA's in action, and unfortunately they have with few exceptions been poorly or under represented in the next best thing which is MMA or UFC style competition. I think that anyone making those kinds of claims in today's "reality" based martial arts world had better be willing and able to provide some healthy proof to back them up. I'm surprised that the Bullshido types haven't zeroed in on this sooner and paid a visit to Mr. Vendrell's school. Maybe the Gene LeBell black belt would come in handy then LOL. Also, clearly this is a selling point for Mr. Vendrell's business on his website...so why the hesitance to discuss? If it sells, it should be open to scrutiny. Otherwise it sounds like snake oil. I have a phone book in a cupboard nearby that easily lists half a dozen TKD schools where every head instructor has World Champion or Military Champion or some kind of Championb title to thier credit. I've looked this up in every major US city I've been to and its the same in each one...Lots of champions, no way to verify it.

Then we have the whole philosphy-mystical-chinese master-practicing forms in the wind elemental forces-thingy.
Dave, it blows my mind to hear you talk about the two masters duelling by touching hands together. Maybe in your world this happens, but if it happens, it's way past due in public recognition. This sounds like more mythology/faith/fantasy based CMA that really makes other CMA practitioners look stupid and sound hokey. In fact, this kind of silliness plagues all martial arts. If these kinds of masters exist, let them come forward and prove their skills to the general public. Otherwise, it needs to remain in the category of interesting ideas for a fiction novel.

So there you have it. Rude, disrespectful, shameful, sickening, whatever you like to call me. If you can't see the reasons behind my angst then maybe I'm not the only one interpreting kung fu from behind my own little box.

Mike

 

[Sifu Mike]

Mike (RHD) I can see your point completely, coming from where you’ve been and whom you’ve met. I have been in the arts a long time and I can't tell you how many "World champs" I've met. I did not write those words on my web page to impress anyone it’s a very small Bio of what I have done in my life. If I were to write my whole life story down I am afraid that no one would ever believe me. I have lived a very full and exciting life and have done more then most people have done in ten life times. It was not that you did not believe me that offends, it's the attitude and the words you used that my students were insulted by. For me I am just a teacher I love to teach I have been teaching for most of my life and I have had the opportunity to teach some very fine martial artists. You're right in that a title is just that a title, it’s a person ability that makes a master and one does not refer to one self as a master, they allow others to call them that. I am amazed at the outcry of my students to defend my good name. People wrote in to voice their opinion because they know that I am who I am. One more thing, my mom works at the school and read part of the thread. She even wanted to write in and put in her two cents but I told her that it was not necessary. I hope we can move on from here and I will do my best to relate what I do to all who cares on this forum.

Michael Vendrell

 

[grappling_mandala]

Okay all you YCT and 9Psalm supporters, allow me to step up on the soapbox one more time...

Then we have the whole philosphy-mystical-chinese master-practicing forms in the wind elemental forces-thingy.
Dave, it blows my mind to hear you talk about the two masters duelling by touching hands together. Maybe in your world this happens, but if it happens, it's way past due in public recognition. This sounds like more mythology/faith/fantasy based CMA that really makes other CMA practitioners look stupid and sound hokey. In fact, this kind of silliness plagues all martial arts. If these kinds of masters exist, let them come forward and prove their skills to the general public. Otherwise, it needs to remain in the category of interesting ideas for a fiction novel.

I suppose I’m a bit of an idealist. I read a lot. I’m searching for the truth of this infatuation with conflict and resolution humans have on a global social level. I hate television. I love mythology.

I think it’s way past due as well that we bring these things out on not just a public level but a GLOBAL level! I think the public needs to recognize that when people are honest with each other, there’s not really a need to prove anything to each other. We can just train together and increase each others skill, creative influences, and moments of inspiration and revelation. It’s the moments that ‘make sense’ inside of extremes, that become a part of us. The martial artist strives for “A-HA!” moments inside a mirror of physical extremes.

Mike, please don’t take my idealism as a disconnection from ‘reality’ based martial art. Yes I am interested in art, and life, and creativity, but the reality (aka truth) in martial art is “does it work”. We all know that. I personally think TCMA’s public image is currently stained because of this. A lot of schools have locked the arts inside of ‘forms”.

I spend a great deal of time applying ‘theory’ to ‘practice’ against ALIVE resisting opponents. I have SBG to thank for this training environment. People you can trust, if I want someone to punch me while getting off my back, I can get a big old helping served up. But mainly mat time is in a BJJ environment both gi and no-gi.

For me, if I can’t get a theory or principle to work on the mat, it gets shelved until I understand more about it, or it proves itself to be useless. This way even when we’re “slow rolling” we constantly seek the smoothest most effective routes to where we want to go, instead of struggling for dominance. This is the advantage that submission grappling has over traditional “pin-based” grappling.

Anyway I look at it, I can only improve as long as I train smart (no injuries) and continue to put myself in situations where I am challenged to “put it all together” while training. One thing is this, we have each other to challenge and test as friends on the mat. That way if anything happens ‘in real life’ you already know what it’s like to hit, get hit, to throw, to be thrown, nothing will come as a surprise. All that time spent in the moment are yours to keep. It doesn’t go away.

“This sounds like more mythology/faith/fantasy based CMA that really makes other CMA practitioners look stupid and sound hokey. In fact, this kind of silliness plagues all martial arts. If these kinds of masters exist, let them come forward and prove their skills to the general public. Otherwise, it needs to remain in the category of interesting ideas for a fiction novel.”

When I get on the mat with someone, once physical contact takes place I can tell quickly what their skill level is. When I got to roll with Baret Yoshida in Hawaii it was like he went off my radar completely, and instantaneously. Not only could I not really tell ‘how good he was’, but he simple wasn’t ever there, and he was always coming around a corner playing a wicked game of peek-a-poo where submissions were peek-a-boo’s. It was the most fun I’ve had in the last 2 years rolling!

You can ask BJJ black belts about this, I HAVE! Soon after they touch they can tell what level the other guy is at.

I don’t think that this concept is limited to grappling, but it’s just a natural human sense that develops naturally when you spend time DOING something. All martial artists have it. Including Chinese masters. Ever been around someone which made you feel 'unsafe'. Subconscious body language bro!

The above paragraph your wrote makes it sound like your limiting the teaching of TCMA to the ‘forms’ and ‘technical information’ of 'traditional fighting' rather then allowing for the natural development of the human that occurs when they walk on ANY “path”; martial or otherwise. People change naturally over time, training in martial art directs that change.

It’s the stories I hear about two “masters” that simply stare into each others eyes until one backs down because his center moved that are my most favorite fairy tales. True? I hope so!

So there you have it. Rude, disrespectful, shameful, sickening, whatever you like to call me
Mike

I call it honest!

Dave in Oregon

 

[grappling_mandala]

"This sounds like more mythology/faith/fantasy based CMA that really makes other CMA practitioners look stupid and sound hokey."

PS- Wow, that one hurt! Because I enjoy playing in the wind just as much as i enjoy choking someone. Sadistic? Yes. Real? Yes. But there are so many ways to close off the blood or wind! And the wind feels so good!

Just as much as learning how to apply the mantis concepts of 'hooks' while training...I like playing in the wind. Sound weird? Try it. Practice your forms really slow, then go do them in a strong wind and you'll see. Wear something that will act as drag. Puffy Pants or something. Relax and let the wind tell you things about your form. It's like biofeedback without electronics.

What's fantasy and hokey is the traditional arts that claim to be transmitting martial art, when in reality it's just art. Sure there are some guys who can get some moves off inside a style, but the inability of TRADITIONAL form based martail art to perform in the MMA community is significant.

If someone was to succussfully complete an MMA fight fully inside of one style, say 'mantis', without ever doing any movement outside of the "form", it would revolutionalize all modern perceptions of traditional martial art. I bet there would suddenly be 'mantis fights from back' forms. <wink>

Forms are put there to transcend. I heard from Sifu Rob Moses (he learned all 10 Shaolin forms) that the Shaolin forms were really put there simply to weed out the non-dedicated from the serious student.

Learn forms, understand them, see what they have to say, then say something yourself. Transcend form. (make them yours!)

All in good fun.

Dave in Oregon

 

[nlmantis]

http://www.unitedmartialartists.org/vendrell/

I was wondering if anyone here practices or has even heard of Yee Chuan Tao Kung Fu? Is it the same as Yee Chuan Kung Fu? The above site is the only Kung Fu school in my area, and I was wondering if it's a legit art to take up.

--
Hi there, just to add my $0.02 on this topic, maybe a fresh perspective.

I train daily in Toronto under Sifu Harvey, who has studied intensively under Sigong Vendrell and Sigong Moses and is certified to teach Tai Mantis (lineage as per Thundering Mantis email) and Tai Shan Mantis. Sifu Harvey also studied the Chin Na (sub)system and Kali under Sigong Vendrell. All of the principles from YCT transmitted to Sifu Harvey are passed on in his school.

I started this training coming from Rotterdam, NL after 7 years of intensive study of the Japanese MA Kyokushin and later separated Mas. Oyama's Oyama Karate. These schools focus on competitive training where matches are 2-3 rounds of 2-3 minutes (depends) knock-out/knock-down no protection.

In the first visit to Sifu Harvey's school I was amazed with the level of applicability in the techniques displayed and analyzed. Since then all classes have been of excellent quality and my fighting skills have improved 100% just due to the principle-based and analytic approach to teaching combined with a wide range of drills and forms. Furthermore, exposure to Tai Shan Mantis has been extremely enlightening uplifting the mind beyond self defense into the infinite world of Fu. Also in weaponry specifically working with the rope has proved very effective to improve skills in staff, 3section and Kali. The components that I think stand out in this school's training are the advanced (low) kicking, Chin Na and free-form moving meditation.

A component of legitimacy for this school can be derived from the fact that the art taught is extremely applicable to whatever your focus is; self defense, experiencing Fu, life. The little I have seen of YCT stands up against any martial art I have seen. If you are looking to seriously improve your skill, this is definitely a school to consider.

I was actually wondering if the originator for this thread actually checked out Sigong Vendrell's and Sigong Moses' school and can share some experiences? I would like to know what happened..

Love, Peace, Harmony.

Bob.

 

[ThatWasAKick]

Greetings,

My name is Hjordes Norman. I read this thread out of curiosity because I had heard of this debate, and was under the false impression that there were some in the community who were denigrating the legitimacy of Sifu Mike and his teaching. Being an old-timer to boards, I am pleased to discover that this thread is a simple case of relatively mild flaming by a person with poor manners who has not trained under Sifu Mike and knows less of YCT than I do. Though I’m sure it warms Sifu’s heart to see his students come to his defense, I would gently suggest that none of them take the bashing here too seriously.

I’ve enjoyed the reading because I have no personal, emotional stake in Sifu’s reputation, and can look at the discussion from an outside POV. The upshot is that I’ve gained insight into YCT and have a greater respect for Sifu.

Sifu Mike is a man of heart, a joy to train under, a person of quality as well as skill and experience. It has been my discovery in life that caliber attracts caliber, and he has a fine group of people. Those students of Sifu that I’ve met – Kala, Chee, Nadia, Riley, et al, have impressed me as very bright, talented, and focused people.

I can’t speak for Sifu’s history, nor am I greatly interested in it. (Those of us who are not sheltered in our youth know that it is possible to live lifetimes in a short existence, experiencing the unbelievable, and we are used to not being believed.) The past is water. What is important is this moment. What I care about is how I can apply the principles and skill taught by Sifu to enhance my own MMA training on the mainland. That, and a good cup of Kona coffee.

It has been an honor to meet and train briefly under Sifu Mike Vendrell.

I, too, would like to hear from the originator of this thread.

***Looking forward to the swim back to Hawaii. Meanwhile, blessings to all at the Welcome Mat. A Hui Hoe.***

 

[RHD]

Greetings,

My name is Hjordes Norman. I read this thread out of curiosity because I had heard of this debate, and was under the false impression that there were some in the community who were denigrating the legitimacy of Sifu Mike and his teaching. Being an old-timer to boards, I am pleased to discover that this thread is a simple case of relatively mild flaming by a person with poor manners who has not trained under Sifu Mike and knows less of YCT than I do. Though I’m sure it warms Sifu’s heart to see his students come to his defense, I would gently suggest that none of them take the bashing here too seriously.

I’ve enjoyed the reading because I have no personal, emotional stake in Sifu’s reputation, and can look at the discussion from an outside POV. The upshot is that I’ve gained insight into YCT and have a greater respect for Sifu.

Sifu Mike is a man of heart, a joy to train under, a person of quality as well as skill and experience. It has been my discovery in life that caliber attracts caliber, and he has a fine group of people. Those students of Sifu that I’ve met – Kala, Chee, Nadia, Riley, et al, have impressed me as very bright, talented, and focused people.

I can’t speak for Sifu’s history, nor am I greatly interested in it. (Those of us who are not sheltered in our youth know that it is possible to live lifetimes in a short existence, experiencing the unbelievable, and we are used to not being believed.) The past is water. What is important is this moment. What I care about is how I can apply the principles and skill taught by Sifu to enhance my own MMA training on the mainland. That, and a good cup of Kona coffee.

It has been an honor to meet and train briefly under Sifu Mike Vendrell.

I, too, would like to hear from the originator of this thread.

***Looking forward to the swim back to Hawaii. Meanwhile, blessings to all at the Welcome Mat. A Hui Hoe.***

:deadhorse

 

[grappling_mandala]

:deadhorse

I think it's great that so many people like learning with Sifu Vendrell. Dead horse? It's a thread on YCT. <shrug>

Dave

 

[RHD]

I think it's great that so many people like learning with Sifu Vendrell. Dead horse? It's a thread on YCT. <shrug>

Dave

It's now a very one-sided thread. Wouldn't want to offend anyone :waah:

Mike

 

[tshadowchaser]

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful. tshadowchaser MT MOD
Aka Sheldon

 

[ThatWasAKick]

...I hate television. I love mythology.....

.... We can just train together and increase each others skill, (bold is mine - TWK) creative influences, and moments of inspiration and revelation. It’s the moments that ‘make sense’ inside of extremes, that become a part of us.

...Anyway I look at it, I can only improve as long as I train smart (no injuries) and continue to put myself in situations where I am challenged to “put it all together” while training.

... All that time spent in the moment are yours to keep. It doesn’t go away.

Grappling Mandala - I just wanted to mention how much I enjoyed your post #109. You hit it right on the money.
-Hjordes (TWK)

 

[Sifu Mike]

Aloha

I would like to congratulate and thank my students that performed at the
Chin Woo Taiji Legacy International Martial Arts Championships.
They did well and I am very proud of them and their performances. The students are Chee, Nadia, Dylan, Riley(my nephew) and Kala.

Mahalo
Sifu Mike

 

[tshadowchaser]

Any pictures you can post of the event?

 

[Sifu Mike]

Aloha Shadow Chaser,

Yes, we will post some pictures as soon as Chee gets back tomarrow, she is our computer person here at the Welcome Mat.

Mahalo,

Sifu Mike