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Ninway J
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I haven't been keeping up with the UFC and all the other "real" fighting shows for the past few years, so I'm wondering...were there any CMA practitioners fighting in any of them?
I think I have seen maybe one guy here and there who lists general CMA or Kung Fu in their list of arts, but I haven't seen anyone I would call skilled in CMA fighting in them.
7sm
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MantisMan
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Is it something to do with perception? Do the organisers see potential UFC candidates with a CMA background and think "little guy against giant muscled goliath - the public will never go for it!"
Because let's face it - apart from Bolo Yeung - are there any CMA stylists with an impressive build? Not that that is a necessity for effective combat, but do the organisers think these "little" guys are going to get ripped apart, and therefore prevent them from participating?
P.S. I'm now expecting a flood of replies (with pictures) from muscled-up kung fu men (and women - now THAT would be impressive).
Because let's face it - apart from Bolo Yeung - are there any CMA stylists with an impressive build? Not that that is a necessity for effective combat, but do the organisers think these "little" guys are going to get ripped apart, and therefore prevent them from participating?
P.S. I'm now expecting a flood of replies (with pictures) from muscled-up kung fu men (and women - now THAT would be impressive).
Originally posted by MantisMan
Is it something to do with perception? Do the organisers see potential UFC candidates with a CMA background and think "little guy against giant muscled goliath - the public will never go for it!"
Because let's face it - apart from Bolo Yeung - are there any CMA stylists with an impressive build? Not that that is a necessity for effective combat, but do the organisers think these "little" guys are going to get ripped apart, and therefore prevent them from participating?
P.S. I'm now expecting a flood of replies (with pictures) from muscled-up kung fu men (and women - now THAT would be impressive).
This seems just a tad trollish to me. Even if you were talking about chinese people your steroetyping. I train with several "muscled-up" kung fu people. To say most CMA-ist are small people is to say most Judo practitioners are gay. Its just simply irrational and uneducated.
I consider myself pretty "muscled up" if thats a term I would use. Most of my training partners have at least 20 inch arms. The problem is your equating size or strength to fighting, and as we all know, there is not a direct coorelation between the two.
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markulous
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I didn't take offense to your post or anything but my Sifu and I are both pretty decent sized guys. We don't have huge upper bodys because that limits your mobility ALOT. But I am 6'4" 200 lbs.
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CloudChaser
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i'm curious, have there ever been any small-ish guys to win a UFC competition? do the Gracie brothers count as 'smallish' guys? i believe they've had much success in these kinda slug-fest fights because of their superior groundfighting skills...
i still think the movie, Bloodsport, was cool because of all the flashy fighters but that's hollywood for ya... the UFC is not exactly pretty to watch, heh...
and you know what, it just occurred to me that i've never seen a sparring tournament for kung fu ppl like you'd have for TKD or judo... am i wrong?
i still think the movie, Bloodsport, was cool because of all the flashy fighters but that's hollywood for ya... the UFC is not exactly pretty to watch, heh...
and you know what, it just occurred to me that i've never seen a sparring tournament for kung fu ppl like you'd have for TKD or judo... am i wrong?
Well its hard when 90% of your techniques are knee kicks and eye gouges, to have a sparring tourny. I do San Shou but thats about as close as it gets I guess.
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By the way, I think I would consider the Gracies as "smallish" but I don't think thats what mantis man was refering \to.
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Originally posted by MantisMan
Is it something to do with perception? Do the organisers see potential UFC candidates with a CMA background and think "little guy against giant muscled goliath - the public will never go for it!"
Because let's face it - apart from Bolo Yeung - are there any CMA stylists with an impressive build? Not that that is a necessity for effective combat, but do the organisers think these "little" guys are going to get ripped apart, and therefore prevent them from participating?
P.S. I'm now expecting a flood of replies (with pictures) from muscled-up kung fu men (and women - now THAT would be impressive).
The UFC does have weight classes now. This helps some in separating the large from the huge.
Or those that are fit for their frame and those that are also fit for their frame only have a larger frame.
:asian:
takadadojokeith
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The closest I've seen is a guy named Jhon Igo who fought in a shootboxing (punches, kicks, throws and subs allowed while standing-no ground fighting) a couple of times. I think he was a san-da guy, which is nearly the same as san shou (I think).
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MantisMan
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7Star,
Yes, my comments were a tad "trollish"
(nice word), but I think most people could see that I was talking in the context of the UFC, not in general. I am making an attempt to gather information concerning the selection process by which UFC candidates are chosen. On what grounds is that selection made? My point was one of "perception" - meaning I was enquiring how the selectors for UFC viewed candidates. I am pretty sure that size IS an issue for them. Hmm..I wonder if sexual proclivity might be too? I am a CMA practitioner myself, and I measure in at 6'2, and would consider myself anything but slight of build.
All,
I think it is a complete mystery to many CMAs that we don't see kung fu represented as a fighting art in such competitions. Competitions dominated (according to their rule systems) by muscular fighters who often specialise in the less "stylised", or less "regulated" arts - the more "realistic" arts. So we see arts that have been moved away from reality sparring, that still use kata as a large part of their training programs, and that train without full contact are pretty much absent from competitions like the UFC. We don't often see fighters listing Judo, Karate or Kung Fu amongst their methods.
Again, is this just perception? Do the fighters themselves downplay the training they may have had in these arts because their names no longer strike fear into their opponents?
I am such a spoon today. I stir for England.
Originally posted by MantisMan
7Star,
Yes, my comments were a tad "trollish"
Maybe you should define your posts a bit more because your first statement was in the context of what others may think. Your second paragraph however was from your point of view..."Because let's face it - apart from Bolo Yeung - are there any CMA stylists with an impressive build?". That is why I responded to you in the manner I did. Also, the "selection" process is not as much about body size as is experience and record. If its about body size than the guys fighting without pectoral muscles wouldn't be fighting no?
Actually, I don't see it as a mystery at all. I think alot of it has to do with the time it takes a person to actually be skilled at CMA enough to fight at that level. Also, I see that most of the techniques I train in are not allowed in any "UFC" type event. The mindset we train with is that anything goes, that is not the mindset of any fighting organization. Most all of our kicks are knee, shin, groin, which are usually not allowed in a ring. Arm breaks, eye gouges, throat strikes, these are not allowed either. To train in these techniques in order to fight without them would be a practice in futility. Also the mindset of most extremely skilled CMAist is one of avoidance of violence. What is there left to prove after you have held a six hour horse stance and won gold in every main kung fu tourny in america and china?
JMO,
7sm
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MantisMan
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7sm,
I take the rebuke on stereotyping in the spirit it was intended. I will endevour to frame my responses in a more explicit manner in future. :asian:
And here's another gold star for you. I did a quick search for the UFC fouls and here's a list of what's NOT allowed:
Butting with the head.
Eye gouging of any kind.
Biting.
Hair pulling.
Fish hooking.
Groin attacks of any kind.
Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
Small joint manipulation.
Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
Grabbing the clavicle.
Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
Stomping a grounded opponent.
Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
Sounds very restrictive, no? At least half of my current curriculum is barred! However, that still leaves other CMA specialisms: pressure point strikes, sweep kicks, wing chun blocks and strikes, stances, and so on; not withstanding the simple speed of CMA attacks and moves.
Wouldn't we want to see some of that in action against some of the world's scariest (note I didn't say 'best') fighters? Surely it's not a case of proving yourself, as of promoting your art through coverage?
Actually, come to think of it, why DO we want to see CMA in UFC?
I take the rebuke on stereotyping in the spirit it was intended. I will endevour to frame my responses in a more explicit manner in future. :asian:
And here's another gold star for you. I did a quick search for the UFC fouls and here's a list of what's NOT allowed:
Butting with the head.
Eye gouging of any kind.
Biting.
Hair pulling.
Fish hooking.
Groin attacks of any kind.
Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
Small joint manipulation.
Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
Grabbing the clavicle.
Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
Stomping a grounded opponent.
Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
Sounds very restrictive, no? At least half of my current curriculum is barred! However, that still leaves other CMA specialisms: pressure point strikes, sweep kicks, wing chun blocks and strikes, stances, and so on; not withstanding the simple speed of CMA attacks and moves.
Wouldn't we want to see some of that in action against some of the world's scariest (note I didn't say 'best') fighters? Surely it's not a case of proving yourself, as of promoting your art through coverage?
Actually, come to think of it, why DO we want to see CMA in UFC?
To say, "take away half of your system and now fight" isn't fighting with that system anymore. So basically a true CMAist couldn't compete in one of these events.
I don't know that I would consider them to be the "world's scariest fighters". I guess it depends on your perception. Most CMAist do not worry as much about "promoting their art" as they do about increasing their skill. Traditionally the way you prove your art is to stand on your own skill. For me to go and win proves my skill but says nothing for my friends or fellow mantis practitioners. Thats the CMA mindset.
Because everyone has this inherent "need" to see their art proven as the best. I personally don't see the need to "compete" in a UFC type event.
7sm
Man, everytime we get some good discussion going it just dies.
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CloudChaser
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lol, 7sm... imo, most of the really good martial arts master don't go around flaunting their skills... look at bruce lee and how many challenges he got for being in the spotlight! but then again, he was also a movie star so perhaps, it couldn't be helped...
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Ninway J
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*winces in pain even at the thought*7starmantis said:
Now that's endurance!
The closest I've done to this was "embracing the tree" for 10 minutes.
I should try for six hours next time.
Yeah, my sigung had to do a 6 hour horse stance for one of his last tests, I think he got to get up and go to the bathroom and puke every hour. That blows my mind.Ninway J said:*winces in pain even at the thought*
Now that's endurance!
The closest I've done to this was "embracing the tree" for 10 minutes.
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CloudChaser
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huh, yeah, we were occasionally required to do the 10-minute 'embracing the tree" posture too, and my knees could barely take it... we were to close our eyes, breathe deeply from our abdomen, and endure the pain... and the only words of encouragement were, "it's okkkkk to feel the pain, just don't show that it hurts!" ha ha, ouch...
i felt like such a wuss when my sifu told us about his 2 day master's exam where he had to hold every basic stance known to chinese martial arts for 20 minutes each before he even tested for his forms! wowzers!!!
i felt like such a wuss when my sifu told us about his 2 day master's exam where he had to hold every basic stance known to chinese martial arts for 20 minutes each before he even tested for his forms! wowzers!!!
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Ninway J
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CloudChaser said:
Yeah, the original way I learned from Iron Shirt would've been impossible for me to "embrace the tree" for 10 minutes without trembling. It really is a great way to build those quads. I've recently adapted some taiji priciples to "embracing", and I can go the 10 minutes without trembling, and I still feel the chi move.
7*, your sigung is amazing!
I remember watching a reality show last year or the year before, where it was all about military boot camp. This one male and one female had to stand at attention, and whoever broke their stance would lose. They stood for almost 3 hours non-stop, I think, before the female stepped out of attention. I thought 3 hours was long...but 6 hours, even with breaks every hour, is even more amazing!
