Yee Chuan Tao

[RHD]

Use your imagination. Haven't you ever seen KF movies where people do a butterfly kick or some kind of aerial to multiple attackers running at them?

You can only make it up if you have some sort of a basic concept of what would work. There's always a counter to a counter to a counter as we learned in Chin Na which is also a part of our YCT training. It's in how you react to what's coming. We do study Shaolin's 12 basic forms as well as some other standard Shaolin forms Sifu Rob teaches us. To be a student of Yee Chuan Tao is to be versatile and think out of the box. Here's a question Sifu Rob Moses would ask us: have you ever tried doing Shaolin (or any of your own forms) in a phone booth? Well, you should be able to do them in any space, even in a phone booth.

Sure I've watched movies. Choreography isn't fighting however. So what is the application for that? I think in this case it has much more to do with the winning of plastic trophies rather than true martial application.

Anyway I'm curious as to the Shao Lin references. Which Shao Lin based systems are you referring to? Bak Sil Lum has 10 forms that I know of, but there are many, many styles and systems that claim Shao Lin/Sil Lum heritage. Also, has Sifu Moses ever tried his forms in a phone booth? How about his stick play thing?

Mike

 

[Sifu Mike]

True, Movie Choreography is not fighting, but neither is any of the form you learn in any martial arts. It is only one man interpatation or a dictionary of movements. Someone had to Choreograph all the forms in the Hung Gar and Shaolin system, right?

Sifu Mike

 

[Aegis]

The difference is that if you look at most forms they have a set of useful techniques in them as well as a specific scenario for using them. If you're just sticking techniques in because they look good, and don't consider them to be learning to fight, why do them?

For example, the first form of seitei iaido has the following individual moves linked together:

Sitting down without dropping the sword of losing your sight of any potential threat

Sitting in a way that allows fast reaction

Drawing the sword to cut the eyes of an opponent

Flowing from a horizontal cut to a vertical cut while moving forwards

Awareness of the situation

Cleaning the blood off the sword

Sheathing the sword


All put together this form is supposed to represent an opponent kneeling in front of you trying to draw his sword to cut you. You anticipate the attack and draw your sword to cut across his eyes. Assuming he dodges back out of the reach of your initial cut, you follow up and cut vertically straight through his torso. He slumps to the ground, you look to see if he's dead while also checking for any friends, then you flick the blood off your blade and stand up.

That form has the individual techniques and a "practical" application of all the moves in that sequence. If you have moves that are totally unrealistic (like using aerial kicks to fight off several attackers or throwing your sword up in the air to catch it behind your back) then your form has problems, and teaches you impractical techniques.

 

[7starmantis]

True, Movie Choreography is not fighting, but neither is any of the form you learn in any martial arts. It is only one man interpatation or a dictionary of movements. Someone had to Choreograph all the forms in the Hung Gar and Shaolin system, right?

Sifu Mike

I have to disagree, all of the forms I have learned and continue to learn become fighting when I am able to use them in my fighting. If I'm unable to utilize whats in a form then yes, it is not fighting, but the idea, in my opinion, in learning forms is to be able to use them while fighting. During Chi Sau or real fighting is when you are able to apply what you learn in forms.

I also think that most forms are created through time and testing of many men, not just one man. Sometimes so, I guess, but not always.

7sm

 

[RHD]

I have to disagree, all of the forms I have learned and continue to learn become fighting when I am able to use them in my fighting. If I'm unable to utilize whats in a form then yes, it is not fighting, but the idea, in my opinion, in learning forms is to be able to use them while fighting. During Chi Sau or real fighting is when you are able to apply what you learn in forms.

I also think that most forms are created through time and testing of many men, not just one man. Sometimes so, I guess, but not always.

7sm

My understanding is that forms were first fighting techniques, then these evolved into drills, and from there strung together into forms. It would make sense then that this could work in reverse from forms to drills to fighting...
And it does, if the content of the form is practical.
Mike

 

[chee]

Anyway I'm curious as to the Shao Lin references. Which Shao Lin based systems are you referring to? Bak Sil Lum has 10 forms that I know of, but there are many, many styles and systems that claim Shao Lin/Sil Lum heritage.

Sifu Rob Moses is Northern Tai Mantis but also taught in the Shaolin system you can read the back posts of several people that discuss his lineage to determine which Shaolin style he may be. I personally don't care which style it is, it makes no difference to me. I am one of his student and I do what he teaches me.

Also, has Sifu Moses ever tried his forms in a phone booth? How about his stick play thing?

Why don't you ask him the next time you see or talk to him. He does not waste time on the Internet. He has too much to do then to be in with the computerized world.

I would like to know when you say "fight" what do you consider a fight to be? Is Boxing matches, fights? People call them fights. What about "Ultimate Fighting", some think they are fights, people pay a lot of money to go to them. What about a sparring match, they are not fights? Oh, a street fight perhaps, most street fights are just brawls. What about fights that breaks out in soccer matches? Those are fights too. OK, someone trying to rob you and you get into a fight. Police may call that something else.

How many fights then have you been involved in? How do you prepare for them? Sparring with others, friends, partners? How many fights have you been in that you believe your life may be in danger? Why do you do forms if they are not real fighting? Why does one practice on a Mok Jung or a bag if it's not a real person? They certainly don't hit back. Sparring is controlled practice of defensive or offensive responses so why do you do them. Or maybe you don't.

Why, why, why, grasshopper...

 

[chee]

One more thing, Wushu, the National martial arts of China. Wushu mean Martial Arts in Chinese. Do you believe they only put moves together for looks? Their forms are full of aerials and they are taught by old Masters. Do you think the Masters who created them have total disregard for why the moves are there? Who is to say something in a form does not have the "true test of time". These forms are relatively new in China.

 

[nlmantis]

Did anyone book a flight to Kona yet to check things out? I'm contemplating of going in February, catch a couple of classes at the Welcome Mat first hand.

(goes hand in hand with 5th wedding anniversary upcoming Feb-11, my wife will think it's about romance (HAHAHA!)):supcool:

 

[chee]

Did anyone book a flight to Kona yet to check things out? I'm contemplating of going in February, catch a couple of classes at the Welcome Mat first hand.

(goes hand in hand with 5th wedding anniversary upcoming Feb-11, my wife will think it's about romance (HAHAHA!)):supcool:

Love to have you with us, Bob.

 

[Sifu Mike]

I don't believe in teaching things that have no use or that I have not used myself at one time or another in a real fight situation. There are NO!!! fake moves or just for show moves in YCT. I have done many jump and flying kicks in the matches I've been in and they work. There is though, a right time and place to use them and a wrong time as well but that's the same for any technique you use. Just because you may not do jump kick in your art does not mean that they are not useful.

I truly believe that the reason my students did so well at the Chin Woo compatition was that what they did was a realistic interpetation of a Classacal Chinese Internal Martial Art. YCT is a real combat art. The fact that I work as a Stuntman and fight choreographer does not mean I can't tell the differance between real combat techniques and fake movie moves.


Sifu Mike

 

[RHD]

I don't believe in teaching things that have no use or that I have not used myself at one time or another in a real fight situation. There are NO!!! fake moves or just for show moves in YCT. I have done many jump and flying kicks in the matches I've been in and they work. There is though, a right time and place to use them and a wrong time as well but that's the same for any technique you use. Just because you may not do jump kick in your art does not mean that they are not useful.

I truly believe that the reason my students did so well at the Chin Woo compatition was that what they did was a realistic interpetation of a Classacal Chinese Internal Martial Art. YCT is a real combat art. The fact that I work as a Stuntman and fight choreographer does not mean I can't tell the differance between real combat techniques and fake movie moves.


Sifu Mike

I find this very interesting. Very few Chinese martial arts have jumping/flying kicks. Eagle Claw, Bak Sil Lum, a few others I've seen. Msot do not. Out of these, I have never seen or heard of an internal style that has them. I would be curious to see if any other internal stylists have them in thier systems and what thier thoughts are regarding them. YCT remains a bit of an enigma.

Oh, and Chee...why ask me questions? You will automatically disagree with my answers but take those of your sifu(s) on faith. You have all the answers already...just ask the questions to the right people and maybe look for the answers yourself.
Mike

 

[chee]

I find this very interesting. Very few Chinese martial arts have jumping/flying kicks. Eagle Claw, Bak Sil Lum, a few others I've seen. Msot do not. Out of these, I have never seen or heard of an internal style that has them. I would be curious to see if any other internal stylists have them in thier systems and what thier thoughts are regarding them. YCT remains a bit of an enigma.

Internal systems do not have any flying kicks. Besides how would you practice that slowly anyway. Eagle Claw, Bak Sil Lum is not considered as an Internal art. Sil Lum is just a different pronouncation for Shaolin. It is in the Cantonese dialect. It means White Shaolin. It's just another style of Shaolin.

Oh, and Chee...why ask me questions? You will automatically disagree with my answers but take those of your sifu(s) on faith. You have all the answers already...just ask the questions to the right people and maybe look for the answers yourself.
Mike

Grasshopper, I already have my answers. The questions are to stimulate thoughts of being out of that box so many people are into. Sometimes your questions only seemed to be made only to ask a question without really caring what the answer is. If the questions are posed to seek an understanding or an insight to something then they indeed are worth an honest answer.

Most people ask questions to seek the truth. The truth in this forum as well as in real life are the truth of who ever is doing the answering. One can take it or leave it. My knowledge is from what I gained in my 25+ years of martial arts studies of various styles of Tae Kwon Do, Judo, Jujitsu, various Gung Fu styles (including what my grandfather taught me when I was young), Escrama, Karate, Hapkido. So far I am only certified in two arts. I have never stopped learning from people nor closed my mind to non-traditional methods of teaching. New method does not mean they are untested or invalid. They just mean people took it out of the box. Some people learn best first by doing, some learn best first by watching then some gain knowledge by reading. I know "good" martial artists when I see one. It comes from the heart first, then ability and a continued thirst for knowledge, an open mind and always looking for someone better than them to learn from. I am blessed to have met many of these people and I truly believe that all my Senseis (4) and Sifus (3) are one of the best I can find. I have visited many schools and styles in different countries and cities in the US as that was my hobby when I used to have to travel across the US as a part of my job. I have many opportunities to make comparisons of the people I consider as my Senseis and Sifus that they truly are great. I appreciate them very much.

I am sorry that you have had problems with yours. It apparently had hender your judgement of people and the ablity to trust. There's nothing wrong with asking valid questions. However, questioning just for the seek of asking a question is pointless. I hope someday you will find love, peace and harmony with life. Yee Chuan Tao is built upon that foundation.

 

[RHD]

the reason my students did so well at the Chin Woo compatition was that what they did was a realistic interpetation of a Classacal Chinese Internal Martial Art. YCT is a real combat art. .


Sifu Mike

Okay Chee...(and please, don't call me grasshopper, RHD or Mike will do).

Your sifus says that you were all doing a classical internal martial art...and there are clearly flying kicks being performed here. Read the posts rather than simply reacting to them.

Most of all, I realiz that you and all of the other YCT gang don't like what I have to say and do not appreciate my opinions or questions. That being said, I do not need your pity nor a justification of your mish-mash-of-martial arts background. I will post my opinions and ask whatever questions come to mind because this is a discussion forum. If you don't like what I have to say, don't listen. Oh...There is a point to my question, you just don't get it.

Mike

 

[chee]

Okay Chee...(and please, don't call me grasshopper, RHD or Mike will do).

Your sifus says that you were all doing a classical internal martial art...and there are clearly flying kicks being performed here. Read the posts rather than simply reacting to them.


Mike

Mike, Only a hand full of Chinese Arts are considered as an Internal System. Some are Taijiquan, Yiquan, Baguazhang and Xingyiquan. YCT is not one of these. Even though all Chinese MA relies on Chi (qi) for power, not all are considered as an internal art.

 

[RHD]

Mike, Only a hand full of Chinese Arts are considered as an Internal System. Some are Taijiquan, Yiquan, Baguazhang and Xingyiquan. YCT is not one of these. Even though all Chinese MA relies on Chi (qi) for power, not all are considered as an internal art.

Chee, again I have to say please read the posts. There must be some miscommunication between yourself and your sifu...Sifu Mike clearly stated that YCT was an internal art. A classical one in fact. I know what the three major classical "internal" martial arts are, I was only referrring to a previous post. Please read them. Maybe now you will have some more questions to ask at your school. For instance, why do you say YCT is not an internal art, but your sifu does? Am i misreading the posts or does he not say something to this effect? Either way, I am sure you will have some great answer for this...I get the feeling you are all anxiously awaiting the next post on this thread so I won't dissapoint you. Speaking of dissapointment, where's Grapplingmandala been? I'm sure he's got some input just waiting to be spilled out. :idunno:

Mike

 

[7starmantis]

That is true, Sifu Mike stated YCT is a classical internal martial art system. It does seem there is a bit of miscommunication going around.

This discussion is fine and is bordering on polite and respectful, lets keep it that way so we can continue the dicussion, if it gets out of hand I will close it.

7sm

 

[chee]

Chee, again I have to say please read the posts. There must be some miscommunication between yourself and your sifu...Sifu Mike clearly stated that YCT was an internal art. A classical one in fact. I know what the three major classical "internal" martial arts are, I was only referrring to a previous post. Please read them. Maybe now you will have some more questions to ask at your school. For instance, why do you say YCT is not an internal art, but your sifu does? Am i misreading the posts or does he not say something to this effect? Mike

Apparently, what I posted after my last post that did show, did not get posted or I was interrupted in the process because I don't see it now. I had actually wrote again clarifing my statement after that post. I will try to clarify my statement (again). YCT is an internal classical MA in the practical sense. I have a complete understanding of what YCT art is and what Sigong Mike is all about. My follow-up post explaining what I meant unfortunately did not post somehow. YCT it's not officially recognized as an internal art. By the word "recognize", I mean recognized by those artists whose Internal System's are classified in the offical meaning of the classification Internal System (note that I stressed the word "offical").

The following incident is why I said "offically recognized". 3 years ago when I first competed in Taiji Legacy, I entered in the Internal Weapons Forms Category because very naively, my Sifu and I thought since YCT is an internal art form, I should entered in that category. The weapon I used is the double-edge straight sword, Gim (also known as Taiji Sword). I was the first one up, after my performance the judges circled-up among themselves talking to each other. Now, if you've ever been in a competition, you would know that judges gathering around is not a good thing after any performance. I came to find out that this category of "Internal" system is only for those "recognized" internal systems. All the people competing in this category are all doing their swords Taiji style (in slow execution) and here I was doing a fighting Gim form (my form had Taiji moves but not done slowly). I was told I have been misclassified and I should have competed in the Open category. This is the hard way that I learn about classifications in Chinese MA Tournaments. My sifu was not to blame since he is not in the tournament circuit. He does not believe in competitions. I wanted to do it for myself so I went and he supported that decision.

So now I know why there is so much confusion about what Internal System really is. I did not make it up, some offical group of practitioner did. The miscommunication referred to in the recent posts seemed to be generated by me, by not clarifing what I meant when I made the original statement. I will restate it now again:

YCT it's not officially recognized as an internal art by practitioners whose art is in the offically recognized Internal Arts system. But in a practical sense, YCT is an internal martial art and is definitely classical.

Thank you.artyon:

 

[RHD]

Chee, thanks for the clarification. Your previous posts were a bit confusing.
I have seen the circle of judges before...it's ugly. I once witnessed a poor young man at a tournament who had performed what he called "shaolin fighting birds" form. One of his judges was a well known mantis sifu...John funk, who recognized the form as a mantis form (Bung Bo I believe). There was quite a scene between the student, Mr. Funk, the student's sifu, and the other judges when the kid was told it was a mantis form and not "fighting birds".

Mike

 

[chee]

Yeah, it's always something at tournaments so I guess that's why it turns off a lot of people who had bad experiences. We also had a couple of "mishaps" this year. Dylan was not allowed to use his own staff in the staff form because it was not classififed as a "Kung Fu" staff. We did not know obviously when we went or else we could have bought another one with us. One of his Shaolin competitor graciously lend Dylan his own staff so Dylan was able to compete. Later the judges told us that if we had enterd Dylan in the Open category, he would have been allowed his own weapon.

Reily performed his Jiu Huan Dao (9 Ring) in the Open category because we did not know that he could be entered in the Broadsword category since all the competitors had "regular" broadswords. So after his performance, the judges circled-around (!) and decided to disqualify his entry. Unfortunately, the Broadsword category had already finished so Reily was not able to compete in that category. Luckily, Reily had other entires which he was able to perform very well so it was not a complete loss for him.

These experiences and others like this are common place in any tournament. However, we still had a great experience and lots of fun meeting other practioners in Chinese MA.

Oh, I forgot to post pictures of Nadia doing her Shaolin Six form. I did not mean to exclude her as we are all very proud of those who had competed!

 

[RHD]

Perhaps I will have my own "tournament blues" soon as I will be attending yet another tournament in November.
Mike