Women Self Defence!

[AngryHobbit]

You see, all men deciding what women should have.

Excuse me? I am here too. The last time I checked I was female. And I agree with some of these gentlemen - not because I have no brain of my own, but because I don't let the fact that I am a woman stop me from listening when a man makes good sense.

I too believe the point "why should women learn to defend themselves instead of men learning not to attack" is beautiful and altruistic but is not at all in sync with reality. If we made a gentleman's course on treating ladies mandatory for every boy today, this moment, it would probably still take two or three generations to notice a real change. I'm not waiting that long.

 

[AngryHobbit]

I'm not sure why the whole topic of "womens self defense" is even a topic. Are men and women that different? Isn't the self defense that works for men not applicable to women ?

And seriously? Do you live in a warzone?

I recommend self-defense to both men and women. And women are perfectly capable of training alongside men and achieving the same levels of proficiency. The reason for the emphasis on women's self-defense is because the stats are in and, according to US Bureau of Justice annual reports, while men are more likely to be victims of drug-related, or gang-related homicides, women are more likely to fall victim to domestic abuse and sex-related homicides.

In 2011, 98.9% of people arrested for forcible rape were men, 79.7% of people arrested for violence against their family members, including children were men. Whom do you suppose they were committing those acts againat? Mostly women and children.

FBI has an excellent set of annual reports, breaking down violent crimes by perpetrator, victim, race, age, income bracket, living conditions (as in - suburbs, rural, inner city, etc.) If you look at those, you'll see one need not live in a warzone to be raped or murdered. Yes, there are bad neighborhoods (hello, inner city Detroit - we had a friend who used to work as a third shift paramedic there). But not all crimes take place in dark alleys. Some of them take place in broad daylight, in public places, in well-lit parking lots and garages, and - the scariest of them all - near or inside people's homes.

 

[Tez3]

Excuse me? I am here too. The last time I checked I was female. And I agree with some of these gentlemen - not because I have no brain of my own, but because I don't let the fact that I am a woman stop me from listening when a man makes good sense.

Stick around and you will find out why we used to have a lot of women on this site and now don't.

I speak from my experience both in my professional life before I retired and my martial art life in the UK, about 50 years worth. The FBI figures don't, obviously, cover the rest of the world.

Martial arts and self defence are big business now, it pays for instructors and martial arts business owners to scare people into signing up for so called 'self defence courses'.

Rules for women.... these are usually given as dress modestly, if you wear short skirts etc you are 'asking for it'. Don't go out alone at night, don't drink too much alcohol, don't behave in a provocative manner ie 'behave yourselves, don't bring on an attack'. There is still the thought in many people's minds that when a woman is attacked she brought it on herself ..something she did or wore..., sometimes even the female victim thinks that, notably in domestic abuse situations.

No, self defence for men isn't the same as self defence for women for a number of reasons. Life Assurance: Women VS Men: difference in self-defense approach

Feminist....perhaps like many words it's been skewed in North America but I'm not from there so where I come from it's not a dirty word.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You see, all men deciding what women should have.

Um, no. Not much here about what "women should have" (most of the "should" has been targeted at people in general). One woman making the same arguments as some of the men, and some of us talking about the difference between what we wish ("should be") and what is.

We didn't choose our gender, and that gender doesn't make our thoughts irrelevant. Nobody here is shutting women down - we are having an open discussion that actually includes some women.

 

[Tez3]

Sign, sorry but my time on this planet is limited now so I really am not going to spend it arguing and explaining. Many men have good intentions but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I'm sure you all mean well but this has been hashed out on many threads now and the same points keep coming up so what is the point of my trying to explain to the same people time and time again.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm not sure why the whole topic of "womens self defense" is even a topic. Are men and women that different? Isn't the self defense that works for men not applicable to women ?



And seriously? Do you live in a warzone?

When we talk about self-defense as I define it (the physical defense against an imminent attack), then it's not greatly different. It's likely they'll face a larger/stronger attacker, so mostly the same adjustments to be made that a weaker/smaller man would make. There's some difference in the kinds of attacks they're more likely to face, so perhaps a different focus, but still the same range.

If we widen the discussion to self-protection (others include this in their definition of self-defense), then there's a significant difference. And there is probably a different discussion to be had about the choice of fighting back or not and that sort of thing.

So, if it's meant to be specifically for women, it probably should be different. If they are learning as part of a larger (mixed-gender) group, then it's all mostly the same, with tailoring to the student where we can.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Rules for women.... these are usually given as dress modestly, if you wear short skirts etc you are 'asking for it'. Don't go out alone at night, don't drink too much alcohol, don't behave in a provocative manner ie 'behave yourselves, don't bring on an attack'.

I teach most of those rules - except the modesty thing - in a more reasonable fashion. I teach them to both men and women, because they are good ways to avoid some of the situations that require self-defense. You're convinced men are controlling and bashing women on here, and none of that is happening.

There is still the thought in many people's minds that when a woman is attacked she brought it on herself ..something she did or wore..., sometimes even the female victim thinks that, notably in domestic abuse situations.

I've found men sometimes do that to themselves, too, though it seems more common with the women I've talked to. I've wondered whether that's a function of socialization or the nature of the assault. One important point is that telling people (men or women) how they can avoid a problem isn't the same as saying it's their fault. A woman can reduce her chances of assault by not drinking too much. She shouldn't have to control her drinking to avoid assault, but she can't control someone else's behavior - only her own. I can replace a few words and make that true about young men avoiding getting into fights. I avoid some areas of some cities to manage the danger. I shouldn't have to, but I know the danger there and choose to be safer. That's how we take back some of the control.

 

[JR 137]

You see, all men deciding what women should have.

I’m not here as a man deciding what women should have. I’m here as a father deciding what his children should do. And my often unagreeable wife (one of the many traits for which I fell in love with her for) agrees with me. Had she proposed some compelling points that ran contrary to my opinions, both of us would come to a mutual agreement of what’s best for our daughters.

Simple as that.

 

[AngryHobbit]

Stick around and you will find out why we used to have a lot of women on this site and now don't.

I speak from my experience both in my professional life before I retired and my martial art life in the UK, about 50 years worth. The FBI figures don't, obviously, cover the rest of the world.

Martial arts and self defence are big business now, it pays for instructors and martial arts business owners to scare people into signing up for so called 'self defence courses'.

Rules for women.... these are usually given as dress modestly, if you wear short skirts etc you are 'asking for it'. Don't go out alone at night, don't drink too much alcohol, don't behave in a provocative manner ie 'behave yourselves, don't bring on an attack'. There is still the thought in many people's minds that when a woman is attacked she brought it on herself ..something she did or wore..., sometimes even the female victim thinks that, notably in domestic abuse situations.

No, self defence for men isn't the same as self defence for women for a number of reasons. Life Assurance: Women VS Men: difference in self-defense approach

Feminist....perhaps like many words it's been skewed in North America but I'm not from there so where I come from it's not a dirty word.

I am aware of the rules, thank you. I am not clueless. In addition to being an assault survivor and a survivor of molestation by a male family member, I am also educated in a traditionally male profession, and have worked my entire career in male-dominated workplaces. So, I am very well informed on how things work in these areas. Still, I am smart enough not to reject someone's opinion if it makes sense to me just because the person expressing it is not a woman. That would be sexist too. Am I supposed to throw out everything I've learned about literature, music, art, physics, chemistry, mathematics, and everything else if the information was presented by men? No, that would be stupid.

By the same token, I don't look at who is saying something here - but at WHAT they are saying. If what they say makes sense and is helpful, I listen and learn.

 

[hoshin1600]

Sign, sorry but my time on this planet is limited now so I really am not going to spend it arguing and explaining. Many men have good intentions but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I'm sure you all mean well but this has been hashed out on many threads now and the same points keep coming up so what is the point of my trying to explain to the same people time and time again.

if you want to sign off... AGAIN... and not be a part of the conversation then by all means do so. but im not going to let you off the hook so easy this time. your making accusations that are not substantiated by what has been posted in this particular thread. judging this thread by past experience is a negative attitude and being blinded by bias.

There is still the thought in many people's minds that when a woman is attacked she brought it on herself ..something she did or wore...,

not one person has made that statement here on this thread. your only argument is against your own bias and thoughts.

Martial arts and self defence are big business now, it pays for instructors and martial arts business owners to scare people into signing up for so called 'self defence courses'

again with your bias. no one here, that i know of does that nor have that posted anything that would imply this.

i mean seriously Tez this conversation has not been hostile towards women in the least and it has not provided any false or detrimental advise or faulty strategies. if you have a disagreement with anything in specific that has been stated then bring forward proof and post it as false information or ideas and denounce what was specifically posted ,,,,other wise it becomes very obvious to all that what you are really against is MEN... and you feel that men should not even have a platform to speak on this topic.
this is a martial art forum, for men and women get over it.

 

[AngryHobbit]

I’m not here as a man deciding what women should have. I’m here as a father deciding what his children should do. And my often unagreeable wife (one of the many traits for which I fell in love with her for) agrees with me. Had she proposed some compelling points that ran contrary to my opinions, both of us would come to a mutual agreement of what’s best for our daughters.

Simple as that.

Something I just thought of, JR, on the subject of bullying. I know every country, every town, and every school is different. So, I can only speak from my own experience. In the former Soviet Union, we didn't switch schools - there was no grade school, middle school, and high school. Instead, you spent ten years at the same school, same building, same group of people. I was bullied pretty much through my entire time at school. Here is something - I was mostly bullied by girls. I was the shortest child in my class of 33 people, and I think boys considered it beneath them to bully me. One or the other of them might throw a snowball at me, or tug on my ponytail now and then, but, mostly, boys left me alone.

Girls however... oh. my. god. Girls were vicious. Not only did they bully me non-stop (well, me and a couple other poor souls they chose as targets), but they tried to do so as painfully as possible. If they said something mean - it was REALLY mean. If they hit - they hit multiple times, scratched, and pinched, and made sure it showed. If you didn't emerge with at least a few scrapes or bruises, it didn't count.

Later on, when I was in college in Ukraine, I spoke to other girls I was in class with and asked them about it. Now, this was a technical college, so not a lot of girls - and most of us were the "Hermione Granger" types. Very nerdy. Very studious. And all of them had very similar experiences. They were bullied and most of the bullying was done by other girls.

I am not sure whether the same issue exists in American or European schools. It is very possible what happened to me was the direct result of the VERY skewed and perverse attitude toward genders cultivated in the Soviet Union. But definitely something to keep an eye on for your girls. Anyone can be a bully. It can be a boy. It can be a girl. It can be a classmate or a teacher. Sadly, jerks come in all shapes, sizes, colors, ages, and genders.

 

[hoshin1600]

Might I suggest that asking questions as aedrasteia has done, is a way both to encourage thought, and then answers to important questions, as well as showing aedrasteia's strong dismay concerning women being taken advantage of. I just have trouble agreeing with your interpretation of her motives.

I hope I don't sound too negative to your post. But I do think you are a little off track, even though well intentioned.

i am not questioning her motives. i know she is very knowledgeable on this topic. but i have trouble with the way many posters on this sight show up and criticize (not that she was) things that were posted and point out the flaws in peoples posts but then turn and leave without posting up their own views and suggestions or even solutions. often it is a hit and run tactic "you peoples ideas are wrong and suck...now im leaving " and then wont post their own ideas to be up for debate.
i can be a very harsh critic and i debate ALOT. but i am not afraid to post my thoughts and im willing to debate them. as evidenced by this very reply to you.
my thoughts on -A-'s post is that she has a lot of knowledge but never lets the rest of us in on them. perhaps she is unwilling to defend them or debate them, thinking it is a fruitless battle. i dont know. but i would like to hear more of her views than just pointing out how the rest of us may be incorrect in our thinking. i would prefer specifics.

 

[drop bear]

I'm not sure why the whole topic of "womens self defense" is even a topic. Are men and women that different? Isn't the self defense that works for men not applicable to women ?



And seriously? Do you live in a warzone?

I would has said what works. Works.

 

[drop bear]

By the way girls dont train any different to boys when they jump in the cage. And they dont fight any different.

And If you wanted to make the statement that you can turn a girl into some sort of fighter with a specialist girl fighting system. You would want to be turning out some top fighters.

Otherwise girls and guys are looking for the people who are going to give them the best chance of winning.

 

[Headhunter]

Stick around and you will find out why we used to have a lot of women on this site and now don't.

I speak from my experience both in my professional life before I retired and my martial art life in the UK, about 50 years worth. The FBI figures don't, obviously, cover the rest of the world.

Martial arts and self defence are big business now, it pays for instructors and martial arts business owners to scare people into signing up for so called 'self defence courses'.

Rules for women.... these are usually given as dress modestly, if you wear short skirts etc you are 'asking for it'. Don't go out alone at night, don't drink too much alcohol, don't behave in a provocative manner ie 'behave yourselves, don't bring on an attack'. There is still the thought in many people's minds that when a woman is attacked she brought it on herself ..something she did or wore..., sometimes even the female victim thinks that, notably in domestic abuse situations.

No, self defence for men isn't the same as self defence for women for a number of reasons. Life Assurance: Women VS Men: difference in self-defense approach

Feminist....perhaps like many words it's been skewed in North America but I'm not from there so where I come from it's not a dirty word.

Um did you get out of bed on the wrong side today or something. No one has said any of this stuff on this thread....we get it you hate men but don't go trying to start arguments about things that aren't here

 

[hoshin1600]

@oftheherd1
" could you link to some studies showing great success in resisting rape leading to preventing rape, and the use of the three strategies you mention? It has not been my experience that they are. I'm not saying one of those strategies wouldn't work sometimes, but I don't think it is the norm."


Certain Self-Defense Actions Can Decrease Risk | National Institute of Justice

this is just one link expressing what i was saying. i am at work so its not really something i want to be looking up here.

"And less increase in physical harm from resistance vs compliance? Compliance? Can you give an example of compliance?"
what i actually said was that if we use compliance as a base line, (compliance meaning you just give in with zero resistance) if the victim actually resists there is statistically no increase in injury to the victim. i have to stress the statistic part because it will increase injury sometimes in some instances depending on the profile of the perpetrator but statistically across many occurances there would be no increase.

 

[JR 137]

Something I just thought of, JR, on the subject of bullying. I know every country, every town, and every school is different. So, I can only speak from my own experience. In the former Soviet Union, we didn't switch schools - there was no grade school, middle school, and high school. Instead, you spent ten years at the same school, same building, same group of people. I was bullied pretty much through my entire time at school. Here is something - I was mostly bullied by girls. I was the shortest child in my class of 33 people, and I think boys considered it beneath them to bully me. One or the other of them might throw a snowball at me, or tug on my ponytail now and then, but, mostly, boys left me alone.

Girls however... oh. my. god. Girls were vicious. Not only did they bully me non-stop (well, me and a couple other poor souls they chose as targets), but they tried to do so as painfully as possible. If they said something mean - it was REALLY mean. If they hit - they hit multiple times, scratched, and pinched, and made sure it showed. If you didn't emerge with at least a few scrapes or bruises, it didn't count.

Later on, when I was in college in Ukraine, I spoke to other girls I was in class with and asked them about it. Now, this was a technical college, so not a lot of girls - and most of us were the "Hermione Granger" types. Very nerdy. Very studious. And all of them had very similar experiences. They were bullied and most of the bullying was done by other girls.

I am not sure whether the same issue exists in American or European schools. It is very possible what happened to me was the direct result of the VERY skewed and perverse attitude toward genders cultivated in the Soviet Union. But definitely something to keep an eye on for your girls. Anyone can be a bully. It can be a boy. It can be a girl. It can be a classmate or a teacher. Sadly, jerks come in all shapes, sizes, colors, ages, and genders.

I’m a school teacher. I’ve taught in public schools and I currently teach in a private school. I’ve been a teacher for almost 10 years now.

What I’ve personally seen, and reflecting on my own experience in elementary-high school is that most bullying is same-gender. Girls can and sometimes do bully boys, and vice versa, but no where near as often as same-gender.

I don’t worry too much about my girls being bullied. Sure, it’ll happen at some point, but I highly doubt it’ll go very far. They’re both pretty strong willed, don’t put up with nonsense, and aren’t afraid to tell who needs to be told. Basically, they’re not easy targets. Could this change? Absolutely.

The physical SD aspect is a very small part of the overall picture. A critical one that could save their lives and/or mental and physical health IMO, but only a small part.

 

[AngryHobbit]

I’m a school teacher. I’ve taught in public schools and I currently teach in a private school. I’ve been a teacher for almost 10 years now.

What I’ve personally seen, and reflecting on my own experience in elementary-high school is that most bullying is same-gender. Girls can and sometimes do bully boys, and vice versa, but no where near as often as same-gender.

I don’t worry too much about my girls being bullied. Sure, it’ll happen at some point, but I highly doubt it’ll go very far. They’re both pretty strong willed, don’t put up with nonsense, and aren’t afraid to tell who needs to be told. Basically, they’re not easy targets. Could this change? Absolutely.

The physical SD aspect is a very small part of the overall picture. A critical one that could save their lives and/or mental and physical health IMO, but only a small part.

Ah, you got it covered then - no worries!

 

[CB Jones]

The physical SD aspect is a very small part of the overall picture. A critical one that could save their lives and/or mental and physical health IMO, but only a small part.

I agree

Physical SD like CCW should be the backup or last resort plan if/when prevention fails

People just shouldn’t become over confident in their physical SD or CCW and become lackadaisical on prevention.

An ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure.

 

[AngryHobbit]

I agree

Physical SD like CCW should be the backup or last resort plan if/when prevention fails

People just shouldn’t become over confident in their physical SD or CCW and become lackadaisical on prevention.

An ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure.

Amen. We all know there IS no magic bullet (or unbeatable strike or form or pose). I could never understand people who trained in martial arts and then purposely went looking for trouble to show off.