Women Self Defence!

[oftheherd1]

i am not questioning her motives. i know she is very knowledgeable on this topic. but i have trouble with the way many posters on this sight show up and criticize (not that she was) things that were posted and point out the flaws in peoples posts but then turn and leave without posting up their own views and suggestions or even solutions. often it is a hit and run tactic "you peoples ideas are wrong and suck...now im leaving " and then wont post their own ideas to be up for debate.
i can be a very harsh critic and i debate ALOT. but i am not afraid to post my thoughts and im willing to debate them. as evidenced by this very reply to you.
my thoughts on -A-'s post is that she has a lot of knowledge but never lets the rest of us in on them. perhaps she is unwilling to defend them or debate them, thinking it is a fruitless battle. i dont know. but i would like to hear more of her views than just pointing out how the rest of us may be incorrect in our thinking. i would prefer specifics.

Maybe you should politely ask her direct questions and see what response you get. But you should know that she doesn't spend as much time on MT as many of us do.

 

[Buka]

Ahh, British women reaffirm my love for card tricks and miracles.

 

[oftheherd1]

if you want to sign off... AGAIN... and not be a part of the conversation then by all means do so. but im not going to let you off the hook so easy this time. your making accusations that are not substantiated by what has been posted in this particular thread. judging this thread by past experience is a negative attitude and being blinded by bias.

not one person has made that statement here on this thread. your only argument is against your own bias and thoughts.

again with your bias. no one here, that i know of does that nor have that posted anything that would imply this.

i mean seriously Tez this conversation has not been hostile towards women in the least and it has not provided any false or detrimental advise or faulty strategies. if you have a disagreement with anything in specific that has been stated then bring forward proof and post it as false information or ideas and denounce what was specifically posted ,,,,other wise it becomes very obvious to all that what you are really against is MEN... and you feel that men should not even have a platform to speak on this topic.
this is a martial art forum, for men and women get over it.

Sorry, your first paragraph is a little amusing. You aren't going to let Tez3 off this time? From what I have seen of her since I have been at MT, you needed let her off anytime. She seems perfectly capable of defending herself anytime she chooses to do so. Also, since when are comments in any thread limited to prior comments in the same thread? I don't think that has been done since I have been here. She, as all others at MT, are free to judge however they wish. You, and the rest of us are free to judge anyone who does so. That does not necessarily mean any of us have a negative attitude nor that any of us are biased. Where did you come up with that?

[QUOTING]
Tez3 said: ↑
There is still the thought in many people's minds that when a woman is attacked she brought it on herself ..something she did or wore...,
Click to expand...
[YOUR REPLY]not one person has made that statement here on this thread. your only argument is against your own bias and thoughts.

I think that has been commented on in this thread, but regardless, it pertains to attitudes and beliefs about women's role in their own rapes. And commented on here or not, that has been around since I first got interested in girls, and as far as I know, a long time before. Why isn't it pertinent for her to express dismay about it?

[QUOTING]
Tez3 said
Martial arts and self defence are big business now, it pays for instructors and martial arts business owners to scare people into signing up for so called 'self defence courses'

[YOUR REPLY]again with your bias. no one here, that i know of does that nor have that posted anything that would imply this.

Maybe you mean you haven't seen anything mentioned in this thread about MA schools or police departments teaching self defense?

 

[oftheherd1]

@Tez3

Could you PM me please?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

And seriously? Do you live in a warzone?

We live in a nice neighbor. That's why she doesn't carry her favor Walther PPK. All my family members have received both stun gun and pepper spray for our Christmas gift. I even received a bulletproof vest one year.

 

[CB Jones]

We live in a nice neighbor. That's why she doesn't carry her favor Walther PPK. All my family members have received both stun gun and pepper spray for our Christmas gift. I even received a bulletproof vest one year.

Me personally.....the Walther would be the first thing I carried above all else.

 

[hoshin1600]

@oftheherd1
https://www.hoplofobia.info/wp-cont...t-of-Victim-Resistance-on-Rape-Completion.pdf

"Victim Resistance in Sexual Assault One of the most influential actions a victim can take during a sexual assault is to resist, and resistance has implications for rape completion as well as victim injury beyond the sexual assault itself. Unfortunately, conflicting research evidence across studies results in ambiguity with respect to the impact of victim resistance on victim injury (e.g., see results from Block & Skogan, 1986; Marchbanks, Lui, & Mercy, 1990; Ruback & Ivie, 1988; Tark & Kleck, 2004, 2014; Ullman & Knight, 1993, 1995; Yun & Lee, 2014). The majority of the research focusing on rape completion has found that victim resistance decreases the likelihood of a sexual assault culminating in penetration. Sarah Ullman (1997, 2007) discusses this relationship in detail, suggesting that the more resistance a victim uses, the greater her chances of avoiding a completed rape without incurring more injury. Ullman is not alone in her recommendations in terms of rape avoidance. For example, Clay-Warner (2002) determined a significant reduction in likelihood of completion when victims employed self-protective behaviors. Similarly, Marchbanks, Lui, and Mercy (1990) compared women who used no selfprotection to those who used any of three types of selfprotection (nonforceful, forceful, or both) and determined that victims who used any of these self-protective measures had a substantially decreased likelihood of completed rape. ZouchaJensen and Coyne (1993) found that nonforceful verbal resistance was ineffective at stopping a rape, but that forceful verbal resistance and, even more so, physical resistance served as an effective deterrent to rape completion. Similarly, Kleck and Sayles (1990) determined that resistance with any weapon (particularly a gun or knife) is the most effective in terms of rape avoidance, but that, overwhelmingly, victims who resist are much less likely to suffer a completed rape compared to nonresisters."

 

[hoshin1600]

@oftheherd1

"And less increase in physical harm from resistance vs compliance? Compliance? Can you give an example of compliance?

this is a story of deception and coercion from the perpetrator. compliance from the victim. and in a twist to the plot ,, at the time of the rape SHE was a HE.

 

[hoshin1600]

@oftheherd1

"I think it has more to do with the age preference of the perpetrator. Also, I think young girls are quite often more susceptible to grooming than forcible rape. But engaging in sex with girls below a certain age, is still normally codified as rape, even if the victim may not perceive themselves as victims."

i would argue that the victim always feels like a victim but may feel they are helpless to stop it. for sure there is pedophila but all predators select victims based on their own success. week, non- confident, compliant, less apt to tell others, these are the major factors for a predator more so than any age preference. the crimes of sexual predator are often predicated on a disturbed fantasy. these fantasies have a base component of power and control. this is why week and young are targets. its no different than the natural world. the wolf targets the week the old and the young. you dont often find a wolf taking on a full grown male. wolves target the week and separate them from the pack. these behaviors are not species specific, we humans do the same thing.

 

[hoshin1600]

often when the subject of women's self defense comes up the soap boxes and megaphones come out and and the message is..
"sexual predators are not strangers, not a street thug. the incident doesnt happen in a dark ally where the victim is choked and dragged into a dark corner behind a dumpster."
"that the victims are accused of being weak snowflakes that everyone thinks they deserved what happened because they dressed a certain way or where somewhere alone at night where they should not have been"

so for the sake of having a continuing productive conversation on the topic,, anyone who believes this please raise your hand and speak up now.........

if no one speaks up we can assume that the members of MT are a little more educated on the subject than the average person and we can all drop the insinuations of ignorance and move on.

i would like to know what instructors have in their curriculum on this subject. and i would like to improve mine by having a conversation about the subject.

 

[wab25]

i would like to know what instructors have in their curriculum on this subject. and i would like to improve mine by having a conversation about the subject.

Thats one of the reasons I got interested in this thread...

The most important thing I teach on this subject, in my opinion, is the choice and education behind the choice. Are you going to fight back and defend yourself or are you not going to resist? There are a bunch of people (probably most people here) who will tell you to fight back and defend. There are also a bunch of people out there that would have you not resist, hoping that you won't be hurt as much. The thing is, neither group of people, nor myself as the instructor, has to go through what you will go through, if you are in that situation. Therefore, we should not be making your decision. You need to make that decision, and you need to be ok with that decision, because you are going to live with the consequences, if you get into this situation. While I cannot tell you what decision you should make, I can tell you that the worst time to make that decision, is when you realize you are in the middle of this type of situation.

I encourage them to spend some time thinking about and researching these issues. The goal being to decide how you want to respond if you are ever in such a situation. I would encourage them to read articles and studies similar to those presented here earlier to use in making their choice, study both sides. I want them to be educated and to consider how they want to respond from an educated point of view. Make a plan and know how you want to respond, before ever getting into such a situation. I also encourage them to be open minded about their choices... as they get older, as their situation changes, as they learn more... their decision may change as well. Just like we plan fire escape routes and evacuation routes, we should choose how to respond in this type of situation.

Once you get that situation figured out, you need to figure out when and how much. If you are being raped, and you reach out, grab a pair of scissors and stab the guy, causing him to bleed out and die... thats one thing. If you are at a house party, and someone leads you gently by elbow, and you reach out, grab a pair of scissors and stab the guy, causing him to bleed out and die... that is another thing entirely, even if the touch was not wanted, or even if they were leading you closer to the bedroom door to possibly isolate you. Deciding how to respond at different points in the escalation of events is also very important...

Finally, reserve the right to change your mind. If you made a decision on how to respond... and you get in the situation and it isn't working for you, you can change your mind. Especially, since a lot of these things happen on dates... where you were ok with doing this much, you thought. You can change your mind at any time, and have the right to do so. Maybe holding hands was ok last night, but tonight, not so much. You have the right to change that decision and that line, just as much as you have to change your mind about resisting or not.

In the end, there are choices you need to make. You are the one that will deal with the outcome. Take some time, get educated and make the choices you need to make, before you have to make them. While you can ask for, and will get other peoples opinions on what you should do, realize those people don't get your consequences. You need to make your choice.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Thats one of the reasons I got interested in this thread...

The most important thing I teach on this subject, in my opinion, is the choice and education behind the choice. Are you going to fight back and defend yourself or are you not going to resist? There are a bunch of people (probably most people here) who will tell you to fight back and defend. There are also a bunch of people out there that would have you not resist, hoping that you won't be hurt as much. The thing is, neither group of people, nor myself as the instructor, has to go through what you will go through, if you are in that situation. Therefore, we should not be making your decision. You need to make that decision, and you need to be ok with that decision, because you are going to live with the consequences, if you get into this situation. While I cannot tell you what decision you should make, I can tell you that the worst time to make that decision, is when you realize you are in the middle of this type of situation.

I encourage them to spend some time thinking about and researching these issues. The goal being to decide how you want to respond if you are ever in such a situation. I would encourage them to read articles and studies similar to those presented here earlier to use in making their choice, study both sides. I want them to be educated and to consider how they want to respond from an educated point of view. Make a plan and know how you want to respond, before ever getting into such a situation. I also encourage them to be open minded about their choices... as they get older, as their situation changes, as they learn more... their decision may change as well. Just like we plan fire escape routes and evacuation routes, we should choose how to respond in this type of situation.

Once you get that situation figured out, you need to figure out when and how much. If you are being raped, and you reach out, grab a pair of scissors and stab the guy, causing him to bleed out and die... thats one thing. If you are at a house party, and someone leads you gently by elbow, and you reach out, grab a pair of scissors and stab the guy, causing him to bleed out and die... that is another thing entirely, even if the touch was not wanted, or even if they were leading you closer to the bedroom door to possibly isolate you. Deciding how to respond at different points in the escalation of events is also very important...

Finally, reserve the right to change your mind. If you made a decision on how to respond... and you get in the situation and it isn't working for you, you can change your mind. Especially, since a lot of these things happen on dates... where you were ok with doing this much, you thought. You can change your mind at any time, and have the right to do so. Maybe holding hands was ok last night, but tonight, not so much. You have the right to change that decision and that line, just as much as you have to change your mind about resisting or not.

In the end, there are choices you need to make. You are the one that will deal with the outcome. Take some time, get educated and make the choices you need to make, before you have to make them. While you can ask for, and will get other peoples opinions on what you should do, realize those people don't get your consequences. You need to make your choice.

I don't talk about this often (small student group, and new blood is rare). I probably should broach the subject more often than I do, even given the small group size. It's an important subject I address more when talking about use-of-force in general than the type of language you use here (which is more directly appropriate to sexual assault), and I like your approach.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

i would like to know what instructors have in their curriculum on this subject. and i would like to improve mine by having a conversation about the subject.

This was my reason for coming to this thread in the first place - both finding what others are doing and improving what I do.

 

[AngryHobbit]

@oftheherd1
https://www.hoplofobia.info/wp-cont...t-of-Victim-Resistance-on-Rape-Completion.pdf

"Victim Resistance in Sexual Assault One of the most influential actions a victim can take during a sexual assault is to resist, and resistance has implications for rape completion as well as victim injury beyond the sexual assault itself. Unfortunately, conflicting research evidence across studies results in ambiguity with respect to the impact of victim resistance on victim injury (e.g., see results from Block & Skogan, 1986; Marchbanks, Lui, & Mercy, 1990; Ruback & Ivie, 1988; Tark & Kleck, 2004, 2014; Ullman & Knight, 1993, 1995; Yun & Lee, 2014). The majority of the research focusing on rape completion has found that victim resistance decreases the likelihood of a sexual assault culminating in penetration. Sarah Ullman (1997, 2007) discusses this relationship in detail, suggesting that the more resistance a victim uses, the greater her chances of avoiding a completed rape without incurring more injury. Ullman is not alone in her recommendations in terms of rape avoidance. For example, Clay-Warner (2002) determined a significant reduction in likelihood of completion when victims employed self-protective behaviors. Similarly, Marchbanks, Lui, and Mercy (1990) compared women who used no selfprotection to those who used any of three types of selfprotection (nonforceful, forceful, or both) and determined that victims who used any of these self-protective measures had a substantially decreased likelihood of completed rape. ZouchaJensen and Coyne (1993) found that nonforceful verbal resistance was ineffective at stopping a rape, but that forceful verbal resistance and, even more so, physical resistance served as an effective deterrent to rape completion. Similarly, Kleck and Sayles (1990) determined that resistance with any weapon (particularly a gun or knife) is the most effective in terms of rape avoidance, but that, overwhelmingly, victims who resist are much less likely to suffer a completed rape compared to nonresisters."

Not as effective, but I can personally attest a high heeled shoe with the heel tipped in high-grade steel and Soviet-manufactured hairspray are pretty good weapons for rape avoidance.

 

[AngryHobbit]

I don't talk about this often (small student group, and new blood is rare). I probably should broach the subject more often than I do, even given the small group size. It's an important subject I address more when talking about use-of-force in general than the type of language you use here (which is more directly appropriate to sexual assault), and I like your approach.

I really wish we could do another seminar like the one we did with that fantastic group of ladies who chose us as the first stop for their girls' day out.

 

[oftheherd1]

Thats one of the reasons I got interested in this thread...

The most important thing I teach on this subject, in my opinion, is the choice and education behind the choice. Are you going to fight back and defend yourself or are you not going to resist? There are a bunch of people (probably most people here) who will tell you to fight back and defend. There are also a bunch of people out there that would have you not resist, hoping that you won't be hurt as much. The thing is, neither group of people, nor myself as the instructor, has to go through what you will go through, if you are in that situation. Therefore, we should not be making your decision. You need to make that decision, and you need to be ok with that decision, because you are going to live with the consequences, if you get into this situation. While I cannot tell you what decision you should make, I can tell you that the worst time to make that decision, is when you realize you are in the middle of this type of situation.

I encourage them to spend some time thinking about and researching these issues. The goal being to decide how you want to respond if you are ever in such a situation. I would encourage them to read articles and studies similar to those presented here earlier to use in making their choice, study both sides. I want them to be educated and to consider how they want to respond from an educated point of view. Make a plan and know how you want to respond, before ever getting into such a situation. I also encourage them to be open minded about their choices... as they get older, as their situation changes, as they learn more... their decision may change as well. Just like we plan fire escape routes and evacuation routes, we should choose how to respond in this type of situation.

Once you get that situation figured out, you need to figure out when and how much. If you are being raped, and you reach out, grab a pair of scissors and stab the guy, causing him to bleed out and die... thats one thing. If you are at a house party, and someone leads you gently by elbow, and you reach out, grab a pair of scissors and stab the guy, causing him to bleed out and die... that is another thing entirely, even if the touch was not wanted, or even if they were leading you closer to the bedroom door to possibly isolate you. Deciding how to respond at different points in the escalation of events is also very important...

Finally, reserve the right to change your mind. If you made a decision on how to respond... and you get in the situation and it isn't working for you, you can change your mind. Especially, since a lot of these things happen on dates... where you were ok with doing this much, you thought. You can change your mind at any time, and have the right to do so. Maybe holding hands was ok last night, but tonight, not so much. You have the right to change that decision and that line, just as much as you have to change your mind about resisting or not.

In the end, there are choices you need to make. You are the one that will deal with the outcome. Take some time, get educated and make the choices you need to make, before you have to make them. While you can ask for, and will get other peoples opinions on what you should do, realize those people don't get your consequences. You need to make your choice.

All good stuff.

About 35 years ago, the military post where I was stationed was identified by the US Army as having an inordinate amount of rapes or attempted rapes. It was already a hot topic in the Army, so as you may imagine, the post commander felt 'obligated' to take to immediate affirmative action. Actually, he did good. He set up a training group consisting of a lawyer, a physical security specialist, a social worker specializing in sexual assault, a military 'detective' and I think a couple of other specialties. I got selected to be on it.

Now I wasn't as smart as you, so the first time a lady (we gave the class to groups consisting of both men and women BTW) asked me if a man had her on her knees with a gun to her head, ordering her to perform a sexual act, what she should do? I wasn't well prepared. I gave it some long and serious thought for at least a couple of seconds. The only thing I could think of was to tell her if that happened she had a choice to make. That I couldn't really tell her what to do because it would depend on too many circumstances. The more I thought about it later, I figured that was really the only good advice I could have given.

So, I applaud you for your good sense and bravery to do that. No matter what one is teaching, it is my experience that people expect a teacher to have all the learning and experience to answer any question. Disappointment will ensue if they think you should and you don't, and the more so when the teaching involves sexual matters. That can be subtly or not so subtly communicated, which tends to put us on the defensive, and make us think we have to come up with some answer, good or not. Dangerous. If there is no easy answer, better they know that, and think of scenarios before hand, and possible solutions before hand. And we always pointed out that the class was for both men and women as both victims and aggressors.

More importantly, how they will be able to live with the consequences of their solution. I don't think that is done often enough, so I am encouraged to see you do that, even if you don't have the training to give them solutions, at least make them think. It sounds like you are doing that. Good on you.

 

[oftheherd1]

Not as effective, but I can personally attest a high heeled shoe with the heel tipped in high-grade steel and Soviet-manufactured hairspray are pretty good weapons for rape avoidance.

Letting my imagination run free, I had to laugh at the probable results of such resistance. Thanks for the laugh.

 

[AngryHobbit]

Letting my imagination run free, I had to laugh at the probable results of such resistance. Thanks for the laugh.

Any time.

Seriously, though, that was one of those cases where I can only sort of assume what happened but I don't know what happened. Typical - I was coming home from a music lesson, down a not even a particularly dark street. I was 14 at the time. There was no way around that alley - no other route I could have taken. This drunk boor grabbed me from behind - big, sweaty, smelly gorilla. I think I screamed - I am not sure. But, typically, nobody stirred, even though it was in spring and many people had windows open.

I must have done... something, because he let go and was clutching at his face, and his foot was bleeding through his shoe. What I THINK I did was stomped on his foot with my shoe, somehow grabbed my can of hairspray from my shoulder bag, and sprayed him with it. I don't know. Good old adrenaline.

The reason I had steel-tipped heels was - I walked a lot (Soviet Union, no car, public transportation in the toilet), and my dad got tired of having to pay for my shoes having to be repaired all the time. So, he gathered all my shoes, took them to the airport where he worked, and had his mechanics put metal tips on all the heels. So, that worked. As I've often read about such cases, the whole thing took seconds, and the big idiot started screaming like a constipated elephant, and I ran home. I could run in heels pretty well - had to catch the aforementioned public transportation many times. I do hope I broke his toes and maybe that good old Soviet hairspray left him blind. Yes, very unladylike and uncharitable of me - I know.

 

[JR 137]

Letting my imagination run free, I had to laugh at the probable results of such resistance. Thanks for the laugh.

Ever see the movie Single White Female?

 

[oftheherd1]

Any time.

Seriously, though, that was one of those cases where I can only sort of assume what happened but I don't know what happened. Typical - I was coming home from a music lesson, down a not even a particularly dark street. I was 14 at the time. There was no way around that alley - no other route I could have taken. This drunk boor grabbed me from behind - big, sweaty, smelly gorilla. I think I screamed - I am not sure. But, typically, nobody stirred, even though it was in spring and many people had windows open.

I must have done... something, because he let go and was clutching at his face, and his foot was bleeding through his shoe. What I THINK I did was stomped on his foot with my shoe, somehow grabbed my can of hairspray from my shoulder bag, and sprayed him with it. I don't know. Good old adrenaline.

The reason I had steel-tipped heels was - I walked a lot (Soviet Union, no car, public transportation in the toilet), and my dad got tired of having to pay for my shoes having to be repaired all the time. So, he gathered all my shoes, took them to the airport where he worked, and had his mechanics put metal tips on all the heels. So, that worked. As I've often read about such cases, the whole thing took seconds, and the big idiot started screaming like a constipated elephant, and I ran home. I could run in heels pretty well - had to catch the aforementioned public transportation many times. I do hope I broke his toes and maybe that good old Soviet hairspray left him blind. Yes, very unladylike and uncharitable of me - I know.

"Constipated elephant" is a new one. In the Army we used to talk from time to time about someone moving or yelling like a constipated ape, but an elephant. Wish I could have heard that.

From my experience, your experience of not remembering explicit details is not uncommon. People either seem to remember great detail, or some variation of snatches or nothing. Often the details come back later.

Ever see the movie Single White Female?

No, I haven't. Something similar must have happened?