Will Brazilian Jiujitsu eventually replace Japanese Jujitsu?

[Acronym]

Or has it already happened?

I've noticed a lack of traditional JJ schools over the last 10 years. Most of the ones around these days seem to be a combination of Karate, Judo, Aikido and even Bjj instead of a traditional samurai fighting style. I've also heard that in Japan, if you mention that you're looking for "Jiujitsu", the Japanese will point you to a Bjj gym. Bjj taking over the moniker of "Jiujitsu" in Japan itself..... I find that to be the irony of ironies. Here's an article about a foreigner moving to Japan, seeking to study either Bjj or JJJ, and went with Bjj because he simply couldn't find a JJJ dojo;

The Evolution of grappling in Japan: Why did I choose Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu in Japan? — Social Gelo with Angelo

Anyway, how healthy are true traditional Japanese Jujitsu systems? Is the term "Jiujitsu" destined to be taken over by Bjj?

Japanese jujujtsu is and has always been a mixture of Karate, Judo, Aikido and BJJ techniques, although the tendency is that they can't do either one properly.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Japanese jujujtsu is and has always been a mixture of Karate, Judo, Aikido and BJJ techniques, although the tendency is that they can't do either one properly.

I think you have lineage backwards on several of those.

 

[Acronym]

I think you have lineage backwards on several of those.

It was not a statement of lineage. If you kick and punch, you will inevitably overlap with Karate. And Japanese Ju Ju jutsu schools have always kicked and punched, but they are more Krav Maga esque..

 

[Tony Dismukes]

It was not a statement of lineage. If you kick and punch, you will inevitably overlap with Karate. And Japanese Ju Ju jutsu schools have always kicked and punched, but they are more Krav Maga esque..

Yeah, you might want to read back through the discussion a bit. Your understanding of actual JJJ is misinformed.

 

[Acronym]

Yeah, you might want to read back through the discussion a bit. Your understanding of actual JJJ is misinformed.

Mere assertions won't further this discussion. JJJ has always had striking, contrary to what the OP seems to think.

"This included the development of various striking techniques in jujutsu which expanded upon the limited striking previously found in jujutsu which targeted vital areas above the shoulders such as the eyes, throat, and back of the neck. However towards the 18th century the number of striking techniques was severely reduced as they were considered less effective and exert too much energy; instead striking in jujutsu primarily became used as a way to distract the opponent or to unbalance him in the lead up to a joint lock, strangle or throw."

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Mere assertions won't further this discussion. JJJ has always had striking, contrary to what the OP seems to think.

"This included the development of various striking techniques in jujutsu which expanded upon the limited striking previously found in jujutsu which targeted vital areas above the shoulders such as the eyes, throat, and back of the neck. However towards the 18th century the number of striking techniques was severely reduced as they were considered less effective and exert too much energy; instead striking in jujutsu primarily became used as a way to distract the opponent or to unbalance him in the lead up to a joint lock, strangle or throw."

I'm quite aware that traditional Japanese Jujutsu includes strikes. So is the OP, Hanzou, as he made clear in his original post. My response was to your post stating the following:

Japanese jujujtsu is and has always been a mixture of Karate, Judo, Aikido and BJJ techniques, although the tendency is that they can't do either one properly.

Firstly, Jujutsu predates the introduction of Karate to Japan, so it can't have always been a mixture of Karate with other arts. Your assertion that

If you kick and punch, you will inevitably overlap with Karate.

as justification for your claim is rather silly. By that logic, Muay Thai, Wing Chun, Silat, Savate, and countless other unrelated arts are all based on Karate.

As far as Judo, Aikido, and BJJ go, they were derived from Japanese Jujutsu, not the other way around. (Indeed, as has been stated previously, Judo and Aikido are arguably modern forms of Japanese Jujutsu which don't happen to currently use the name, while BJJ is a non-Japanese art originally derived from Judo.) Also, as has been previously stated, traditional JJJ is a diverse family of arts. Most of them did not include the newaza which is central to BJJ and an important aspect of Judo. Many of them also include techniques which are not found in BJJ, Judo, or Aikido.

 

[Acronym]

I'm quite aware that traditional Japanese Jujutsu includes strikes. So is the OP, Hanzou, as he made clear in his original post. My response was to your post stating the following:

Firstly, Jujutsu predates the introduction of Karate to Japan, so it can't have always been a mixture of Karate with other arts. Your assertion that

as justification for your claim is rather silly. By that logic, Muay Thai, Wing Chun, Silat, Savate, and countless other unrelated arts are all based on Karate.

As far as Judo, Aikido, and BJJ go, they were derived from Japanese Jujutsu, not the other way around. (Indeed, as has been stated previously, Judo and Aikido are arguably modern forms of Japanese Jujutsu which don't happen to currently use the name, while BJJ is a non-Japanese art originally derived from Judo.) Also, as has been previously stated, traditional JJJ is a diverse family of arts. Most of them did not include the newaza which is central to BJJ and an important aspect of Judo. Many of them also include techniques which are not found in BJJ, Judo, or Aikido.

I didn't use the word "based".

 

[Acronym]

I will also add that the OP was the one using the term Karate originally, which is perfectly fine with me.

I have been to japanese Ju ju jutsu clubs, and they are no more Karate than TaeKwondo clubs are judo in self defense training... Things overlap.

 

[dunc]

With respect I suspect that you have been to schools that combine judo, aikido, karate etc and call themselves Japanese jujutsu

 

[Acronym]

With respect I suspect that you have been to schools that combine judo, aikido, karate etc and call themselves Japanese jujutsu

The threadmaker?

 

[Hanzou]

I will also add that the OP was the one using the term Karate originally, which is perfectly fine with me.

I have been to japanese Ju ju jutsu clubs, and they are no more Karate than TaeKwondo clubs are judo in self defense training... Things overlap.

I was talking about the "American" jujitsu styles, not the classical Japanese Jujitsu styles. Danzen Ryu or Small Circle would be an example of an American style of Jujitsu, while Tenjin Shinyo Ryu or Kito Ryu would be examples of the classical JJ systems. Brazilian Jujitsu would be an example of an American jujitsu style, since it combines Judo, Wrestling, and other grappling systems.

 

[Acronym]

I was talking about the "American" jujitsu styles, not the classical Japanese Jujitsu styles. Danzen Ryu or Small Circle would be an example of an American style of Jujitsu, while Tenjin Shinyo Ryu or Kito Ryu would be examples of the classical JJ systems. Brazilian Jujitsu would be an example of an American jujitsu style, since it combines Judo, Wrestling, and other grappling systems.

I don't see how BJJ is supposed to replace it when they don't allow strikes in their competitions.

 

[Hanzou]

Those aren't multiple circumstances, it's a variety of applications within the same context. And honestly, still quite limited. As well as being a bit lacking if that's a particular physical skill worked on before it's adapted to other areas, and before, as you say below, their "standard BJJ toolkit"....

Someone is throwing a punch at you, you duck under the punch and take them down. You use positional control to remain on top and submit them.

Someone is on top of you throwing punches. You put them in your Guard, deflect the attack, sweep, and use positional control to remain on top and submit them.

Someone attempts to tackle you. You put their head in the guillotine while their momentum makes you fall backwards. You put them in your Guard, utilizing positional dominance, and finish the choke.

Conversely if you can't maintain the choke, you sweep to top position and again use positional control to stay on top and submit from there.

Multiple circumstances, same basic principle.

No, it's actually not.

So you're saying the ability to stop the mobility of an attacker (and actually works extremely well against larger, stronger attackers) isn't viable for self defense?

Sigh.... and, one (hopefully) last time.... what on earth makes you think that's even close to unique to BJJ? I will say, though, that it seems not to bleed any further than the limited physical expressions...

I'm sure there's plenty of arts that contain those things. The question is can those techniques be performed under duress or against a resisting opponent? Bjj practitioners have shown that they can employ their techniques in a bad situation. I've seen practitioners of other systems not being able to employ their art when someone is resisting or attacking them.

Yep. Except that's not what Hanzou is describing... see my list of examples for more what you're discussing...

Actually that's exactly what I was describing.

 

[Hanzou]

I don't see how BJJ is supposed to replace it when they don't allow strikes in their competitions.

I don't see how allowing strikes in competition means much to anything. In Gracie JJ striking is almost always implied in practice. For example, I was trained to force a RNC from back mount by punching/elbowing my attacker on either side of his head.

As I said, what gives Bjj influence is its perceived effectiveness. People want to train in a style that works, not fairy dust BS where you spend decades training and the only thing you've learned is a medieval Japanese dance complete with a dress (Hakama).

 

[Acronym]

I don't see how allowing strikes in competition means much to anything. In Gracie JJ striking is almost always implied in practice. For example, I was trained to force a RNC from back mount by punching/elbowing my attacker on either side of his head.

As I said, what gives Bjj influence is its perceived effectiveness. People want to train in a style that works, not fairy dust BS where you spend decades training and the only thing you've learned is a medieval Japanese dance complete with a dress (Hakama).

You clearly know litte about it.

Sport Ju Jutsu has sparring and submission

 

[Hanzou]

You clearly know litte about it.

Sport Ju Jutsu has sparring and submission

Sport Ju Jutsu isn't the type of Jujitsu I'm talking about. In fact, I rather like the general direction Sport Jujutsu is heading in.

 

[Acronym]

I'm sure there's plenty of arts that contain those things. The question is can those techniques be performed under duress or against a resisting opponent? Bjj practitioners have shown that they can employ their techniques in a bad situation. I've seen practitioners of other systems not being able to employ their art when someone is resisting or attacking them.

Kron Gracie was a SW world champion who lost to a middle of the road UFC fighter.

 

[drop bear]

Sport Ju Jutsu isn't the type of Jujitsu I'm talking about. In fact, I rather like the general direction Sport Jujutsu is heading in.

See. Told you it exists.

 

[Hanzou]

Kron Gracie was a SW world champion who lost to a middle of the road UFC fighter.

Yes in decision. He's still 5-1, and he's 5-1 because he is quite capable of utilizing BJJ against a highly trained resisting opponent. Heck, no one wants to fight Ryan Hall because they're afraid of his leg locks.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It was not a statement of lineage. If you kick and punch, you will inevitably overlap with Karate. And Japanese Ju Ju jutsu schools have always kicked and punched, but they are more Krav Maga esque..

You said JJJ had bits of Judi and BJJ. That’s backwards. Both are descended from JJJ.