Will Brazilian Jiujitsu eventually replace Japanese Jujitsu?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Hanzou, Oct 13, 2020.

  1. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Found this article talking about the BJJ self defense video that was posted earlier:

    The BJJ Self Defense Experiment

    I especially liked this part:

    The Heel Hook for Self Defense
    The Heel Hook, this one single submission, accounted for just under half of ALL submissions applied during the experiment…

    [​IMG]

    Why did this one submission show up again and again and again?

    In part it was because all three experts are really, really skilled at the Heel Hook (Garry Tonon, in particular, is feared for his relentless lower body attacks in competition).

    But these guys are good at all aspects of jiu-jitsu, so that fact doesn’t completely explain why this one particular leglock was so powerful…

    It seems like once the gi comes off that submissions tend to gravitate towards the legs and the neck. Take a look at modern no-gi competition, old-school catch wrestling, and Brazilian Luta Livre back in the day: they all are no gi grappling arts and all had great chokes and great leglocks!

    Another aspect of the Heel Hook that makes it so powerful for self defense is that it doesn’t require much strength. In this submission you’re attacking the relatively small ligaments in his knee and ankle, and he can’t really use strength to muscle out of the submission.

    If you have to apply this submission in anger you use the relatively big muscles of your torso against the much smaller ligaments, which is usually accompanied by a loud popping sound and your unfortunate opponent dry heaving on the floor.

    (That makes the Heel Hook one of the biggest equalisers you can use if you’re fighting someone much bigger than you.)

    Also it keeps you safer from strikes. An opponent who knows that you’re hunting for a Heel Hook is usually going to be pre-occupied with defending this submission. Unless he’s an idiot he knows that he’s close to tapping out; he’ll be trying to escape and won’t be concentrating on breaking your nose.

    In addition to him being distracted your legs are also in a great position to disrupt his base. If he’s on his butt and you’re entangling his legs correctly then it’s hard for him to stand up.

    I definitely agree that if you're fighting someone a lot bigger and stronger than you, and you're in a position to use it, those types of locks can be a very viable option.
     
  2. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    This'll be a bit.

    Steve, you have exactly no leg to stand on to suggest I "read for comprehension", nor any moral authority in anything here at all. This is neither bluff (I'm backing everything up, and not promising things I'm not showing), nor bluster. It's frustration at both the painfully ill-informed posters and their unwillingness to look past their own heads, and an over-flow of frustration at your frankly trolling, practically libellous behaviour. I'm sick of it, and have little interest in hiding that frustration... gentler comments have not gotten any response other than pig-headed stupidity, honestly.

    As far as the "idiot" comment, you know, I acknowledged at the time that that was right on the line... and would possibly pull it back... except it's completely supported as an accurate observation of drop bear's behaviour... which continued here:

    Are you kidding? Do you even know what a value is?!?! It's not a delusional belief, just saying you are something cause you say you are... that's just... stupidity. A value is something that has a relative/scaled worth to you... you, for example, value what you get out of BJJ... that value doesn't make you a Gracie... or Brazilian.. or a Black Belt... or anything else. It just means that aspects and the approach of BJJ appeals to you and has worth to you.

    Get it?

    What on earth are you talking about?!?! What martial arts expertise did I devalue (for the record, that's exactly what Steve has done with my own background and experience for years)? The only thing I have had issues with is when people make statements about arts they clearly have no understanding of... that's not "devaluing (the idea of) martial arts expertise", it's recognising that a complete lack of knowledge has little to no value in a discussion of a topic.

    What?!??!!?!? You're not making any sense. You say that a fantasy belief equals a value (which is completely wrong), therefore you, with no experience, knowledge, understanding, insight, or anything relevant at all, puts you on "equal standing" with myself in regards to Classical Japanese martial arts... I say that we are not on equal standing... as I know what I'm talking about, and you can't put a sentence together... and you say it's the equivalent of healing crystals?!?!

    Are you just trying to get me to call you an idiot again?

    You have no clue what "values" mean, do you?

    Look, I'm going to dumb it down for you. That seems like it's apparently necessary.

    You have values. They are things that you find worth in. You value time with your family. You value the reward of doing a good job. You value the immediate gratification of eating a whole cake at once. You value attributes in your partner and friends. None of these are "made up values". They can't be. They're just values.

    When it comes to martial arts, everyone will have different sets of values. Valuing competition is one. Valuing skills is one, but it's not that simple... typically, you would value skills in particular contexts, or even particular skills. You might value rank. You might value fitness. You might value history. Depth of study. Reputation. Marketing. Personalities. You might value grappling, or you might value kicking skills, or weapon skills. Or combinations. Or none of them in particular.

    What your values are will draw you towards specific martial arts, or types of martial arts. None of that makes any of this close to just delusionally deciding to think you're something you're not... it's purely about what aspects of a martial art you will be drawn to.

    Of course, this doesn't just apply to people. Martial arts themselves have their own set of values. They value skill development in certain areas. They value a particular tactical approach. They value a particular training methodology. They value a particular range, or weapon set (or group of weapon sets). These all add up to inform and structure the art itself. This is the same, whether it's BJJ, MMA, Karate, Judo, Wing Chun, Taiji, Hung Gar, Kali, Silat, boxing, wrestling, or Classical Japanese arts from the Sengoku and Tokugawa periods. Of course, having different values from art to art means that they have different structures, approaches, training methodologies, metrics of measurement, and so on... and, depending on your personal values, you will either appreciate them, or you'll appreciate something else...

    Do you get this now?

    Then you'd lose. Mainly as you have failed to understand, or set, the context to be applied... and if you're leaving that to me, you're gonna lose.

    Then you don't understand context.

    No, it's the difference between understanding the effect of context, and thinking a particular skill in a vacuum performs equally in all scenarios, as well as thinking that such skills will be able to be applied in all scenarios.

    In other words, your friend will likely not run faster than me if I break both his legs first. Or he gets hit by a car and damages his spine. Or if he can't run for other reasons. But that's not the main thing...

    Actually, it's not.

    We are hardwired for a couple of basic responses... most commonly referred to as "flight or fight"... although there is a third one, which is "freeze". What people seem to think, though, is that it's a choice. It's not. At least, it's not without some very serious and effective training in each area. After all, "fight" is just as hardwired as "flight"... are you suggesting that training in that isn't advantageous?

    There's an old joke about two guys out camping... one day, they see a huge grizzly coming towards them. The bear spots them, stops, and studies them, then rears up and roars, before dropping down to start to charge at the two men. The first looks over at his friend, and sees him kneeling over to put on his shoes... "What are you doing, Joe?!?! That bears coming!!!! We don't have time, we gotta run fast!!!! NOW!!!!!!" Joe looks up and says "I don't gotta run fast, Mack, I just gotta run faster than you...."

    Fun joke, and an old one... but it's far from accurate or a complete story. Mack could manage to hide. Joe could take so long tying his laces (with adrenaline the finer motor skills disappear) that the bear catches up to him first... or he never gets to start running at all. Running might get the bear to give chase, whereas another action might not have the same behaviour in the bear... what I'm saying is that running is not the only part of it, and "fast" isn't the whole story.

    Another example? A real one? Sure.

    A friend of my old instructors was in a bad relationship... domestic violence is never a good thing, and not always obvious from the outside. One night, she managed to get away from the guy. She ran. No shoes, just ran. Left the house and ran. As fast as she could. She thought he was going to go too far and really hurt her that night or worse. So she ran. Fast.

    Straight down the centre of the street.

    He came out onto the street, looked, and saw her immediately, then ran after her. She was caught, and it was only people in the houses coming out (and calling the police) that actually saved her then. Running fast was not the answer. Escape was... but she didn't do that. Now, if she'd trained in tactical escape methods, and concealment methods, she could have escaped.

    In other words, there's a lot more to this than most think.

    More tactical than technical... which is really a good way to describe self defence training as a whole. Yes, there is some technicality, but that's not the way it actually works.

    No, you get some guy arguing against accurate information because they don't understand how such things are measured.

    I get you think that's a joke, but, well... yeah. "Self defence running" is a thing... and "fast" isn't a part of it. "Fast" helps. But it's not what is relied upon... as we understand that there's a good chance the other guy could be faster... or there could be more of them... or the environment might not let you get far enough away... or weapons could be involved... and adrenaline will affect the other guy as much as you, making them stronger, faster, etc. And as far as "run(ning) according to ancient Japanese traditions", well, if you're studying those traditions, then that will be a very valid question... after all, if you can't, then you're not really doing that tradition.

    But this is your biggest disconnect, and I genuinely can't believe this has to be repeated again.... modern self defence and Classical Japanese martial arts are NOT THE SAME THING. They are not trained for the same reasons, for the same context, in the same way, and more. Why you continually try to imply that it's even a factor, especially after 28 pages of being told this, I have no idea... well, I do, but it's not flattering....

    I will say something else on the "run(ning) according to ancient Japanese traditions" though... pretty much all classical arts have their own approach to footwork... which can be very alien, or unusual, for modern Westerners to do... very different methods of shifting weight, transferring it across different parts of your feet, using different muscles than you "normally" do, and so on. Believe it or not, walking is as much cultural as it is biomechanically universal to humans. And even then, different systems have very different methods of walking. Those different methods of footwork (literally teaching you how to walk) then form the basis of the mechanics of the art you're learning... and influence the way any weapons are used, the distancing applied, power generation, speed, how you structure your body, and far more. So yeah... the question of whether you can do it according to the tradition becomes quite important.

    Dude, you don't reflect reality. That is nothing like "values", and values are always personal, so are not "personally interpreted". I mean.... should be buy you a dictionary for Christmas? Words seem to confuse you...

    Er... okay... is there any relevance to this? Other than yet another demonstration that you can't follow a basic idea?

    No.

    Completely wrong.

    Except yours?

    Look, jujutsu is a term that originated in the Edo period in Japan (mid-17th Century onwards)... although arts identified as jujutsu (even though other terms are used, such as hade, kogusoku, koshi no mawari, taijutsu, yawara,yawaragei, te, gei, wa, wajutsu, koshi, torite, and far more) go back a lot further, with the oldest recognised jujutsu-centric art being Takenouchi Ryu from around 1532.

    Karate originated in Okinawa, combining methods from China and the Ryukyu kingdom from the 17th century onwards, but only came to Japan in 1912 when Kano Jigoro was instrumental in getting Funakoshi Gichin to Japan to put on a demonstration. The first classes were in universities in 1918, and the modern name "karate" (empty hand) was officially adopted in 1936.

    Judo was founded in 1888 by Kano Jigoro, who held licence in two classical Jujutsu systems, the relatively new Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu (itself an off-shoot of the older Akiyama Yoshin Ryu line of Jujutsu, dating from around 1630), and Kito Ryu, an even older system that involved methods of fighting in armour among others.

    Aikido was created by Ueshiba Morihei, based largely in Daito Ryu Aikijutsu (itself founded/formulated by Takeda Sokaku at the end of the 19th/beginning of the 20th Century), but also influenced by Yagyu Shingan Ryu Taijutsu, Shinkage Ryu kenjutsu, Kukishin Ryu, and so on, beginning in the 1920's. Originally Ueshiba was teaching (and ranking his students in) Daito Ryu, but soon started to develop his own method, being recognised as a new art, named Aikido in the 30's.

    BJJ's origin in in the early 20th Century when Kano JIgoro began sending dan-ranked students around the world to help promote Japanese culture through his Kodokan judo, including Maeda Mitsuyo. Maeda taught a number of people, including members of a family named Gracie (note there are also other lineages, such as the Fadda lineage that are not related to the Gracies) over the course of a few years. The Gracies then continued to refine the techniques, focused on ground work, and developed through an approach of competitive bouts, both internally and with other arts/approaches. It rose to prominence in the 1990's with UFC.

    So... you still want to tell us that Japanese jujutsu "has always been a mixture of karate, judo, aikido, and BJJ techniques"?

    First off, a source for your quote would be helpful.

    Secondly, I don't think you have any idea what Japanese jujutsu is... particularly when it comes to classical arts (koryu). A good rule of thumb is that it's a general term, so trying to be specific, without applying it to a specific school, gets you into inaccurate territory pretty quickly... after all, does jujutsu include chokes? Yes? Hmm... Asayama Ichiden Ryu doesn't have any... is it an unarmed system? Yes? Well, that rules out Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu, Takenouchi Ryu, Shingetsu Muso Yanagi Ryu, Hontai Yoshin Ryu, Iga Ryu-ha Katsushin Ryu, Kiraku Ryu, and many more... I can go on, but the point is, such general statements are always going to be wrong in a large number of situations... reality is far more nuanced.

    Then you haven't been to actual Japanese jujutsu clubs.

    No, you.

    What does competition have to do with it? Classical Japanese arts don't do competition in the first place...

    No, those are different applications of a tactic. It's a bit wider than the "break your legs from anywhere" technique approach I responded to initially, but still not the same thing as I'm talking about.

    HAOV.

    What I'm saying is that what you describe is far more likely in a sporting competitive format and context, and, from a self-defence perspective (again, that has no relevance to the thread, and is purely a lack of understanding of classical arts on your end) is such a low likelihood situation, and such a limited and specialist response, that it goes against what would be expected of a self defence approach.

    Yes, they can. They are. The problem is you aren't aware of what that means in the context of classical arts.

    Either your misunderstanding what principles and differences in circumstances are, or your describing exactly not what you're meaning. Either way, no, it's not what you're describing.

    Competition itself means nothing in this...

    Yeah... I'm starting to think you misunderstand most of your lessons... you weren't trained to "force" a RNC, you were taught a way to open someone up for a RNC using strikes... the difference between a technical and a tactical mentality.

    And, as I've said, that's marketing.

    Dude. Enough. You've been told that your characterisation is inaccurate, and offensive. You've also been told that the reasons for training are different, so to insist that you apply your metrics is to completely miss the point.

    What we do is not "fairy dust BS". You don't understand it, nor have any experience in it, and have no way to comprehend what "practical" is. It is not "medieval Japanese dance". To be blunt here, it's far more martial than anything you've ever done. Plus a lot more realistic. It's just a completely different context.

    But enough with your comments. You'e been told this over and over again. Don't make us say it again.

    Oh, I love irony....

    So what? What has that to do with anything here?

    And all that shows is a complete lack of understanding about self defence at all... on pretty much every single level. But again, that's got nothing to do with the topic as you presented it... BJJ's rep is based in it's marketing, which is itself based in it's competitive record... Classical Japanese arts don't do competition, and also aren't about modern self defence, being, you know, classical arts. Self defence is on the outside of each of these... the only relevance is BJJ sometimes thinking it's got something to do with it (yeah... no), or people having a largely uninformed concept of martial arts (ie thinking they're all about self defence) when looking initially. In both cases, it has nothing to do with the idea of BJJ schools "replacing" classical ones... because, for the last time, they aren't.
     
  3. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Sigh.......

    This gets thrown around a bit and it is an excuse not context. It is kind of tragic to suggest your expertise is being able to out run someone with broken legs.

    People use this also with weapons. So if they train with a sword and then say but if I have a sword and they don't I would win so my training is superior.

    I mean it isn't. I can beat a guy if I have all the advantages without needing any training in it. That doesn't really make me an expert in anything.
     
  4. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

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    Ryan Hall is the one who pussies out of MMA because he knows he will lose. Just Like Marcelo did against a bum.
     
  5. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    true statements are not libel. You have in the past acknowledged zero real world experience with self defense, and I am pretty sure you have no real world experience with violence of any kind. You are, as I’ve said in the past, like a college professor. I enjoy your history lessons. I just understand the difference between skill and knowledge, and you seem not to. Having the latter doesn’t magically confer the former; experience is what bridges the two. Son. Frankly, your behavior just makes it more clear.

    but, you know, yesterday America broke up with a fascist, and not even your pompous arrogance and bloviation can ruin my good mood.
     
  6. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

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    I actually visited one of these American Ju Jutsu classes and it was 100% choreography, and at Low pace. Complete waste of time and money. You don't learn anything about self defense and you barely get a work-out from it.

    And believe it nor not, Aikido classes had more intensity and effectiveness.
     
  7. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    I measure things differently. I objectively test my methods against other methods by using competition, sparring, resistance. And exposure to other systems and people who train in them.

    By using this measurement method I ascribe value.

    Now I am not exactly a boring percentage fighter. I definitely do things that are fun but don't work very well. But because I value an honest measurement I at least know the difference.

    Changing that measurement doesn't really make anything more accurate. It just creates a logic or rhetoric that makes people feel good. So healing crystals will not be measured in the same way medicine is because it would of course fail. It will get measured in some way according to individual values that justifies them for people who like that kind of thing.
     
  8. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Ok. If I ascribe my own values to martial arts say in the terms of Japanese systems. Which you have said is cool for everyone to do.

    Basically your argument is have your values. I have my values you don't understand the system of merit I am using so therefore you cannot really make an assessment of my systems because you don't understand the measurements.

    Trying to test length by using kilograms.

    But then I don't really have to value Japanese history or its authenticity or value time spent in training effectiveness of technique. I can value whatever I want which is for now is the magical made up value of midichlorians.

    Because I have a massively high midichlorian count that is tested by a method you don't understand i have the ability to teach traditional Japanese systems that far surpasses yours.

    As I can test your midichlorians in a manner you wouldn't understand. Unfortunately due to your low midichlorians you can never properly teach those systems.

    This concept devalues martial arts instruction. Because now anyone can do it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2020
  9. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Yeah, no. It’s well documented that fighters have been purposely avoiding fights with Hall because his style is a terrible match up for theirs, and they fear getting their legs destroyed.


    I could have told you that.
     
  10. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

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    He said that he was venturing into the UFC, then backed out.
     
  11. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

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    If you were referring to American Ju Jutsu, then why not say so? It says Japanese Ju Jutsu in the topic
     
  12. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Ryan Hall has about 6-7 UFC fights on his record.

    You must be talking about Gordan Ryan.

    Because we're discussing all forms of Jujutsu. The point of this thread is to discuss if Brazilian JJ will continue on its path towards becoming the dominant form of Jujitsu due to its popularity and penetration in various countries around the world, including Japan.
     
  13. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    I find it unbelievable that you think that someone on top of another person, or someone being wrestled or struck to the ground is a low likelihood self defense situation. How do you think the majority of women are sexually assaulted? Standing up? Maybe that was the case in medieval Japan, but it isn't the case in the modern world.

    Their ability has never been objectively demonstrated in the modern era. You hear stories about it, and you see them do pretty demonstrations, but that's about it. The closest modern MA that utilizes that type of training model is Aikido, and by and large Aikidoka's ability to perform those techniques on a resisting opponent has been suspect.

    Again, the principle is controlling position, and using that ability to control a violent outcome.

    Semantics.

    Marketing backed by multiple forms of evidence.

    How is it inaccurate? You said yourself that your training revolves around medieval Japanese situations, weapons, tactics, and concepts. You even go so far as culturally appropriate language, norms, and dress.

    So if a woman wanted to learn how to defend herself you would seriously tell her to learn a medieval Japanese martial art that would teach her how to twirl a spear, learn a kata about a person getting attacked with a sword by a samurai, and how to properly bow during a tea ceremony....

    .....versus a BJJ or MMA school where she'll constantly have a burly hairy man on top her imposing his will on her, and that woman having to learn through skill and practice how to escape that situation and submit her attacker?

    I consider that quite irresponsible.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2020
  14. BrendanF

    BrendanF Green Belt

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    Strangely, for someone who champions bjj and Ryan Hall in every second post, you don't seem to be too familiar with his take on martial arts and self defense. He seems to have a level head about it:

     
  15. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Was there something specific in that video that contradicted anything I’ve said? He says at the end of that video that if he had to choose one art for self defense, he would choose Bjj.

    I should also point out that he refers to Bjj as simply “Jiujitsu”, which further illustrates my point that the term Jiujitsu is slowly but surely being linked to one particular style only (Bjj) in popular vernacular.
     
  16. O'Malley

    O'Malley Blue Belt

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    I think this sums up the biases and agenda underpinning this thread.

    BTW "jiujitsu" or "jits" cannot refer to Japanese jujutsu, as the convention is to use the correct transcription to refer to JJJ.
     
  17. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    What biases or underpinnings?

    Also it’s not just professional Bjj practitioners using that vernacular.
     
  18. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    [​IMG]
     
  19. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Speaking of which, I think a good question is BJJ's penetration of the Japanese market, and what long term effects that may have if it maintains or expands upon its current level of popularity in that country. No other American form of jujitsu has ever penetrated the Japanese market on the level that BJJ has. There could be a point that even in Japan, "Jiujitsu" simply means BJJ.

    I think we're rapidly approaching that reality quite quickly.
     
  20. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    BJJ is American? Do you mean in that in the continental sense? :D123
     

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