Why Silat?

[infinite beginner]

how many real fights have we ever seen where only one fighter gets hit compared to those where both take a strike at some point , so all the odds say whoever fights will likely get hit ,blindside surprise sucker punch ko's excluded but thats part of it ,where over if will we get struck big difference between winning, and coming out completely unscathed, at what point of skill level can one expect never to get hit, I would not argue with those who have argued at no point is the only valid answer, are we not in silat to trained to welcome estimate and accommodate all their forces motions and momentums directed our way, has any boxer been told by their corner ,do more hay maker head hutting ,but does that stop them from trying its like a hail mary a hole in one or a strike to get a clean first punch to the head , so isn't a good idea too always make the hardest targets appear to be the easiest, thats not an open question in my mind,so yes ,yes it is

 

[Transk53]

hay maker head hutting

??

so isn't a good idea too always make the hardest targets appear to be the easiest

Was not aware there was a sliding scale on that, but still there is sense in doing that. The fact is, the perceived hardest target will be the one hovering in the background. Seen many real fights where both take a hit, but that is purely down to the fact that 9 out of 10, are just unskilled. Mind you, this post is very difficult to discern, so I may have read it wrong.

 

[Reedone816]

Size and physical atributes does matter, but techniques, commitment and experience can balance that.
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[Transk53]

Size and physical atributes does matter, but techniques, commitment and experience can balance that.
Sent from my RM-943_apac_indonesia_207 using Tapatalk

You are indeed correct, but you have left out tactile sense.

 

[infinite beginner]

attack by drawing is all it means, just a long way saying abd, so to be clear, the widest umbrella range of effectiveness as by way of countering system, may seemingly be more inherent to unorthodox systems once they figure out they don't know where you're coming from it may be too late for them to counter as planed , or say on average it takes a back and forth counter , more than two times to apply technique in other words to practice blocking a jab cross and a kick is practicing three chances of getting hit on the way to the opponent,as opposed to shutting down their motion through evasion and relocation closing in .that is, the systems that have the best and fastest strategies in place for getting behind the opponents mobility and structure seem to be the most sophisticated and time tested , just how where and why one stands from start to finish can play a crucial role in the final outcome

 

[Reedone816]

Counter attack doesn't mean to counter it with another attack, but using your opponent commitment to attack we can use their power and multiply it.
One of that technique is called liliwatan (literally means to pass it through). This can be a finishing move or a start of a finishing combination.
The key is to have contact, let him commit more, then you let go of your commitment and let him through with additional push from you. That is liliwatan.
And while he pass through you, what can he do to stop what you can do at that moment? Because a good liliwatan nullifies his ability to defend because he will think only of regaining balance and survive.
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[infinite beginner]

exactly,we want them to pass through us, and hit a wall or an elbow, absorbing their maximum force , until its our force to place , wheresoever we please , pulling their force through us could take years to learn , then theres the art of what to do with the force after it ours and capturing it , we can throw it back or from side to side or forwards and downwards or upwards in all directions , ideally entangling them in their own force , now it seems what separates levels is knowing possibilities of being countered in everything they do, and there are thousands of counters for everyone technique executable , a newer student knows the techniques the offensive best and goes on that dreading anyone stop their motions in their tracks where more seasoned players incorporate the others counter into everything they do that is the recounter is not separate from the attacking strike so sure its great to control the force behind a hard strike flying in but even more complicated is controlling the force of their countering in other terms limiting their structure is part of the strategy, their counter striking is part of our initial striking, you have a confrontation or contest ,you see an opening line ,and aim a strike to the jaw etc one of two things will happen it will connect,or something will go wrong so where are you now structurally speaking ,but right where you want to be isn't it true no one from other martial arts has anything that works on us silat practitioners ,right? well what the efen heck good is it then , that it works on some but not all styles is not good enough ,tossing people around wearing the same logo don't mean that much , unless those players have and bring deep martial backgrounds onto the floor ,once I trained with this guy at a seminar class throwing him around like nothing, showing him stuff like a beginner ,only to find out later he was an akido instructor , another one might have gave me a harder time another an easier time who knows ,but its fortunate to train silat with allot of silat people with big martial arts junkie backgrounds , its like comparing checkers and chess , to be sure the one who invented checkers was heralded as brilliant by the locals, riding out their glory completely unaware that somewhere someone had just conceived the notion of of chess , seems allot talk about it but actual silat schools by comparison are few and classes are small it is still a very underground art ,traditionally handed /down generationally in near perfect tact , who knows what sophistications are yet unknown outside small circles

 

[Reedone816]

In cimande the is a saying, "whomever attack first, lose."
Original cimande is a counter art, it was known that they keep space with their opponent in 1.5 steps.
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[Dylan9d]

exactly,we want them to pass through us, and hit a wall or an elbow, absorbing their maximum force , until its our force to place , wheresoever we please , pulling their force through us could take years to learn , then theres the art of what to do with the force after it ours and capturing it , we can throw it back or from side to side or forwards and downwards or upwards in all directions , ideally entangling them in their own force , now it seems what separates levels is knowing possibilities of being countered in everything they do, and there are thousands of counters for everyone technique executable , a newer student knows the techniques the offensive best and goes on that dreading anyone stop their motions in their tracks where more seasoned players incorporate the others counter into everything they do that is the recounter is not separate from the attacking strike so sure its great to control the force behind a hard strike flying in but even more complicated is controlling the force of their countering in other terms limiting their structure is part of the strategy, their counter striking is part of our initial striking, you have a confrontation or contest ,you see an opening line ,and aim a strike to the jaw etc one of two things will happen it will connect,or something will go wrong so where are you now structurally speaking ,but right where you want to be isn't it true no one from other martial arts has anything that works on us silat practitioners ,right? well what the efen heck good is it then , that it works on some but not all styles is not good enough ,tossing people around wearing the same logo don't mean that much , unless those players have and bring deep martial backgrounds onto the floor ,once I trained with this guy at a seminar class throwing him around like nothing, showing him stuff like a beginner ,only to find out later he was an akido instructor , another one might have gave me a harder time another an easier time who knows ,but its fortunate to train silat with allot of silat people with big martial arts junkie backgrounds , its like comparing checkers and chess , to be sure the one who invented checkers was heralded as brilliant by the locals, riding out their glory completely unaware that somewhere someone had just conceived the notion of of chess , seems allot talk about it but actual silat schools by comparison are few and classes are small it is still a very underground art ,traditionally handed /down generationally in near perfect tact , who knows what sophistications are yet unknown outside small circles

Pretty full of yourself aren't you?

Thats exactly the reason i stopped with Silat after 9 years.

I got introduced when i was 19 yrs old to a guy named Raymond Ingram, and later to his dad Jim Ingram. Raymond was living in my hometown so he became my steady trainingspartner.
After 9 years of training with them on a daily base i quitted because i wanted to broaden my horizon. So i went on looking for more Silat, checked out most public lessons in my area but most teachers were so full of themselves, last school i tried was Bukti Negara and the people were nice but the art didn't felt right to me. In between i trained a year eskrima privatly and Krav Maga.

Last recent failure was a JKD trail lesson were the guys were so full of themselves.

Now i found a new home at the Ving Tsun school in my hometown wich has a very nice teacher and all really awesome people.

 

[Reedone816]

Pretty full of yourself aren't you?

Thats exactly the reason i stopped with Silat after 9 years.

I got introduced when i was 19 yrs old to a guy named Raymond Ingram, and later to his dad Jim Ingram. Raymond was living in my hometown so he became my steady trainingspartner.
After 9 years of training with them on a daily base i quitted because i wanted to broaden my horizon. So i went on looking for more Silat, checked out most public lessons in my area but most teachers were so full of themselves, last school i tried was Bukti Negara and the people were nice but the art didn't felt right to me. In between i trained a year eskrima privatly and Krav Maga.

Last recent failure was a JKD trail lesson were the guys were so full of themselves.

Now i found a new home at the Ving Tsun school in my hometown wich has a very nice teacher and all really awesome people.

It's a bit of a dilemma actually, in one part we need to have faith in the system we currently learning, but in other hand, by being blind how can we acknowledge our weakness?
The founder of the art I currently learning, need to learn to many masters, until fate guided him to his last two masters, and learning the flaws of the systems he had learned.
There was a quote from a grand master, that said, there is no art that is bad, it just the level of the practitioner it self is still low, once the level is high, the art will look good.
And about "full", even in the land of its birth, there are many "full" people, but the good thing is, the people at the top of the chain that i ever met are all really humble, that you can't guess from his/her attitude, that the one person can literally kill people in a snap.
It is a sad thing that you haven't met your clicks in silat, but again i myself met my path by accident, not because of careful and deliberate plan that i ended up learning this style.
But I'm happy for you since at least you finally found the system that match your hearth.

There was a nice story: When the student finished learning for the master, the master order the student to learn other ma, and comeback and test his new skill against the master, and on and on, until the master can be defeated by the student, the master it self without hesitation would look to learn from the last master his student learn to defeat him.

btw. Have you travel to Indonesia? the Grand Master of Mustika Kwitang H. Zakaria in 1960's in by invitation by the then President, put an awe on Masatoshi Nakayama and Donn F. Draeger for his unarmed performance and slick machete works.
Even though he is well known for his students achievement in competitions, and one of the founder of one of the biggest mass organization in Jakarta, he still lives in his humble home, with barely a furniture in it. In his old age, he also still teach in Kwitang Area.

 

[Dylan9d]

It's a bit of a dilemma actually, in one part we need to have faith in the system we currently learning, but in other hand, by being blind how can we acknowledge our weakness?
The founder of the art I currently learning, need to learn to many masters, until fate guided him to his last two masters, and learning the flaws of the systems he had learned.
There was a quote from a grand master, that said, there is no art that is bad, it just the level of the practitioner it self is still low, once the level is high, the art will look good.
And about "full", even in the land of its birth, there are many "full" people, but the good thing is, the people at the top of the chain that i ever met are all really humble, that you can't guess from his/her attitude, that the one person can literally kill people in a snap.
It is a sad thing that you haven't met your clicks in silat, but again i myself met my path by accident, not because of careful and deliberate plan that i ended up learning this style.
But I'm happy for you since at least you finally found the system that match your hearth.

There was a nice story: When the student finished learning for the master, the master order the student to learn other ma, and comeback and test his new skill against the master, and on and on, until the master can be defeated by the student, the master it self without hesitation would look to learn from the last master his student learn to defeat him.

btw. Have you travel to Indonesia? the Grand Master of Mustika Kwitang H. Zakaria in 1960's in by invitation by the then President, put an awe on Masatoshi Nakayama and Donn F. Draeger for his unarmed performance and slick machete works.
Even though he is well known for his students achievement in competitions, and one of the founder of one of the biggest mass organization in Jakarta, he still lives in his humble home, with barely a furniture in it. In his old age, he also still teach in Kwitang Area.

I haven't been in Indonesia. You are asking because of the whole Zakaria vs Ingram discussion from 10 years ago? Discussions like that only exsist in the so little world of Silat. And i do believe that the teachers in Indonesia are pretty humble people, but most Guru/Maha Guru/Pendekar outside Indonesia not so much.

To much politics in Silat and that i haven't had my "clicks" in Silat isn't true, else i wouldn't practiced it for 9 years.

Im happy were i am now, i am happy what i have learned in the past.

 

[Reedone816]

I haven't been in Indonesia. You are asking because of the whole Zakaria vs Ingram discussion from 10 years ago? Discussions like that only exsist in the so little world of Silat. And i do believe that the teachers in Indonesia are pretty humble people, but most Guru/Maha Guru/Pendekar outside Indonesia not so much.

To much politics in Silat and that i haven't had my "clicks" in Silat isn't true, else i wouldn't practiced it for 9 years.

Im happy were i am now, i am happy what i have learned in the past.

The truth is i was ignorant on that issue. After a little digging up i found that thing already settled?
Why i ask is that i found it is good to also look up to other lineages of the system we learn, since to my experience let us see thing in other point of view, thus enable us to see something that unthinkable before.
Anyway goodluck to you.

 

[infinite beginner]

hey I was almost offended till you listed the rest who were too full the art has nothing to do with anything but the art , what if a holes may hold the best art in town ,and the down to earth teacher maybe more removed less authentic , when your expected to cross over hot desert sands , and you put on some sandals do you say these aren't comfortable enough , I need birkenstocks , no you cross the desert and get to the other side, looks more like its a learning environment that suits you might take priority over the material being taught , I've been doing jkd over 20 yrs why, just yesterday I used an escrema stick to kill a spider, figure eight came in handy , I only actually had two years of class , what the hell does that mean ten years with one system and you jumped ship those big numbers indicate one never dedicated yourself much to the art ten years twice a week that means something , and if your not trained and ready to represent and train others after that ,somethings wrong with the picture , nine years but only on full moons means nothing the calendar has nothing to do with training experience its the hours clocked in on the classroom floor , some say I was with this teacher for ten years , no they were with the teacher for a few weekends each year spanning a decade but thats how the filling up of oneself most notoriously originates from the school hoppers and name droppers ,after ten yrs one should be expected to have mountains of material, I don't know much about those you've mentioned or why you would even throw your stones back in retrospect , after so many years, of daily training under them ,and anyone who goes around boasting of no ego is playing the same superiority game as the egotist only from a different angle , some have few exposures and start up schools based most entirely upon all the ego and the self importance they can generate to con their audience of novices

 

[infinite beginner]

theres all kinds of reasons for training it might well start purely self defense then take on other aspects of interest like stepping up to the challenge of what the body is able to gradually do, silat has allot of ground acrobatics many physiques may find hard to conform to, he who attacks first loses,okay but he who lands the first clean strike has the clear advantage, its a paper thin line , its better to get them as they start to attack us but a slit second longer is to late we may aim to offend the attack not defend against it,or in other words we want to fck them up out the gate to best do this requires all their might. ideally the object is they want to strike me with all their force, now they are punching into the corner or their friend with even more force , because after they have used all their force the rest is up for grabs simple in principle but more difficult in practice , with real time feeding ,where we deflect and they impale they selves into the jurus funny thing about the jurus ,some motions look like fighting some don't ,its the ones that don't that are the most effective and hard to counter tools ,because the jurus show what to do from any position ,from the one position shown , a juru motion in its home position is like a car in the drive way,can go in any direction from there

 

[infinite beginner]

well the jurus don't actually show sht, and learning how to move them around is bad advice without a teacher of the system , they aren't meant for amateur hour on the discovery channel , and joe public while your at it tell me off the top of your head what this page of Indonesian writing says ,you have about the same chance unlocking those juru or as getting that car out of the driveway on the road with no transmission, if they say juru nine elbow to a knee followed by a jab cross ,run get out of that anything goes with silat school as fast as possible ,you won't be doing the art any service ,its like saying I'm learning Spanish one menu item at a time, heres the thing silat is bigger than most styles ,yet much smaller, as there are hundreds of different kinds originating from tribes and families scattered all through out the islands with just a handful with some exceptions practicing each traditional art,

 

[Dylan9d]

hey I was almost offended till you listed the rest who were too full the art has nothing to do with anything but the art , what if a holes may hold the best art in town ,and the down to earth teacher maybe more removed less authentic , when your expected to cross over hot desert sands , and you put on some sandals do you say these aren't comfortable enough , I need birkenstocks , no you cross the desert and get to the other side, looks more like its a learning environment that suits you might take priority over the material being taught , I've been doing jkd over 20 yrs why, just yesterday I used an escrema stick to kill a spider, figure eight came in handy , I only actually had two years of class , what the hell does that mean ten years with one system and you jumped ship those big numbers indicate one never dedicated yourself much to the art ten years twice a week that means something , and if your not trained and ready to represent and train others after that ,somethings wrong with the picture , nine years but only on full moons means nothing the calendar has nothing to do with training experience its the hours clocked in on the classroom floor , some say I was with this teacher for ten years , no they were with the teacher for a few weekends each year spanning a decade but thats how the filling up of oneself most notoriously originates from the school hoppers and name droppers ,after ten yrs one should be expected to have mountains of material, I don't know much about those you've mentioned or why you would even throw your stones back in retrospect , after so many years, of daily training under them ,and anyone who goes around boasting of no ego is playing the same superiority game as the egotist only from a different angle , some have few exposures and start up schools based most entirely upon all the ego and the self importance they can generate to con their audience of novices

I think you need to learn to read i guess, i trained 9 years on a daily basis with the Ingrams. And daily it means every day for at least 2 hours.

But exactly your behaviour is the reason people see Silat practitioners as a bunch of whining clowns.

Who are you talking to anyways, you are most of the time brabbling on these boards.

 

[Reedone816]

a juru motion in its home position is like a car in the drive way,can go in any direction from there

Papat ke lima pancer.
Four directions front back left right, and the fifth is pancer.
The influence from hindu philosophy.

 

[infinite beginner]

Well I was trying to be more hypothetical than hyper critical but now I guess I'm talking to you mr D. wow, twice weekly , for exactly nine years , its it was obviously a nine year contract you must have been under , thats sounds pretty harsh ,but as you know allot silat schools usually only offer ten year training contracts for their students ,so you got off light, well it must of been a horrendous hitch , after ten years, of such obligatory dedication , at what phase of your training did this bitterness you have for those full of themselves begin to fester and fuse into your silat, I put principles into prose , you don't like it prove it wrong , pin point something ,instead of swooping down spewing sweeping generalizations , as small as silat is in the states,I doubt it will miss your leaving it behind ,it appears your time has left it no sizeable contribution,you step in or on one silat you step on all silat , theres no other art like it, and how some have the audacity , WHEN WE, ALL OR MOST , DECIDED DEDICATED LIFE TIME PRACTITIONERS OF THE ART OF SILAT, FOR SOMEONE TO COME ON, HERE, TO THIS SITE, A SILAT SITE, AND TRY TO PUT BLAME AND SHAME ON THE ART ,WITH YOUR MINORITY STORY OF YOUR DISSATISFACTION , OH ALL OF INDONESIA MUST BE DOING THE WRONG ART, ITS THE ARTS FAULT ,ITS TO BE SUPPOSED THE OTHER STUDENTS FLED IN DROVES ,WITH YOU AND WE WILL SOON HEAR FROM THEM, now you've opened the floodgates for, more to follow , soon there will be pages of testimonials of how the art let them down, after ten years, I don't really care , what you write ,or that the art you do now is silly , go back to silat while you still can, before those new principles make chop suey of your silat , and not you D alone this may sound like I'm fiull of myself but this goes to anyone ,stop what your doing go back to silat , silat is small here, don't desert it, condemn it , and dismiss it, like he has ,

 

[infinite beginner]

I guess its more like a jet hovercraft in the driveway four directions or rather five please expound, SEEMS THE STRUCTURE SUPPORTS four simultaneous power striking angles,mean if theres a circle around you can strike to any point initially then the rest from that position on a plus sign ,according to body physics,talking maximum power

 

[Reedone816]

I guess its more like a jet hovercraft in the driveway four directions or rather five please expound, SEEMS THE STRUCTURE SUPPORTS four simultaneous power striking angles,mean if theres a circle around you can strike to any point initially then the rest from that position on a plus sign ,according to body physics,talking maximum power

papat lima pancer, focus on stance/footwork. in west side of java, the silat movement divided into two category, jurus for hand and body movement, and pancer/langkah for feet movement and facing orientation.
so a complete silat move is an incorporation of those two, upper body+lower body.
why pancer is important it is because it is the base, without good base all jurus can't be executed in-perfection/flowed. that is why learning to do langkah (lit. walk) and pancer (lit. center/pivot) in proper way is critical.
there are two basic use in pancer, to change orientation and to change our opponent orientation.
for example in a scenario where your opponent attack you straight on, -base on philosophy in silat "lurus dilawan serong, serong dilawan lurus" (lit. straight be met with diagonal/skewed, diagonal/skewed be met with straight)- we met it with changing of pancer from straight to 45 degree facing, this way either with block/counter/throw/lock if successful we are "changing the opponent orientation", thus destroying his advance. now if we use lock or throw, by additionally doing a 90 or 180 degree pancer, we can place where we "land" the opponent.
this is useful if we met multiple attacker, we can use the opponent as a shield.
a nice sample of pola langkah and pancer, look at his footwork: