Why most martial arts don't work in self defense.

[drop bear]

To think that this kind of training can be sustained and is the only way is not only unwise, it is downright foolish.

No I am saying something different. I am saying that I constantly hear these tails of expertise from guys who don't have the fundamentals.

Standing arm bars are a great example. So if you had good basic wrestling and striking you should do ok in MMA.

Now without at least good fundamental wrestling concepts I don't see how you can get a standing arm bar to work.

And I spent years trying without them.

People just don't just fall in to these positions. They fight you.

But we have guys who will get simply dominated in tests of these fundamental tools essential to these techniques working. But then claiming that they are masters of some sort of system.

It quite simply doesn't add up.

 

[skribs]

No I am saying something different. I am saying that I constantly hear these tails of expertise from guys who don't have the fundamentals.

Standing arm bars are a great example. So if you had good basic wrestling and striking you should do ok in MMA.

Now without at least good fundamental wrestling concepts I don't see how you can get a standing arm bar to work.

And I spent years trying without them.

People just don't just fall in to these positions. They fight you.

But we have guys who will get simply dominated in tests of these fundamental tools essential to these techniques working. But then claiming that they are masters of some sort of system.

It quite simply doesn't add up.

You have no idea what fundamentals I do or don't have. You are so quick to point out where everyone else fails, or why nobody else is good enough. Get over yourself.

 

[wab25]

Standing arm bars are a great example. So if you had good basic wrestling and striking you should do ok in MMA.

Now without at least good fundamental wrestling concepts I don't see how you can get a standing arm bar to work.

What do you mean by "standing arm bar?" I have seen quite a few different things that could be considered a "standing arm bar," some I have been able to make work against full resistance, others not so much. But, it may be that we have a different definition of standing arm bar.

 

[skribs]

What do you mean by "standing arm bar?" I have seen quite a few different things that could be considered a "standing arm bar," some I have been able to make work against full resistance, others not so much. But, it may be that we have a different definition of standing arm bar.

It's a technique I've described to him that he didn't really understand, and so he's made it his personal mission lately to talk about how I don't know anything. I've got him on ignore, so I don't usually see what he says, but the last few times I've clicked "show ignored content" I see him calling me out. There was another thread where he said:

"More consistent than say Skribs ever getting an arm bar to work in a fight."

He's got some weird obsession with me lately. It's times like this I'm glad I don't post my personal information on this site.

 

[mrt2]

Find this discussion in another forum. IMO, some valid points are made here. What are the proper solutions? Your thought?
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Here's a detailed explanation why most martial arts don't work in self defense.

1. Wrong assumptions - Martial artists make many wrong assumptions about the streets. They assume it's going to be a fair fight. They assume they're going to face one untrained opponent. I could go on and on. When you're on the streets, you're not in your turf. You're in the criminal's territory. Street attackers don't follow your dojo or MMA gym's rules. They go by street rules which often has no rules.

2. Trying to control too many variables - The second biggest problem with most martial arts is they try to control too many variables. They often do demos. with compliant partners and spar with people of the same style. They add rules of what is and is not allowed in sparring. Truthfully, you can't control everything that happens in the streets. There's going to be things outside of your control. You can't really predict how your attacker will attack. All you can do is make educated guesses.

3. Unrealistic scenarios - Most martial artists engage in very unrealistic scenarios. They assume a street attacker will attack the way in a controlled manner usually in the defender's own art. That's far from reality. Most attackers attack chaotically with wild punches, kicks, bearhugs, bodyslams, headbutts, tackles, sucker punches, etc. It's going to be too fast and chaotic for your techniques to work.

4. Unrealistic techniques - Most martial artists have unrealistic techniques. They're too flashy to work in combat. They usually think in sequences. The problem with sequences is you're assuming your attacker won't react or resist. They usually resist the moment you try to do your first technique which makes it harder for you to execute your second one.

5. Unrealistic mindset - Most martial artists train with a sports mindset. They don't know the difference between an attack and a fight. An attack is a violent act meant to hurt you without your consent whereas a fight is agreed on. In a fight, there's some degree of respect and protection via. referees, mats, gloves, etc. That doesn't exist in a real attack. Street attackers have no problem bashing your skull in with a pipe. There's more blood and guts in street attacks than there is in fighting.

6. Impractical exercises - Martial artists often engage in pointless work outs like flow drills and forms. Flow drills don't translate well to real combat for several reasons. 1) Your attacker won't stay in one range. Your attacker will start in one distance then move to another. 2) There's no intent to attack. People who do flow drills often attack with the intent for their partners to defend and counter then repeat. Martial artists say "well the point of flow drills is to practice your reflexes, speed, coordination, etc." Well, getting those benefits practicing flow drills is the equivalent of playing patty-cakes with your hands. Forms are also useless. You can practice your techniques on an imaginary opponent all day, but things completely change when you're dealing with a real attacker. Martial artists think they're improving their stance, structure, techniques, etc. by doing forms. They're in for a rude awakening when they get attacked and can't maintain their forms under pressure via. getting rammed against, getting punched wildly, etc.

7. Ignorance of weapons and multiple attackers - Most martial artists neglect training against multiple attackers and armed attackers. They'll say "no art can deal with such situations" or "run" to justify bad training. If they do train against them, it's usually scripted and too flashy to be realistic. In fact, most martial artists who get attacked on the streets end up hurt or killed by weapons and/or multiple attackers.

8. Ignorance of stress - Most martial artists don't realize stress can greatly decrease your performance. It's not enough to simply spar full contact. When you reached a certain level of stress, your brain forgets complex motor skills because it's not necessary for survival. That means all your flashy techniques become useless. You'll get tunnel vision, stiff muscles, difficulty concentrating, difficulty breathing, etc. If you don't know how to manage stress, your techniques will suffer and might find yourself getting beaten up regardless if you had the right training or not.

9. Wrong techniques - Martial artists often train with the wrong techniques. They think if a punch or kick lands, it works. Nothing could be further from the truth. If it doesn't end the threat fast be it by breaking your attacker's limbs or knocking him/her out, it's not helping you defend yourself. Like the case with Meredith Kercher. She was a Karateka who got jumped by two people who plotted to kill her with knives. She fought for her life using Karate. She still got stabbed multiple times with knives, raped, and died with a sit throat. People can take Karate punches because they don't pack as much as power as other arts like boxing.

That's why most martial arts are impractical for self defense.

Some decent points here, and honestly, there is no solution to the problem.

1. While most martial arts claim to help with self defense, few actually focus on self defense all the time. To the extent that training even 2 or 3 times a week with improve a person's confidence and fitness, that alone is something as a confident and fit person is less likely to be a target than someone who is obviously not fit and lacks confidence.

2. Something is still better than nothing. In my style of TKD, do study self defense, but either against a semi compliant partner, or against a heavy bag. In theory, a side kick to the knee could or should buckle the knee and make an opponent fall to the floor. And a hook punch to the jaw or side of the head should be a knockout blow. But can you land it when your opponent is moving, and you are stressed out? You can't actually hit hard enough to damage a knee or break somebody's jaw, or nose, because it would be an insurance nightmare, and frankly, a lot of folks do MA for their health. And it isn't good for your health to show up at work with broken ribs every other week.

That said, having something that might work is better than having nothing at all, so long as you are humble enough to realize something might or might not work.

 

[skribs]

2. Something is still better than nothing. In my style of TKD, do study self defense, but either against a semi compliant partner, or against a heavy bag. In theory, a side kick to the knee could or should buckle the knee and make an opponent fall to the floor. And a hook punch to the jaw or side of the head should be a knockout blow. But can you land it when your opponent is moving, and you are stressed out? You can't actually hit hard enough to damage a knee or break somebody's jaw, or nose, because it would be an insurance nightmare, and frankly, a lot of folks do MA for their health. And it isn't good for your health to show up at work with broken ribs every other week.

I think the thing is finding a balance between those dangerous techniques and sparring. The MMA guys like to make fun of Krav and TMAs for suggesting things like "poke the eyes and kick the groin", but there's a reason those techniques are banned in competition - for player safety.

On the other hand, there are a lot of schools that don't spar, because "our techniques are too deadly to spar with". They can't find a way to spar against each other without hurting each other, which is just as bad.

In my opinion, TKD falls a little bit flat in this regard, since the sparring ruleset is very limited and a lot of the other stuff isn't pressure tested. But you still do learn a lot of distance control and timing in the sparring. (Which is why I said "a little flat", because there's still a lot there).

 

[mrt2]

I think the thing is finding a balance between those dangerous techniques and sparring. The MMA guys like to make fun of Krav and TMAs for suggesting things like "poke the eyes and kick the groin", but there's a reason those techniques are banned in competition - for player safety.

On the other hand, there are a lot of schools that don't spar, because "our techniques are too deadly to spar with". They can't find a way to spar against each other without hurting each other, which is just as bad.

In my opinion, TKD falls a little bit flat in this regard, since the sparring ruleset is very limited and a lot of the other stuff isn't pressure tested. But you still do learn a lot of distance control and timing in the sparring. (Which is why I said "a little flat", because there's still a lot there).

We do partner drills with the pads on, as well as partner drills with shields. One of the assistant instructors has started to work specifically on self defense combinations focusing on hitting for power and instead of, for example, a roundhouse kick to the head (because in Sport TKD, a kick to the head is a point, where as a punch to the head is not allowed), maybe doing a low side kick followed by a punch combination to the face.

 

[skribs]

We do partner drills with the pads on, as well as partner drills with shields. One of the assistant instructors has started to work specifically on self defense combinations focusing on hitting for power and instead of, for example, a roundhouse kick to the head (because in Sport TKD, a kick to the head is a point, where as a punch to the head is not allowed), maybe doing a low side kick followed by a punch combination to the face.

And what do you do if they catch your leg, or those punches miss?

 

[drop bear]

You have no idea what fundamentals I do or don't have. You are so quick to point out where everyone else fails, or why nobody else is good enough. Get over yourself.

Ok then how good is your striking and wrestling?

 

[mrt2]

And what do you do if they catch your leg, or those punches miss?

I guess you get your butt kicked, or worse.

 

[skribs]

Ok then how good is your striking and wrestling?

I'm not engaging in this discussion with you again. I have you on ignore. Please leave me out of your posts. If I'm not engaged with you in the conversation, there's no reason to keep bringing me up. What you're doing now is the equivalent of spreading rumors and talking about someone behind their back. It's more examples of your toxicity and why I put you on ignore in the first place.

I guess you get your butt kicked, or worse.

That's my point. You have these rote drills you know, but you don't know what to do when those drills don't work. And that's the point in the OP. A Muay Thai fighter or MMA fighter will know what to do when their combination fails or gets countered, because they're training not just the techniques themselves, but how to adapt if their technique fails. In Taekwondo, you most often do that with the kicking game, but you don't do that if your kicks get grabbed.

It's a problem that plagues most arts. If you train only Muay Thai, you probably don't have much groundfighting. If you train only wrestling, how are you going to deal with a punch or a knee? If you only train in boxing, what are you going to do when you get kicked or wrapped up? These arts deal with it by cross-training and taking MMA classes.

In Taekwondo, you learn a punch defense as a block, grab the arm, throw a strike, and sweep the leg to shove them down. This is a good combo, but what if you can't grab the arm? What if they block your strike, or use a handgrab defense on you? What if the step over the sweep? In the way TKD is often done, there isn't an answer. Can you throw the sweep? In most cases, yes. But you can't execute the sweep on someone who is prepared for it. Some schools account for this in their training, but from what I've read it isn't very common.

Compare this to my Hapkido experience, which is much more about feeling the resistance of your opponent and selecting a technique based on that resistance. If we fail in one direction we can succeed in another. If we expect our opponent to fall one way, and he falls a different way, we're trained how to adjust and select a different controlling or finishing move.

If your training is "here is the combination, if it fails, you'll get your butt kicked" then your training is insufficient.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

And what do you do if they catch your leg?

- Stick your leg into your opponent's groin.
- Control his shoulders.
- Try to block his right leg, sweep his left leg, or drag him down when he shifts weight.

Of course when your opponent uses his arms to grab on your leg, you can punch on his head.

 

[drop bear]

N

I'm not engaging in this discussion with you again. I have you on ignore. Please leave me out of your posts. If I'm not engaged with you in the conversation, there's no reason to keep bringing me up. What you're doing now is the equivalent of spreading rumors and talking about someone behind their back. It's more examples of your toxicity and why I put you on ignore in the first place.

Yeah. Your system works but nobody can see it, you can't properly train it and don't ask about it.

And if i do ask I am being mean.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What do you guys think about these kind of comment?

- If you care about fighting, go buy yourself a gun.
- MA is much more than just fighting, MA can help you to achieve self-cultivation (can someone be able to explain what self-cultivation mean?), inner peace, culture enhancement, ...
- Doing Taiji a day, keep the fighting away.
- If you can achieve no-fighting, you don't need fighting.
- If you kill yourself, nobody can kill you.
- ...

 

[drop bear]

What do you mean by "standing arm bar?" I have seen quite a few different things that could be considered a "standing arm bar," some I have been able to make work against full resistance, others not so much. But, it may be that we have a different definition of standing arm bar.

In Skribs case they were arm bars he couldn't actually train without breaking people's arms.

Or not. We don't know because we also can't see them.

But they are a fundamental linchpin for his system of winning fights.

Mabye they were unicorn arm bars.

All of which is academic because if you can't wrestle you are not getting an arm bar on any time soon anyway.

So the point is kind of like this.

These guys might have great or terrible jujitsu. We don't know because they are missing fundamental concepts that will get them in to a position to try it.

 

[skribs]

What do you guys think about these kind of comment?

- If you care about fighting, go buy yourself a gun.
- MA is much more than just fighting, MA can help you to achieve self-cultivation (can someone be able to explain what self-cultivation mean?), inner peace, culture enhancement, ...
- Doing Taiji a day, keep the fighting away.
- If you can achieve no-fighting, you don't need fighting.
- If you kill yourself, nobody can kill you.
- ...

1. True - guns are an equalizer.
2. Also true
3. Maybe?
4. Not true. Sometimes you have no other choice.
5. Morbid

 

[skribs]

In Skribs case they were arm bars he couldn't actually train without breaking people's arms.

Or not. We don't know because we also can't see them.

But they are a fundamental linchpin for his system of winning fights.

I never said they were a fundamental linchpin for my system of winning fights. They're just one technique in my arsenal.

I also never said I couldn't train them without breaking people's arms. I said that if I gave them a chance to tap, they could escape during that pause.

Are you purposefully lying about what I said to make me look worse? The only alternative I can think of is that you lack the basic reading comprehension to understand what I said. But I don't want to insult your intelligence or your character, so I'd rather you just leave me alone so I can do the same.

 

[drop bear]

I never said they were a fundamental linchpin for my system of winning fights. They're just one technique in my arsenal.

I also never said I couldn't train them without breaking people's arms. I said that if I gave them a chance to tap, they could escape during that pause.

Are you purposefully lying about what I said to make me look worse? The only alternative I can think of is that you lack the basic reading comprehension to understand what I said. But I don't want to insult your intelligence or your character, so I'd rather you just leave me alone so I can do the same.

You assume that if you hide all the support for what you say I can't make a conclusion that you are not being honest.

But the fact you are hiding any support draws the conclusion you are not being honest.

E.g..
I am the best singer in the world I just can't do it right now.

We can conclude that I am probably not the best singer in the world.

This prevents me from running around believing in fairies and standing arm bars.

This is also very important when determining why most martial arts don't work in self defense. Because that way I can at least determine who is telling the truth without having to spend a bunch of time in the system.

 

[drop bear]

I never said they were a fundamental linchpin for my system of winning fights. They're just one technique in my arsenal.

I thought this was why what you train doesn't work in MMA. Because your system relies so heavily on techniques that are banned in competition.

I would have described that as a linchpin.

I also think the argument is purposefully lying. Because to get those arm bars you need a good grasp of fundamental wrestling.

If you have a good grasp of wrestling fundamentals your system would work in MMA.

See it all ties together.

 

[skribs]

Edited post: @drop bear there's nothing good that's going to come from us arguing. Please just leave me alone.