Why does MMA count as an own martial art now ?

Discussion in 'MMA' started by JohnnyEnglish, Aug 2, 2015.

  1. Danny T

    Danny T Senior Master

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    Thank you for your opinion. Which is just an opinion. Unfortunately you are not quite correct in your opinion that one doesn't learn critical techniques or applications. To be a good sport fighter one must learn and be able to apply critical actions.

    This statement shows you do not understand the what is happening therefore do not appreciate what the fighters go through in training and practice mentally as well as physically to prepare for competition.
     
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  2. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    What makes you think there is no respect in the fights? Do you know any fighters, coaches etc? All this is down to your own dislike of something you haven't taken the effort to understand. Boxing is actually more brutal, you can be knocked out but continue if you come around and 'beat' the count, it can happen more than once in a fight as well. The boxers sole aim is to KO his opponent whereas in MMA, if you are KOd there is no count because you are out, you don't continue in a dazed or damaged state. In MMA a KO isn't necessary, you aren't looking to beat your opponents head into a pulp but to get a submission, most KOs in MMA are technical ones where the ref has stopped the fight which in any case is always shorter than boxing bouts.
    There is a high standard of sportsmanship in MMA most fighters are from what is called a traditional background, respect for each other is common. There is trash talk encouraged by some promoters of course but there is in boxing and others sports, if there's a commercial gain to be made someone will use it.
    None of what we learn in any martial art is nice, it's all designed to hurt, maim and even kill. None of it is honourable or pleasant, it can't be if it is to be effective. We as the practitioners make ourselves respectful and honourable and I can assure you that MMAers are no different in that respect. There are the fanboys of course but then there are also the kick boxing ones, the BJJ ones etc etc. However you don't judge a style or sport by them.
    Would I be correct in thinking that you also don't like women fighting? That attitude usually goes with your type of thoughts on MMA.
     
  3. JohnnyEnglish

    JohnnyEnglish Green Belt

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    I didn't know that you learn hits to the neck, backbone-twisters and eyeknocks in MMA, because this is usually a thing you can only find in martial arts like Karate,Kung-Fu or Gjogsul.

    I don't respect people who train hard for competitions where opponents get beaten when on the ground, I do not accept the whole MMA-scene as a sport. It's a plain brawl leaded by some lads who mixed certain martial arts together to abuse them as good as they could.

    This is all what I am having to say about it. MMA is not for self-defense and MMA is not a " clean " fightsport either, take the term " sport " away and there you go.

    If it helps you, I was actually fighting and training in a MMA club for a couple of months, but it still did not change my opinion, all you are getting trained in is to hurt and bring down the opponent as soon as possible, only to continue the beating when he is already on the ground so he is not able to stand up anymore.

    When I am going in to a competition, where hands and arms are used, I don't want a plain brawl using some muay-thai kicks and still beating my already beat down opponent just because he is still able to move and might stand up again.

    MMA is against all my moralic believes.
     
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  4. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    You know I don't think you understand martial arts at all. All the techniques come from the traditional style. In Wado Ryu we are taught techniques to take someone down and when they are down axe kick them to the body or head. We are taught how to break limbs, noses, collar bones, strike to the liver, kidneys, gouge, strike to the throat and much more. Actually most of that is banned in MMA comps!
    Your lack of knowledge if martial arts both withstanding whatever training you may have been had is leading you to make judgements that are flawed. As I said before you don't have to like MMA but before making pronouncements which amount to severe style bashing something not allowed here by the way, you really need to learn more about martial arts in general.
     
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  5. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    A few fallacies in that sentence:

    1) MMA fighting is not uncontrolled
    2) Neither is it "respectless". There are certainly individual competitors who are disrespectful, but on average I see as much respect from MMA practitioners as from any other style of martial arts. To be sure, there's a lot less formality in MMA, but formalities are not the same as respect.
    3) In any case, like it or not, respect is not required as part of the definition of a martial art. It's certainly a good thing for martial artists (and others) to have and many martial arts instructors and organizations claim it as an important ideal, but it's not the thing that makes a martial art a martial art.

    Very true. On the other hand, mixing up elements from prior systems doesn't mean you haven't created a new system either. It comes down to what you've done with those elements - have you created a cohesive set of principles, training methods, and techniques? I think you can make a decent argument that the practitioners of MMA have done so or are in the process of doing so.

    Yeah ... that pretty much comes down to the limitations of your experience and perceptions.

    Simple ... not really. There's a lot going on in high level MMA competition on technical, tactical, and strategic levels.

    Dumb ... I suppose that depends on what you mean. If it's just a simple pejorative indicating that you don't like it, then fair enough, you're entitled to your opinion. If you mean that the fighters aren't highly skilled and knowledgeable martial artists, then you are sorely mistaken.
     
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  6. Danny T

    Danny T Senior Master

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    Hits to the neck - yes.
    Back-twisters - yes (have you ever heard of the twister?)
    Eyeknocks - not familar with this term but if it means hitting the eye - yes (eye jabs are illegal but are used by some)

    As to respect; I've witness fall more respect in the MMA circles than in a lot of the 'martial arts competitions/tournaments I've been to over the years. (lying about rank to compete at a lower rank just to win, lying about contact or lack of contact, worse is winning a event and bragging about winning vs no competition in ones division.) A lot of respect there.

    What most who do not know or understand is the selling of the show is not what most fighter are about. That is Show selling. All the trash talking, all the getting in each other's face is selling. The face off is Selling the Show, some like it but most don't they do it because that is a part of the job. Yes, a few act badly and aren't respectful but they are in the minority.

    Most high level MMA fighters are Martial Artists and are high level practitioners in more than one art. Many are ranked high in multiple arts and continue to train in them.

    In our training center 'all' of our fighters must train in Muay Thai, Combat Submission Wrestling, and at least one other art. We do not just train and fight with a hodge podge assortment of punching, kicking, and ground n pound. Neither does most all of the mma gyms I've visited.
     
  7. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Ok. If I make a cake. Is it considered a cake or is it a bunch of flour,butter,chocolate and so on.

    Mma is a martial art because it exists as one. In that there are physical schools teaching mma.
     
  8. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    That is fine there are plenty of fight sports that don't go to ground.

    You could even do mma and not fight on the ground if you wanted. Just stop back up and let the other guy stand up.
     
  9. Drose427

    Drose427 3rd Black Belt

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    I suppose it depends on what you look at as the ingredients

    Punch + Kick + Forms = TKD/Karate Cake

    Punch + Kick + Clinch = Muay Thai Cake

    Shot + Sprawl + Subs = Submission Wrestling Cake

    TKD/Karate Cake + Submission Wrestling Cake = a new cake, but you can still see the filling and icing of the other cakes within

    We've butted heads on this before so I dont wanna dredge it up too much more, but having a physical school doesnt make it so...

    There are schools teaching ki blasts, but most folks dont consider them full martial arts
     
  10. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    How exactly does having a physical school not make it so. I mean I can physically show you mma as a martial art.

    So it is a real thing.

    Yes you can see some of the inspiration for mma that comes from other martial arts. But that does not invalidate mma as a martial art.

    Or you would invalidate most modern martial arts.
     
  11. Drose427

    Drose427 3rd Black Belt

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    no it only proves you can show MMA as a competition
     
  12. Andrew Green

    Andrew Green Grandmaster

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    Wait... MMA is not a martial art because it covers un-sportsman like things like fighting while on the ground... but you want to kick people in the nuts?

    Gotcha.
     
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  13. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Because there are not mma classes. With students learning mma from mma instructors and getting mma belts. And those students might compete or might not.

    I mean what more do you want to qualify as a martial art?
     
  14. Hyoho

    Hyoho Black Belt

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    Well there are a few that can mix things and end up with something special. They don't come along very often. There are those that can't figure out one thing and do it well that add their own idiosyncrasies and give it a new name. Those that look at all this from an 'artistic' point of view spend most of their time trying to separate the 'more than one art' that they do. Not mix them up MMA is the name they use. Most of all it does what they want it to do. Make money. I do like to watch the more professional guys doing it. But a lot of the times its boring as there are too many rules.
     
  15. TSDTexan

    TSDTexan Master of Arts

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    I see the OP is knocking mma as a martial art.
    So is Kyudo "the way of the bow" a martial art?
    It has form, and you shoot a very specific type of bow.

    At higher levels this bow is used from horseback.
    It is an art form traced directly back to the samurai.

    Its an art that doesn't involve sparing.

    If it is ever used against a person, odds are you will kill or critical injure them.
     
  16. JohnnyEnglish

    JohnnyEnglish Green Belt

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    You totally misinterpret what I am saying.

    1. I've been saying that MMA is not a martial art, because it simply copies many other styles, not because it's un-sportsman fighting-rules.

    2. I've said I would kick somebody in the nuts in a SELF-DEFENSE situation, sure! MMA is not a SD, MMA is a " sport ". A competitive sport. I think ground-fighting in a competitive sport is totally fine, but BEATING somebody with your fists in to the face while he is laying below you, this is a NO go and counts as UN-SPORTSMAN behaviour, in my personal opinion. Let the pal stand up again and fight him, knock him out while he is standing and not while you are sitting on him. To use grappling techniques like chokes and stuff on the ground, is totally fine. We also have similar things in sports like old-european wrestling.



    That's all I was saying! I am not in the position to judge what MMA is and what is is not, or what is fair in MMA and what is not fair in MMA. But I am in the position to spread my opinion about this " sport ".

    However, everyone has it's own opinion about certain martial arts, I usually respect all martial arts and their systems, but I simply do not accept MMA as a martial art, it's actually the only so called " martial art " I do NOT accept as a " martial art ". But since I am a total beginner and never did MMA for a very long time, like some of you guys maybe did, you should not care too much about what I am saying. To me it feels like many people in this forum are getting too upset, if I hurt your feelings about your sport which probably is MMA, I am sorry! As long as you are having fun doing it and feel like a fair and good fighter beating somebodies face in to the ground, do it. If it is so right and fair what you are doing there, you should not even care about what I am saying. But for some reason it feels like I hit some peoples " wounded-sport " when I am saying that MMA is a thug-sport and has nothing to do with real and fair martial arts competitions.

    However, in general I am done with this thread, I don't want it to go too " abroad ".
     
  17. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    You might want to work on your communication skills in that case.

    So you think that MMA is not a martial art because the techniques come from other arts? You do realize that the techniques in TKD come from earlier martial arts as well, right? Does that mean you also don't consider TKD to be a martial art either?

    Are you familiar with the phrase "argument by assertion"? You keep asserting that knocking someone out on their feet is somehow more sporting/fair/morally superior/whatever to knocking them out on the ground. You have yet to explain why. If you want your opinions to be taken seriously, it helps to explain why you believe them to be true.

    Once again, assertion without any support. Even if you don't like striking on the ground, can you explain why its presence makes a competition in any way less "fair" or "real"?

    If you keep making poorly thought out claims and refusing to supply any backing for your statements, then you will indeed eventually be thought of as a troll and ignored. In the meantime, we're all here because we like to talk about the martial arts. If you post on a topic that people are interested in, they are likely to respond.
     
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  18. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Firstly, no one is getting upset and feelings aren't being hurt.
    The problem isn't that you dislike MMA it's that you dislike an MMA that you have made up and not what is really MMA.
    Imagine if I said 'well I hate TKD because they are always shouting at each other and hitting each other with sticks and then there's the way they make little children break boards, it's disgusting', you would be wondering what I was talking about, it's a misconceived idea of what TKD is and what they do. Now look at the things you are saying about MMA, we are telling you that your ideas of it don't match the reality. You are disliking something that doesn't exist, MMA is something different from what you think it is. Now you can listen to people who do know what it is or you can ignore MMA altogether but really you cannot on here carry on trashing a style because of what you think it is, really though you shouldn't be trashing any style on here.
     
  19. Danny T

    Danny T Senior Master

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    "MMA is not a martial art, because it simply copies many other styles..."
    Is TKD a not a martial art because it was developed during the 1940s and 1950s as a blending of some indigenous Korean fighting styles which were influence by Okinawan karate and some Chinese martial systems?
    Is Japanese Karate not a martial art because is copied many of the Okinawan styles?
    Is Munda Muda Silat not a martial art because is copied from 32 of the fighting styles from all of the Southeast Asian areas?
    Is JKD not a martial art because it copied and utilizes all styles?
    Is Wing Chun not a martial art because it copies predominantly from the Crane and Snake systems?
    Is the Pekiti-Tirsia Kali not an martial art because is copied and drew heavily from 5 other Filipino martial systems and has copied firearms training within it?
    Today, whether anyone agrees or disagrees with it or not, MMA has become a specialized form of competitive martial art. It has also grown into a specific type of exercise training and a self-defense method of training as well.
     
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  20. tshadowchaser

    tshadowchaser Sr. Grandmaster

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    MMA = Mixed Martial Arts not mixed martial art.
    It incorporates many arts depending what school/training facility you train at. Can the knowledge learned there be used in the street, to defend oneself, or possibly in a combat situation in war YES therefor it can be classified as a martial art even if it has many variations.
    Will it survive in it's present form for a century, maybe maybe not but then many of the martial arts have under gone changes in their emphases and teachings over time. Also most where a combination of techniques from more than one instructor when they where first introduced.123
     
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