Why does MMA count as an own martial art now ?

Discussion in 'MMA' started by JohnnyEnglish, Aug 2, 2015.

  1. JohnnyEnglish

    JohnnyEnglish Green Belt

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    I mean, they take techniques from other martial arts like Jiu-Jitsu,Kickboxing,Karate,Taekwondo,Muay-Thai and use them to bring down the opponent, to continue beating him/her when he/her is already on the ground. Where is this an own martial art ? This is more likely combined use of martial arts and abusing them.

    I am a big fan of full contact in martial arts like kickboxing,boxing or even Karate, but I think all the " borders " are crossed when you hit somebody who is already on the ground, this has nothing to do with martial arts, this is just having a dirty fight with someone.

    So how did it happen that we call MMA an own martial art now ?
     
  2. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    I really think you don't understand MMA at all if you think it's a continued beating when on the floor. Far from being an abuse it's more like physical chess. it's hardly a 'new' martial art either, as most know it was practised as Pankration in ancient Greek times and many consider JKD to be the first modern MMA.
    I'd suggest learning about MMA first before making rather unconsidered criticisms of it, unless you are looking to troll?
     
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  3. JohnnyEnglish

    JohnnyEnglish Green Belt

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    Do you seriously want to compare Pankration with glove wearing people who continue beating when somebody is on the ground but also include TKO ? lololol ?

    I watched enough MMA fights to build an own opinion about it, my opinion towards MMA is more negative than positive, which does not mean I don't know anything about it.

    I can show you plenty of videos where an opponent lays on the ground and still get's his teeth beaten out his face. And sorry, but this is not how I was raised, from childhood on, I was tought, NEVER hit somebody who is already on the ground! This is a rule I would follow in a street fight and a rule I will for sure also follow in a competition.

    From what I've learned about ancient Pankration, it is really too brutal to make a comparison to modern MMA, at least in a competition. As much as they beat the stuffing out of eachother, I seriously dought modern MMA fighters want to KILL eachother like the practitioners of ancient Pankration.

    If you compare todays pankration to MMA, there is a good similarity, sure!


    + I have a similar opinion about modern pankration as about modern MMA.
     
  4. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    I would suggest you know very little about MMA, I don't think you know the rules or how the refs work here, I don't know any ref in this country that would allow someone to be 'beaten up' while defenceless, in fact the rules say that a fight must be stopped when a fighter can no longer intelligently defend themselves. I also think you know little about BJJ/Judo/Grappling because if you did you would know that you are not defenceless when on the ground, not even when you are on your back.

    Pleas post these videos that show these fighters being beaten up.
     
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  5. JohnnyEnglish

    JohnnyEnglish Green Belt

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    There you go.

    Check this one, the guy goes to the ground and the other follows to beat his laying opponent in to the face.



    Or this one.



    There are plent more, just have a look by yourself.
     
  6. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    For goodness sake they aren't defenceless you have totally misunderstood what is going on! You do know that part of MMA is ground fighting right?
     
  7. JohnnyEnglish

    JohnnyEnglish Green Belt

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    Haha, I totally know what is going on, and I for sure know that a part is GROUND FIGHTING. If this is how you would like to call it. It also is not about defenseless, I've never said that. I only said I was raised to NOT beat somebody on the ground, you always let stand up your opponent to continue the fight. For sure it would be different in Judo or Jiu-Jitsu. But to beat somebody who is below you, wheter it is sitting or laying, does not matter. It is honorless and dirty to do so, and I refuse to call MMA a martial art or even a sport.

    This is my opinion. Which I don't will change. I guess I am too old school for MMA.
     
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  8. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Bollocks, that's complete nonsense, you have no understanding of it and are making completely ignorant criticisms... you don't have to like it but really you shouldn't make such sweeping assumptions about something you really don't know much about.
     
  9. JohnnyEnglish

    JohnnyEnglish Green Belt

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    Why is it an assumption if I think somebody who is getting beaten while being on the ground is not a correct style of fighting as a sport ? There is not much more to understand and to say, I guess you are a MMA fighter, this is why you might feel a bit insulted or offended by my thread. But this is simply what I think about MMA.

    I think MMA would be quiet a good thing, even if they would continue on the ground with Judo,Jiu-Jitsu or how you guys in MMA call it, Grappling! But to punch somebody in the face who is already on the ground, is a NO GO !


    But sure, I know nothing about MMA, coming from a guy who just compared Pankration with MMA :D:D:D

    However, no offense, I am lucky that we are done here, there is not much more to say about it.
     
  10. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Actually no all fights have punching to the face on the ground or standing up so I'm guessing you didn't know that. I'm a karateka ( I also train other styles) who also does MMA, yes, I ref, coach, corner and judge and I still say you don't understand what MMA.

    I take it then when you have to fight in self defence you will be fighting by kick boxing rules then?
     
  11. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    1) There is still debate over whether MMA should be considered a martial art or just a competition format. Arguments for the latter point out that practitioners come form different backgrounds and are still adding techniques and tactics from other arts on a regular basis. Arguments for the former point out that over the last couple of decades practitioners have started to develop a cohesive set of fundamental techniques and training methodologies.

    2) Just about all martial arts derive their techniques from earlier arts, so that's not any sort of argument against MMA being a martial art.

    3) You seem to be under the impression that something is a martial art only if it fits within a certain sort of fight etiquette that you learned growing up. This is far from the case. For the most part, martial arts have their origins in learning how to win fights (within a certain context, depending on the art). Winning can involve a lot of things that you were probably told not to do as a kid. Heck, Araki Ryu has a kata devoted to assassinating someone with a knife while serving them tea!

    4) Speaking as a BJJ practitioner, if you are trying to hurt me and I get you on the ground, I will feel no particular urge to allow you to get back to your feet and attack me again. Likewise, if an attacker puts me on the ground I am under no illusion that they are going to stop attacking me. (Fortunately I am far from helpless in that situation.)

    5) If someone knocks my teeth in or knocks me out, I don't really care if they do it standing up or on the ground. I could understand if you disapproved of full-contact competition in general due to the potential damage the fighters may endure. If you only disapprove of knockouts in one position but not another, that says more about your own particular cultural taboos than the status of MMA as a martial art.

    6) Ground fighting is just one aspect of MMA, but it's one of the most technically complex aspects. If you educate your eye to understand what's going on, you'll get a lot more out of it.
     
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  12. JohnnyEnglish

    JohnnyEnglish Green Belt

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    It's nice that you think I have no clue, but please stop trying to turn around what I was saying !! I was never talking about SELF-DEFENCE, I was talking about MMA as a sport!


    But to answer your question: In a self-defence situation, I also would not punch or kick somebody in the face who is already laying on the ground, even if this person is not knocked out and will stand up in 2-3 seconds, I still would not jump at him and punch him in the face. It's a NO GO, as already mentioned.

    I think this discussion is getting nowhere. Have a nice evening though!
     
  13. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Sadly you cannot start a thread and decide who answers and when, the first you don't understand is that fighters aren't throwing someone on the ground and beating them up, that is not allowed, both fighters strike while on the floor, it is not allowed to strike a fighter on the floor who cannot defend themselves so yes you are wrong. Both fighters have to be able to defend themselves, I have seen a standing fighter KO'd by a kick from a fighter on the floor, I've seen plenty of fighters win from their back as well.
    Please read the rules Rules and Regulations - Unified Rules and Other MMA Regulations
     
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  14. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    You can debate what behaviors you think are proper for a sport if you like, but I thought you started this thread to discuss the status of MMA as a martial art?

    It's nice that you won't hit somebody on the ground even in a self-defense scenario. I'm sure that anybody you might get into a street fight with will appreciate it. One question though - do you really think that if you are attacked and knocked down that your attackers will offer you that same courtesy? If not, do you have a plan to deal with someone attacking you while you are on the ground? If you do have techniques for defending yourself in that situation, how do you train them to the point where you can count on them? I ask, because if you are training for that eventuality, it might look surprisingly like ... MMA.
     
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  15. marques

    marques Master Black Belt

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    MMA is more a combat sport (that combines MA).
    MMA martial arts have other names like Sambo or Gaidojutsu...
    And ground fight [1] or dirty fight [2], is so technical [1] or martial [2] as other ways, if not more.
    But dirty fight is not sport.
     
  16. Andrew Green

    Andrew Green Grandmaster

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    Pretty much all martial arts are a combination of things that came from various sources that predate it. Karate is Kung Fu + Te, Tae Kwon Do is Karate + Tae Kyon. Judo is a blend of Jujitsu styles, etc.

    You seem to be boiling it all down to a personal stigma against hitting someone while they are down. That's just your belief and has no real basis in anything outside of opinion though. In some cultures it is extremely rude to kick a person... so are all arts that have kicking considered non-martial arts as a result? Some deal with empty hand vs weapons... that's certainly not good sportsmanship.

    Have you looked into the origins of that stigma about hitting someone when they are down? It's certainly not grounded in self-defence or military, which is where pretty much all "traditional" arts trace back too. In a "real" situation if you have the opportunity to end it and don't you are taking one big unnecessary risk. Sportsmanship rules like that only apply to sport, and the rules of the sport govern the rules. Strikes on the ground in MMA is something you feel about in the same way a boxer might feel about kicks or using a weapon. Doesn't mean using kicks or weapons is unsportsmanlike in all contexts. I imagine a fencer might think punching your opponent in the face is rather unsportsmanlike, even a standing opponent.
     
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  17. Danny T

    Danny T Senior Master

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    JohnnyEnglish - what is your take on Kickboxing type of competitions vs mma type?
    In every example you showed when the fighter was unable to intelligently defend themselves the fight was stopped and the fight was over. Does this happen in kickboxing type of competitions or is the contest stopped for a moment allowing the fighter to regain their wits even though they may be badly hurt and then allowed to continue to fight and cause more serious damage?
    What are you defining as Martial Art? Do you feel 'all' martial arts follow the same codes and sense of fairness and moralities?
     
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  18. JohnnyEnglish

    JohnnyEnglish Green Belt

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    I know that the attacker would not care about me being on the ground, as I said, it's a real life situation without rules.

    I would probably aim for weapoints like Neck,Solarplexus,Nuts,Mouth to knock the attacker out straight away. If for some reason he would bring me on to the ground, I would do everything to get him n a choke, to knock him out this way. If he get's knocked to the ground, I would not jump on him though, I would wait until he stands up. SURE this looks much different if this person is seriously trying to kill me, in this case I would do everything possible to rescue my life.

    But I don't know what this has to do with MMA ? MMA is a fightsport and not meant to be for self-defense, since you don't learn critical techniques in MMA like you learn for example in Krav-Maga, it is just a simple and dumb brawl with people watching you, that's all.
     
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  19. Hyoho

    Hyoho Black Belt

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    Doesn't that big M at the beginning stand for mixed? I would have thought the last letter 'A' standing for art is even questionable.
     
  20. JohnnyEnglish

    JohnnyEnglish Green Belt

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    I just don't understand how some uncontrolled respectless fighting like MMA can be called an own martial art, + as you already mentioned, MIXED martial arts, there are many different martial arts in it, only because you mix something up, does not mean you create a complete new and own system. Since I can't see much of a system in MMA. SURE, we all know the kicks and punches they use, we also know where they are coming from..and for sure we know the grappling techniques they use from certain martial arts, Jiu-Jitsu,Judo and more. But only because you add some champaign to your coke, doesn't make it champaign, do you know what I mean ?123
     
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