Why does MMA count as an own martial art now ?

Discussion in 'MMA' started by JohnnyEnglish, Aug 2, 2015.

  1. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    4,993
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Yeah. But you see when a person comes up with his made up in a backyard martial art. All those people who are defendants of "if you haven't trainined in it you can't understand it's merits"
    Jump on him like fat kids on cake.
     
  2. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2004
    Messages:
    27,758
    Likes Received:
    1,514
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    That is the crux right there Steve. Everyone will have an idea, some exposure and a small bit of experience if they get all their information from a forum. That is it. It is not the same as going and training with someone or in a system to have a feel for what they do. Forums are incredibly useful to help broaden your horizon but like anything in life you probably need some first hand experience before you right some thing off as ineffective or useless. You can of course rely on other people's opinions and their impression based of their experience. However, that is "their experience" not yours and certainly not everyone else's!
     
  3. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2008
    Messages:
    17,788
    Likes Received:
    3,588
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Location:
    Covington, WA
    just to make sure I understand, are you saying that you can't draw a conclusion or have an opinion about something unless you have first hand experience? If so, I completely disagree.
     
  4. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2004
    Messages:
    27,758
    Likes Received:
    1,514
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    No, just that an opinion could be misinformed and not at all accurate. Then again it could be!

    By the way lots of people have opinions and some times they are not worth anything. Some times thought they are very accurate!

    This all started on this particular thread because I said broaden your horizons and train! I stand by that, do not be one dimensional and train in one system and think that it is the best. Instead, experience training with lots of people and in lots of systems. Experience varied training methods and find what works for you!

    Now, as you know I have limited time here Steve and well frankly, it feels like you are badgering me. My opinion is clearly stated so I think you can figure out that I stand for cross training and broadening your horizon!
     
  5. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    5,770
    Likes Received:
    4,275
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Lexington, KY
    You can certainly have an opinion or draw some conclusions on a topic based just on second-hand sources. It's just a good idea to keep those conclusions tentative and express those opinions with humility, since you may be missing important perspective which you might have gained through more first hand experience. I'd say this is particularly true in the martial arts since, as you pointed out earlier, there is a difference between academic knowledge and physical experience of an art.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2013
    Messages:
    5,928
    Likes Received:
    868
    Trophy Points:
    263
    It's worth mentioning that I do have experience training with Ninjutsu. I took a few introductory lessons, and I've trained with a few black belts (albeit that's not saying much since they pass black belts out like candy).

    All of this started because I disagreed with the notion that Ninjutsu would be a good art to cross train for a Bjj practitioner. I never said that Ninjutsu was "bad", I was simply saying that Ninjutsu itself tends to not be compatible with the goals of your typical Bjj practitioner. That video of Hatsumi fumbling through ground fighting should be proof enough of what I'm talking about.
     
  7. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    25,282
    Likes Received:
    7,393
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    I agree heartily with the sentiment, Brian. Some of my best learning has come from attending other schools, going to seminars, etc. Heck, some of my most important learning about my primary art happened during seminars and training in other arts/styles. Sometimes an instructor simply tells me something I should have heard from my primary instructor years ago. Usually, I realize he had been saying it for years, and I just hadn't understood him. It sounds absolutist, but I'd be hard pressed not to say that a lack of cross-training is a lack of complete training. My experience shouts that cross-training is almost necessary for complete learning.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    25,282
    Likes Received:
    7,393
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    I can't speak to anything else in this post, Hanzou, since I have zero experience in or with Ninjutsu, but I don't see the flawed groundwork as an indicator that Ninjutsu is incompatible with the learning goals of a BJJ practitioner. It make it likely that Ninjutsu is more useful if paired with BJJ (or some other ground-fighting-intensive art), but since a good cross-training option for BJJ would be standing work (in fact, that's what most of the BJJ folks I know cross-train for), we'd have to see what the Ninjutsu standing work looks like to make that judgement.
     
  9. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2013
    Messages:
    5,928
    Likes Received:
    868
    Trophy Points:
    263
    A Ninjutsu practitioner moving to Bjj is a different matter entirely. I would actually recommend Bjj to a Ninjutsu practitioner. It would be quite beneficial to them on multiple levels. The problem with the reverse is that a Bjj exponent is coming from a background where everything is tested and re-tested, and discarded if viewed as ineffective. Imagine a high ranking Bjj exponent cross-training in Ninjutsu and seeing that ground fighting demonstration from Hatsumi. Do you think they could take their training seriously after seeing that utter nonsense? Further, stuff like that throws the entire curriculum into question, because if Hatsumi is willing to compromise in that what else is he (and his students) willing to compromise on?
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2016
  10. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    25,282
    Likes Received:
    7,393
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    That extrapolation makes sense, but I have seen really poor groundwork in schools where their standing work was reasonably good. The problem there was that the instructor was working out the groundwork on his own (it hadn't been included in his training), while he'd received good training in standing work. If we extrapolate that the rest of the training will be as bad as the groundwork, then I'm not sure it's good cross-training for anyone. I was responding to your statement that it wasn't good for BJJ cross-training, and there's nothing that makes it particularly bad for a BJJ practitioner, moreso than for anyone else. If the standing work is weak, it's not good for anyone (including the BJJ practitioners) and if it's decent, then it might be particularly good for a BJJ practitioner who wants to explore standing work.
     
  11. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2013
    Messages:
    5,928
    Likes Received:
    868
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Honestly if you're looking for stand up to compliment your Bjj, Muay Thai, MMA standup, and/or standard Boxing are better options.
     
  12. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    25,282
    Likes Received:
    7,393
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    Muay Thai and boxing are pretty much just strikes. "MMA standup" will vary depending upon who is coaching it. It really depends what the person is looking for in their cross-training. If they only want to add striking, then yes, those are good choices (so would be some of the TMA that focus on striking). If they want to add standing grappling (which most of the BJJ schools I've seen don't do much of - it's why they excel on the ground), they'll have to look broader for an answer. Of course, that doesn't mean they can't also get some striking from MT or boxing.
     
  13. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2013
    Messages:
    5,928
    Likes Received:
    868
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Actually, traditional Bjj has a very wide range of standing takedowns and throws. The non-wrestling takedowns and throws mainly come from the clinch. All you need from that point is a good striking style (bonus if it has good clinching techniques) to balance things out since your grappling is taken care of by Bjj.
     
  14. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    25,282
    Likes Received:
    7,393
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    Hmm...looks like more omissions by some schools I've visited, or I just happen to show up on days when they aren't doing standing work. (Or are these the secret techniques they're hiding from us non-BJJ'ers?:D)

    I can't remember if you have Judo background - is the BJJ standing work likely similar to what I remember from my Judo days? (My students still don't like it when I decide to "go Judo" with a technique - I throw harder then.)
     
  15. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2013
    Messages:
    5,928
    Likes Received:
    868
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Check out the Gracies during their early years of fighting, especially Royce in the first UFCs and Rickson in Pride, those are prime examples of old school Bjj takedowns. They never seemed to have much issue taking people down or throwing them to the ground. There's also a few old Gracie fundamental vids on Youtube where they specifically cover throws and takedowns.

    Personally I don't think it looks much like Judo at all.123
     

Share This Page

Search tags for this page
roman spor tattoos
,

spqr gladiator

,
why does uchi mata work