Why do we care???

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by Manny, Sep 29, 2011.

  1. Manny

    Manny Senior Master

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    Why do we care and get so upset when a child gets his/her black belt? We know that sucha chievement is not so true, we know nowdays it's not so dificult to get a black belt or medium dan rank (2nd or 3rd Dan) for a kid below 16. The parents send their children very early to dojangs (some as young as 3 or 4 years old) because: a) they can not take of the boy/girls because of work, taking the dojang as a babysiter place, b) because parents waht the kids for a workout instead to be in the couch playing ex-box/nintendo or watchimng t.v. and the sambonim trying to keep the children motivated promoted them every two or three months.

    I must admited it, sometimes I get mad for this but then I do a retroinspection and tell to myself, Manny those are kids who did not know the true meaning and comitement of earning a blck belt or dan, you know how dificult and painful it is to achieve those grades, so walk tall and no matter the classmate of my daughter is a 14 years old 3rd dan and you are only a humble second dan you have expertise and know the true value of you own grade, that kid maybe in a couple of years will be out of tkd and never come back, in the other hand you Manny, eat, drink breath TKD and Martial Arts, so you Manny are the man.

    Manny
     
  2. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    People Love Complaining.

    As I once said, were all Discussing how Right we are.
    And SteveBJJ accused Me of putting down our Right to discuss these things :D

    We all know they dont deserve it.
    We all know they arent nearly as Proficient as an older BB.
    We are all Humans, and Humans like Complaining :)

    Ill Iterate what ive said before.
    I agree with Junior Blackbelting.
    That way, by the time the Student is actually old enough to go for 1st Dan, theyll have refined their Knowledge over the Years, until its more Applicable.
     
  3. sopraisso

    sopraisso Blue Belt

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    Hi Manny and Cyriacus!
    You don't know me yet (hey, check out my latest post here in tkd forum!), but I know you! And respect you!
    Haha. Well, as for the started thread, I agree with both of you, but anyway... we always have something else to say, right (although sometimes the same everyone said)?
    I also got mad at the black belt child. I think well... Besides that you two think, I also believe that child black belts wouldn't be quite a great deal to the ideal many of us (maybe most) have for taekwondo image and nature. I'd just feel quite ashamed if... say... I told a workmate of mine I practised taekwondo and right after that the person read the news about the bb kid. I think you know what I mean. But, anyway... the milk's already been spilled, such a long time ago, and all in all taekwondo changed a lot from its roots (not to say such roots are all good or not), and once this martial art is today essencially business stuff to many people, we just have to deal with it.
    Greetings from Brazil!
     
  4. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    Yes, the Public Image can be an issue.

    But then, the Public Image of all Martial Arts isnt exactly great. It tends to be looked at as fun, or sporting. Be it Karate, Muay Thai, Tae Kwon-Do, or whathaveyou.
    That, or its older People who think that MA ch... Actually, id be a Hypocrite if I finished that Sentence :D

    But yeah, you Survive.
     
  5. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Master of Arts

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    I never get mad at a child "black" belt (I normally see them wearing poom half-red/half-black belts) providing they are worth their grade. If they aren't worth it, then I feel mad at the instructor for promoting them rather than them.

    But, and this is the big but, I feel the same about adult black belts. If they aren't worth their grade then I feel mad that they were promoted.

    This is about worthiness rather than age for me.

    I do also understand that people are different and you get some excellent black belts and some average ones (and I don't think people should be denied rank because they aren't elite level). But if you get someone who has recently passed a promotion and doesn't know the material or makes constant mistakes then they shouldn't have been promoted.
     
  6. StudentCarl

    StudentCarl 3rd Black Belt

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    I agree. People test when they're told to, so it really comes down to the instructor deciding when someone should test for black. Once someone has a black belt as an adult, I expect them to take responsibility for their own improvement too. A sloppy adult black belt is more a reflection of the instructor, but definitely reflects on the adult as well.
     
  7. texas_rebel_1980

    texas_rebel_1980 Yellow Belt

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    i am new to tkd and martial arts, but i do see these young kids running around the store with their mother's still wearing their dobak after class and sporting their black belts....it makes me wonder what can they possibly know about being a black belt, much less how much do they actually know as far as techniques.

    the dojang my family and i go to will NOT allow anyone under 18 to test for BB, or 17 if the individual is highly motivated, very mature and is capable of teaching and demonstrates the tenets of tkd. the instructor made this very clear when we signed up and said "unless your child is the second coming of Bruce Lee, they will NOT test for black belt before 18" my children started this year at ages 9,7,5,4. 9 years til my oldest can test and 14 years until my youngest can test, assuming they don't quit. thats a long time, but they will have a quality MA education when that day comes, I feel.
     
  8. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    To me, if a child (< 16) can actually earn a BB while keeping high standards, it indicates to me that the system studied is a watered down system. Punchy, kicky stuff, probably devoid of locks, throws, and close quarter combat techniques. Probably little to no attention on things like qi development or internal strength or centering or even body conditioning. This stuff has its place, but it's not my area of interest these days.
     
  9. NSRTKD

    NSRTKD Green Belt

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    Thanks for mentioning the qi development... and internal strength and centering. it is very missed in most schools with kids, though I think a big part of that is to dispelled disagreements about religion with parents who are closed minded and make assumptions.My 5 year old is learning with me about energies and quieting the mind. She is largely benefiting from breathing techniques and "calming her own energy" when reacting to stress or frustration, because she has historically been very explosive. It's helping, slowly. :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2011
  10. ATC

    ATC Senior Master

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    I think it all depends. The only thing children don't have that adult have is size and strength. there are kids that go to or graduate from college. This shows that the mind is capable of understanding concepts and obtaining great knowledge even at an early age.

    Both my kids skipped grades and still maintain an "A" average in all subjects. Both my kids are black belts and help assist others. They are 13 and12 years old. I know that both are capable of adapting and understand the concepts taught to them as they have both recently demonstrated that to my surprise. My son has a broken arm and in our SD classes has come up with some very interesting SD techniques on his own, using just one arm. His knife SD surprised me as he was able to disarm and take down his partner that also was surprised.

    My daughter has a broken foot (surgery to repair a previous break that healed wrong) and she too surprised me with her hand techniques to compensate for notbeing able to use any kicks and no footwork.

    Both have come up with self-creative forms that put many of the adults to shame, including myself.

    The Martial Arts is more about the mind in many aspects but most only focus on the physical. Many adults only see that they are bigger, stronger, and faster than the kids but that will last only so long as every one of those kids will grow up.

    Knowledge is the most powerful and that, to me, is what is most important. No, not all kids that have black belts deserver them but just as many adults that have black belts don't deserve them either. In my opinion that is.
     
  11. Balrog

    Balrog Master of Arts

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    My issue with giving rank to munchkins is this: martial arts is not just punching and kicking and running around looking terminally cute in your pj's, nor is it about repeating stuff back like a parrot. It's about understanding the life skills that we teach and the effects of the physical skills that we teach. And in the normal development of children, reason does not start kicking in until about age 6. At that point, we see a great spurt in growth (more mental than physical): tremendous increase in vocabulary and the development of rational thinking (step A leads to step B leads to step C, etc.).

    How can we, as instructor, justify giving rank to children who have no frickin' clue whatsoever about the responsibilities associated with that rank? This is why I no longer take kids under 7 in my school, and if I ever do start another Tiny Tiger class, they will stay at White Belt until they graduate out into the regular classes at age 7. At least by doing that, I am ensuring that I have at least a rudimentary sense of reason to work with and I can definitely help to shape that beginning structure into someone who thinks.
     
  12. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    Yes, it does. This is not a knock on you or your kids, as I know they are high achievers in what they do. I'm fairly sure however that we teach and practice entirely different things even though we can nominally give them the same label of tae kwon do or karate or whatever. <Tipping my hat> No disrespect intended at all.
     
  13. bluewaveschool

    bluewaveschool 2nd Black Belt

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    I used to care, then I decided that what goes on at other schools isn't worth my time.
     
  14. Poomsaeguy

    Poomsaeguy Yellow Belt

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    Great statement!

    Funny timing on this, I just added poom belt into our schools rank. I like the fact that it makes children understand that they are not on the same level as adults. Not just in TKD but in life! Kids these days are so use to getting things first and fast..... they don't want to wait for anything! I'm sure that most of them could drive a car ( video games are a great teacher) but they still don't get to drivers license until the are 16 yrs old.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2011
  15. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    That's a good attitude until what happens at other places affects you. You could have youngsters or others leaving to go to them because they can get their rank quicker, which while on the face of it may be no great loss if they aren't willing to work but if you have to pay rent etc it could be. It could mean a stampede of youngsters leaving because parents talk to each other and even your good students can leave, parents can be very fickle I've found. The places that grade children early are often the commercial places who are very good at advertising and can put you in the shadows, depending on your expenses this could mean you have to close. If you can afford to teach just a few students you probably don't have to worry but for many who teach out of love but still have to pay rent and utilities it can be the death of their school/club.
     
  16. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    Harsher Training = Less Youngsters and a strangely Increased Number of Adults = I know of about Five Places Ive been to that Function that way :)

    In all Seriousness though, if Your Dojang is Reliant on its Younger Students, Youre probably going to be Teaching it in a way suited to them, or in a 50/50 Divide anyway.
     
  17. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    I'm not sure that works out because there's a great many adults who also want their black belts in under two years and frankly not have to work too hard for it. It's fine to say well these aren't students one wants anyway but they may be working well with you until they start hearing, reading and seeing the ads etc coming out of these other schools which are businesses and can sell their schools well. For most non martial artists and beginners the attainment of a black belt is the epitome of martial arts training and these places really sell that well.
     
  18. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    Im mostly relating that out of all the Dojangs and Dojos ive seen, the Harsher ones have more Students. Which to Me is a bit strange, since Id expect the "Family Friendly" ones to be the ones with the Majority.

    As for Selling Black Belts, that can be Accurate.
    On the other hand, some People watched the Original Karate Kid in the 80s and had their Interest Perked toward the Art, not the Belts.
    Theres many aspects to this, since alot of People see a Black Belt as being a Sign of Accomplishment.
    Therefore, some People will want it quickly, while others will want to Deserve it.
     
  19. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    I think though that these places that give children black belts do impact on all of us whether in a big way or just having people looking at us askance because we take take longer to grade and won't give children black belts. We can't ignore these places as much as we'd like to.
     
  20. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    Yes well, thats just it. Whatre You going to do, try and make it a Crime? (Dont take that the wrong way)123
     

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