Why do we care???
- Thread starter Manny
- Start date
Eh?
I mean, You cant Illegalise what Theyre doing, and Theyre going to keep doing it because it Works.
I don't think anyone has proposed making it illegal, it's a discussion on 'why do we care'. I'm just saying we care because sometimes it impacts on our clubs/schools and students.
I never said They did - Im saying that no matter how much We care, We really cant do anything about it.
We either Preserve Our Art, or We Degenerate it into a Super Happy Fun Belt Brigade.
I feel sorry for the kids who get these belts.
We have a kid (maybe 12) who got a 1st Dan from some dojang in Chicago. He says it was a Kukkiwon school, but his certificate is obviously an in house rank, since he doesn't even know what a poom rank is. He doesn't know the Taegeuk or Palgwe or Chang Hon forms, nor any of the Yudanja forms. He doesn't actually remember any of the forms he was taught. He can't tie his belt properly. His techniques are sloppy and weak. When he spars kids his age (but much lower ranked) he gets hit once, cries, and does not continue.
It's not his fault, really. He was told that he had earned his rank. How do you take it away from him? I feel sorry for him, but I think the majority of the blame lies squarely on the head of his former instructor.
We have a kid (maybe 12) who got a 1st Dan from some dojang in Chicago. He says it was a Kukkiwon school, but his certificate is obviously an in house rank, since he doesn't even know what a poom rank is. He doesn't know the Taegeuk or Palgwe or Chang Hon forms, nor any of the Yudanja forms. He doesn't actually remember any of the forms he was taught. He can't tie his belt properly. His techniques are sloppy and weak. When he spars kids his age (but much lower ranked) he gets hit once, cries, and does not continue.
It's not his fault, really. He was told that he had earned his rank. How do you take it away from him? I feel sorry for him, but I think the majority of the blame lies squarely on the head of his former instructor.
bluewaveschool
2nd Black Belt
I suppose I have the advantage on the not caring part as I don't get paid (I do get a comp membership) to teach. If the kids are members of the Y, the class is free. We attract a decent size class just off that, parents not wanting to pay extra $70+ (the going rate in these parts) a month. We've had students come in from other schools that weren't any good, and I did feel bad for them, and angry with whoever taught them. It's not something I can control, so now I just worry about my students, and how they would represent me if at another school.
I don't get upset when a child gets a black belt. And 2nd or 3rd Dan is not a medium dan rank; they are low dan ranks.
andyjeffries
Senior Master
I think this is definitely one of those perspective issues. When you're going for 1st/2nd/3rd it's drummed in to you how many people drop out before that dan grade. By the time you're promoting for 3rd Dan you're really feeling like you've achieved something (maybe because most people take longer to promote than the mandatory time).
It's only when you get past them and think to what it was like (and how quickly you could get there if you trained hard and graded as soon as possible*) that you feel they are low dan ranks.
FWIW I agree with you now I'm past them, but they're drummed in to you as definitely not low dan (1st Dan is seen by many as the revered black belt, rather than 1st on a scale of 9).
* in Korea I'd imagine 3rd Dan is 4 years from start to finish, given they get to 1st in a year
Cheers,
Andy
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
Good point. Its all relative. In our club it would take 8-9 years continuous training minimum to achieve 3rd dan, whereas , like you said, in some schools 3rd dan could be achieved in half that time. They obviously have different meanings at different clubs and a different level of competency.
Its like 1st Dan. For some places, 1st Dan = Proficiency. To others, 1st Dan = Foundation. To others, 1st Dan = Progress. To others still, 1st Dan = Experience. And so forth.
Even if it took 15 or 20 years to get to 3rd Dan, 3rd Dan would still be considered a low dan.
FNA Manny. You are the man.-Rob
The idea of a child earning a black belt does not make me angry. The idea that the child's parents were bilked by the school owner does, however.
I'm not going to furnish a lengthy explanation on whether or not kids should wear black belts; as a general rule, I think it better that they don't, but I accept that not every school owner or instructor agrees. I've seen some kids earn their belt who look like they practice diligently and who definitely didn't mail it in at their test. I've seen other kids get passed along belt after belt who really have not gotten a good grasp on the material of previous levels. But the check cleared, so the school owner promotes them.
The first scenario is one where the instruction and the effort on the part of the student are of a high quality. The second scenario is a school owner selling belts. If the second scenario weren't so darned common, I suspect that this subject would not have as much traction as it does.
You have really achieved something. Just because second and third are low dan rankings doesn't change that. Given that from third to fourth dan is another three years generally, four at some schools, it seems like a high dan; three to four years is generally half to three quarters of the time you have been training. I'm not sure how many parents (since we're talking kids here) really think too much past fourth dan/pum. They just know that its another three to four years and so it must be high. That makes second and third medium in their mind.
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