Why do Japanese arts use the Japanese language?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by skribs, Oct 7, 2019.

  1. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Wow........ so...... you equate the entire culture to only the negative aspects? Dude........

    I understand... you don't get it. Fine. But how about you acknowledge that fact as well, so we don't go round in circles, where we explain reality to you, and your limited views see you attempt to insult people with each post?

    Oh, and as far as the German example.... have you looked into HEMA? Kunst de Fechtens? Names like Liechtenhauer? Joachim Meyer? Hans Talhoffer? Plenty of German terminology used there....
     
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  2. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    If you're only going to speak using language from a culture with no history of brutality and atrocities, then you're going to have very few options. Maybe Esperanto?
     
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  3. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    if your insulted by facts theres not much I can do about it, but to be fair that's seems to be the modern philosophy to air brush out inconvienent fact that dont suit your world view, I'm not particularly proud of my own countries culture, but it's as nothing compared with some other countries.

    so a straight question can you take the positives from japanese culture and off set those against say the " rape of nanking" and say on the whole it's good or benifical to the world, allowing that it's the very same " positives " which were being applied in nanking ?? or are you just cheery picking some aspect you agree with whilst ignoring the less palatable ones .
     
  4. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    we are talking aboutspeaking a language for the main reason of promotion that culture, which is the example given,rather that, choosing one to speak because you wish to converse with native speakers, which is completely different .

    let's say someone decided to speak english because they were great fans of british colonial policy, whilst dressing up in a red coat and practising suppressing native uprisings, I'd consider that some what iffy as well, just as I do those folk that dress up as nazis under the pretence its a historic reenactment,
     
  5. geezer

    geezer Grandmaster

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    Jobo, you've pushed this so far over the top that you are sounding absurd. An appreciation for traditional Japanese martial arts and a preference for using the Japanese terminology does not in any way indicate a support of the Japanese Imperialism of the WWII era. But if you want to condemn a whole culture for the excesses of that period, fine. If you don't want to use Japanese terms, great. Don't drive their cars, and don't use their products.

    Now let's go a step further, and eliminate all Latin words from English 'cause them bad ol' Romans killled Jesus. Er ...um...Hold on ...WTF!. Oh sh--! Now I'm clean outta words. :p
     
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  6. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    I had a cup of tea this morning. One of those tea bags with the little sayings on the tag. It said....

    Never argue with someone who was baptised in hot dog water.

    So I think I'll just have me some popcorn now.

    MonkeyPopcorn.jpg
     
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  7. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Good information - thanks for sharing, Chris.

    I will argue that the Japanese terms do not carry any more information than the English equivalent terms (what you've referred to as English descriptions) to those of us who speak no actual Japanese. Seoi nage is just a term for a group of throws, to me. In fact, when you gave the breakdown, I suspected some of the throws I know fall into that group, though I'd never heard that term used for them before. So, for those of you who know the language (or at least enough to understand the information contained in the terms), your point is valid. For the rest of us, they're just the names of the techniques.
     
  8. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Chris, it's not often I get to drop a "funny" rating on your posts, but the last paragraph made me chuckle. Thanks.
     
  9. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Wherein, again, you choose a single point in history and claim that's what's being supported. Weak, at best.
     
  10. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    But what if they say "Wakarimasen" ( わかりません ) :D

    Sorry, could not resist...

    Nice to see you're still around MT Chris
     
  11. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    well pick another point of Japanese pre ww2 history and we can discuss that, how far back do you want to go ?
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2019
  12. geezer

    geezer Grandmaster

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    Well, if I were Black or Native American I could pretty much say the same about US history. You know most earlier times in history would have been dreary at best for any of us who weren't very rich. What's your point?" 'Cause you are beginning to come off as ...prejudiced.

    I mean, 'cmon, Jobo. It's not like we're talking about the French for Godsake! :D

    (Just kidding BTW. Part of my ancestry is French, along with a lot of English, Scottish, German and a bit of Irish, i.e. I'm an American Mutt).
     
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  13. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    to be honest I wouldn't recommend american culture for any time in the last two hundred years. it was a bit better when we and the french were running it. The british were generally kinder to their colonial subjects than there at home subjects and canada turned out all right

    I was amazed to learn that during the 1930s, the Americans were making semi serious plans to invade canada and the british in response were making semi serious plans to to blockade the eastern sea board and shell new york etal,, it could have all been very different

    But that not the point, The point is that the guy wanted to PROMOTE japanese culture and i'm asking for anything good about it to promote, if your making the point they were all bad, which they were to varying degrees, that still doesn't make japanese culture worthy of promotion, it just means you should not be promoting any of them
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2019
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  14. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    In US, if your Karate school requires you to knee down in front of a Japanese flag (on the wall) and touch your head on the floor, will you do it?

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  15. _Simon_

    _Simon_ Senior Master

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    YES! SIGN ME UP!
     
  16. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Okay, if I'm going to be back, might as well be back....

    I'm not insulted by facts, I am, however, insulted by your attitude and insinuations.

    You're equating "culture" with "historical events".... they are not the same thing. Unless you want to tell me that the "American culture" is one of dropping atomic weapons? Of assassinating presidents? These are events... but are not necessarily typical or even representative of the culture... in fact, they can be seen as notable as they are actually antithetic to the culture of the US.

    No, we are talking about predominantly using native Japanese terminology in Japanese arts in part for assisting in spreading Japanese culture... I would not say it's the main reason, but is a large one. The ease of communication with Japanese teachers is another part of it, as well as ease of accurate communication between different practitioners of different languages and nationalities.

    You do realise that practicing a Japanese martial art, and using Japanese terminology is not really the same as re-enacting WWII atrocities? Or are you seriously believing that your reducto ad absurdum argument has any kind of merit at all?

    Once again, historical events are not the same as a national culture... but, if you insist, let's look at the collected works of Hokusai... perhaps Sen no Rikyu and his development of the tea ceremony? How about the innovations regarding Japanese clothing and dying... or carpentry and architecture... maybe you'd prefer we start to look at Kabuki or Noh theatre... we could look at the concepts of etiquette, often derived from Ogasawara teachings or similar... concepts of duty and propriety... honourable action in thought, word, and deed... a look to the benefit fo the collective rather than the individual... I can go on, if you'd like... of course, if you'd rather just focus on negative events at the expense of understanding that actual culture or discussion, then there's no point you even being in this discussion.

    None of this is "culture"....

    Really? You might want to go back are re-read, then... "The guy" said nothing about his wanting to promote Japanese culture... instead, he gave an explanation as tot he mindset of Japanese martial arts, coming from the Japanese government, and Japanese martial art instructors, which leads to an insistence on using Japanese terminology (in part). And you do get that Japanese culture is quite a patriotic one, yes? There is a real belief in the value of their culture, and a want to promote it, and it's unique aspects, both in Japan and to the world...

    This is really no different than anyone being proud of their culture and wanting to promote it... which is both natural and common... it's just that the Japanese formalised that desire to a greater degree than most.

    Hey Gerry, thanks.

    I can understand that attitude... of course, the argument I would make there is... learn. An unspoken rule for Japanese arts is to endeavour to understand as many aspects, if not all, as possible... including the language used, and the insights the names and terminology used give. To a great degree, an argument can be made that, if you're not going into those details, then you're not really engaging in the study of a Japanese martial art... instead, it's just a series of actions... if that's all you want, cool. But it's quite a bit removed from the real study (in this approach).

    But.... "I don't understand".... ha!

    Neither could I...

    Good to see you too.

    What?

    Again, you do what the school dictates. If you don't agree, for whatever reason.... well, you know where the door is. No one forces you to be a part of the school....[/QUOTE]
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
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  17. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    [/QUOTE]
    no there not the same thing, but they are heavily intertwined, culture dictates historic events and events change culture.

    on your other point, yes american culture and the dropping of atomic bomb on helpless civilians are indeed closely linked. there's very few nations on earth, certainly '' civilised ''ones that would have done that. therefore if we consider a culture that has genocide in its recent history and how shall we put it,, ? civil rights issues, then you can see that the culture is largely responsible for not caring anything about the fate of a 100,000 or so people. It was certainly culturally acceptable or they wouldn't have done it, cant see many people shedding tears in the victory in the pacific celebrations
     
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  18. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Actions and events can be extensions of cultural aspects, but are rarely, if ever, even close to the entirety of the culture itself. I would also suggest that the dropping of the atomic weapons on Japan was not so much symbolic or representative of the American culture... additionally, nothing exists in a vacuum... so you'd need to identify what aspect of the culture you're talking about. Which is why the events are not the same as the culture.... and the promotion of a culture is not promotion of particular events.

    In other words, dude, you are seriously off base in all of this.
     
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  19. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    these are self proving statements. no other country has done that, so we honestly need to ask what's ''special'' about american culture, not only that they would do it, but celebrate doing it. .

    a very quick review of culturally acceptable historic events in america comparatively recent past, from the treatment of native Americans to leaving people to starve in the dust bowl, shows it not to be at out of character with the American dream
     
  20. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    "Socially accepted" and "culturally acceptable" are not the same thing.... and I would argue that very few Americans celebrate the usage of atomic weaponry. So no, your comments fail in the face of actually understanding these terms. As far as why the Americans are the only ones who have used nuclear weapons, well.... at the time, they were the only ones who had developed them to the point that they were feasible... and a strong argument could be made that the Japanese were not going to surrender unless absolutely forced into it by an overwhelming reason, and, in that sense, the usage and deployment potentially brought the Pacific War to an end much sooner than would have happened, leading to many lives being saved at the expense of the victims of the Enola Gay and Bockscar's payloads. It's not celebrated as a positive action in many circles, though, and the decision would have been deeply agonising for Truman and all involved.

    But seriously, this is all completely besides the point of this thread... you've gone off on a tangent that is ludicrous, and simply shows how little you grasp the concepts here. I recommend you stop embarrassing yourself, and leave it at this.123
     

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