Karate history

Discussion in 'Karate' started by ahmad abou taleb, Jun 15, 2017.

  1. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Master of Arts

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    ok that is a kindergarten level description. can you try again?
    ok.. adding to Kempodisciples comment...your definition then, boxing has grappling.
    would you then say that if i grab someones shoulder or behind the head while punching them repeatedly in the face that because i have seized them, that i am doing grappling?
    if that is your definition then yes everything has grappling. but that definition would be your own and not common nomenclature.


    the error in your thesis is that you are making the presumption that martial arts are an actual "thing". we do often talk like this but it is an error in ones critical thinking. martial arts or karate in this case, is not an inanimate object that can contain something. karate is a practice that allows the practitioner to acquire a set of skills. in actuality it is the skills that is the thing not the art.
    your presumption that karate can contain something is in direct contradiction to the idea of evolution within the practice. the Chinese had in ancient times Jiao Di.

    The earliest Chinese term for wrestling, "jǐao dǐ" (角抵, horn butting), refers to an ancient sport in which contestants wore horned headgear with which they attempted to butt their opponents.
    Shuai jiao - Wikipedia


    it can be assumed that other arts that arrived after this also were influenced by Jiao Di and may have possibly been derived from it. but over time as one style gave way to the next, if these techniques were not taught and practiced then it cannot be said that they also are Jiao Di. they have their own name and their own identity.
    as an example... it is thought that the nunchucku was derived from a horses bridle. i would challenge anyone to bridle a hose with a nunchuck.

    also by your premise.. if i were to sit in a race car and drive it around town going grocery shopping that i am the equivalent of a race car driver. this is of course ridiculous. just by driving to the store does not give me the skills to be a race car driver.
    the problem comes back to the fact that karate is a practice. if you practice punching you are a puncher. without actively engaging in grappling you are not learning grappling thus not acquiring the skills of a grappler.
    now the basis of your idea (all though most likely taken from writings of Ian Abernathy) is kata. What do the movements mean? Is there bunkai to suggest that the kata included grappling. this brings me back to the definition of grappling. without defining the word we can not come to any agreement on the subject.

    we would also have to take into consideration the diversity of karate and its genealogy of lineage. where many styles of Okinawan karate have a lineage to Sokon Matsumura other styles are relatively new like Goju-ryu and some are uninfluenced by older Okinawan culture and practices like Uechi-Ryu. then there is Japanese karate which has its own spider web of genealogy.
    the genealogy is important if you are going to dissect kata. what Abernathy is trying to do is reverse engineer meaning into the kata. while it can be a useful learning tool it is a mistake to make any conclusion on the history of kata and how the practitioners of the past understood the kata. the reason being that kata changes over time. any one kata has several versions to it and due to our current limited historical knowledge and documentation of the kata we cannot know how the kata was actually done in the past. just one generation of teacher to student has a significant impact on the performance of kata.

    ok back to the thesis of grappling in kata. it may be true that Matsumura had studied Tegumi (i dont know if he did but lets assume for the sake of the conversation) and being a Pechin and official of the kingdom could be assumed he knew grappling. but we do not know where his kata originated. some suggest the kata were of his own creation others say they were past to him intact from the Chinese that he encountered. if we take the idea of the kata being of his own creation then he may have included some grappling into his kata but we do know for a fact that for the past few generations grappling bunkai was not shown. we can then assume that either it was not present or that the understanding was lost. if it was lost ,we can then conclude that the kata would have changed over time to coincide with the understanding of the practitioner. thus present day kata would not include grappling.
    on the other side of the problem if the forms were of Chinese origin then we are going further into the abyss of the unknown. all i can say on this is that the Chinese to my knowledge called this art a form of boxing not Jiao Di.
    many southern kung fu styles had a heavy influence of Qin na, seizing and controlling. while it may not be prominent in todays Uechi ryu doing a genealogy comparative study you can identify the common actions and see the Qin na. however seizing a wrist and/or elbow is a different classification than grappling. Shuai Jiao (jacket wrestling) is predominantly a throwing art like judo. these actions are not practiced in Uechi ryu.
    as to weapons, it is known that Kanbun Uechi did learn weapons in China as well as healing herbs. but these weapons were not taught to the next generation. Thus Uechi ryu as a style of karate does not include weapons or herbal medicine.
    i would also make that same assumption about Goju ryu. Kanryo Higaonna went to China and if he did learn weapons he did not teach it to Miyagi or anyone else. so no weapons there either.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2017
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  2. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    The style of karate I do has 'grappling' in because the founder specifically put it there. The fact he had to put it in means it's fairly certain it wasn't intrinsically part of 'traditional' karate before.
     
  3. MI_martialist

    MI_martialist Purple Belt

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    I should stop trying to have these conversations. Your thinking is so fragmented, convoluted, and tainted by styles that it is almost impossible to even see where you are coming from.

    How many of your "styles" (karate, or whatever) has an inner forearm inside to outside movement type of "block"?
    [​IMG]

    Again, some version of, some semblance of...using the inner forearm to "block".
     
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  4. MI_martialist

    MI_martialist Purple Belt

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    or could it be that the "founder" of your "style" understand that it was there and simply instructed it?


     
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  5. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    As you have founder in inverted commas I assume you don't think he existed. The same as you have style in inverted commas.
    Rather than take the history from any one Wado site I've taken it from Wiki.
    Hironori Ōtsuka - Wikipedia

    "On April 1, 1934, Ōtsuka opened his own karate school the Dai Nippon Karate Shinko Kai at 63 Banchi Suehiro-Cho, Kanda, Tokyo.[1] He blended Shotokan karate with his knowledge of Shindō Yōshin-ryū jujutsu to form Wadō-ryū karate"
     
  6. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Who is this aimed at? I'd suggest that you have not so much understanding as you think you have. Styles like Judo and boxing don't have those blocks, why would they? And if they were to have, what's that got to do with anything?
     
  7. MI_martialist

    MI_martialist Purple Belt

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    I used the quotation marks because there are no "founders". There are people who studied martial activities, movements, and took their preferences and opened schools that were stylized because there were preferences.

     
  8. MI_martialist

    MI_martialist Purple Belt

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    Again...all this does is show a lack of basic understanding. I can communicate all I want but if you are unable to think basic enough...what I showed is not a block...it is a position that the body finds itself in...is there a "style" that never sees anyone ever in that position?

    Call it what you want, I really do not care. Look at the "blocking" arm...does that exist in every "style"? Does that position, not the movement to get you there, etc., but simply the position...does it exist?

     
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  9. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    That makes them founders of the schools. My martial arts school is Wado Ryu hence we have a founder. My instructor was a student of one of the founder's students.
     
  10. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    You're right of course, it does show a basic lack of understanding...on your part. What you are saying has nothing to do with the OP. In martial arts one shouldn't find your body in a position, one puts the body in the position it needs to be in, there's no randomness which is actually symptomatic of your theories.
     
  11. MI_martialist

    MI_martialist Purple Belt

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    The person who opened the school, yes...but you first made reference to a founder of a style.

    Let us be consistent.

     
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  12. MI_martialist

    MI_martialist Purple Belt

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    As you wish...continue on in your stylistic darkness...if course you find yourself in a position...I did not say it is random...so, back to my question...is it possible that in each "style" the "martial artist" can be in this position? You don't seem to want to answer.


     
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  13. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    I was humouring you.

    'Stylistic darkness, mmmm are you the martial arts whisperer then, the only one with the 'truth' sent here to teach us the errors of our ways? Look, climb down off your perch and actually engage in conversation rather than lecturing people who frankly don't give a damn. I love my style, I admire and respect the founder of my style immensely. There's people such as Hoshin who know far more than I do ( though I could have an interesting discussion with him about Iain Abernethy lol) , listen to what he says, I do. That way we both learn.
     
  14. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    You really shouldn't, you're right. But not for the reason you give. You make over-arching statements, which purport to speak of all styles. There are martial arts that lack each of those three. Unless you're going to call incidental grabbing (like holding a sleeve while you punch) "grappling", there are many that do not grapple. If you are going to say that's grappling, then you're ignoring common usage, holding to your own definition so you can be "right" instead of trying to actually communicate.

    Mine has a block like that. I put it there. And if you're arguing that's necessarily a grappling move, you're wrong. We are predominantly a grappling art and wouldn't use that block to get to anything grappling that we do. I added that block as an auxiliary tool for odd situations.
     
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  15. MI_martialist

    MI_martialist Purple Belt

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    OK. When you want to have the glasses taken off and your eyesight upgraded, let us know.

    Think more basic and more core and not about your style...the style is the human mechanism and how it is used to defeat the human mechanism.
     
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  16. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    You were the one who made the claim about styles. If you don't like it, correct your original point.
     
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  17. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    This is nonsense. Write properly.
     
  18. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Here, in case you've forgotten who said "all of them" (in this case, based on the preceding posts, apparently "them" is "styles of Karate").
     
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  19. MI_martialist

    MI_martialist Purple Belt

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    Listen, I am sure your systems, methods, schools are all fine...and do a good job of instructing and teaching the curriculum that has been established.

    If you are happy with that, good for you, continue on...if you have ever wondered "where does it all come from" and what was before, then you should want to open your eyes and look at what is really there. Why be satisfied with the order of the curriculum, with the content of the curriculum? Have you ever wondered why your curriculum does a certain thing and not another?

    Answering those questions, and removing the preference of style is the core...the use of the mechanism to defeat another human mechanism. When you look at the core, the equal emphasis of weapons / percussion / grappling is revealed in the movement.

    Would it not be great to let go of teaching and get into the realm of programming action based on core bio-mechanical functions and movements?
     
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  20. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    What, in all that is sacred, has this rambling to do with your original statement that all [styles of karate] contain equal proportions of striking, grappling, and weapons???
     
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