Why break grips?

[Gerry Seymour]

We were doing stand-up gi grappling, I had a grip on my partners sleeve and he used the grip break where you bring your knee up and over and down to break the grip. He just did it more ballistically than necessary and managed to contact my thumb rather than my wrist. It was moderately painful, but I’ve felt much worse. (And in a real fight, adrenaline would have blocked most of the pain until later.) I’m pretty sure it eliminated my ability to grip effectively with that thumb. I wasn’t 100% sure it was actually broken until I got to the ER and saw the x-rays.

I'm frequently amazed at the amount of damage that can happen to the human body without realising how damaged it is.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I'm frequently amazed at the amount of damage that can happen to the human body without realising how damaged it is.

I actually have another finger which was broken without my realizing it all until later.

I was doing some light stand-up sparring and botched a parry (deflected the punch with my finger tips instead of my palm). The last joint on my ring finger swelled up, but it wasn’t too painful so I didn’t think I needed medical treatment.

When the swelling went down, I discovered that the end of the finger was now slightly crooked to one side. It’s still fully functional - just tilted a bit to the right.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Not the end of the world, but it can be expensive. I got a broken thumb in sparring a few years back and it was pretty much shattered. Required surgery and multiple screws to reassemble it.

It wouldn’t have ended the fight in a real confrontation, but I don’t want to pay those kinds of surgery bills from regular training.

I don't want to break my fingers. Training stops rehab sucks and doctor bills suck. Lpl

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I presume by "small joint manipulation techniques" you mean finger breaks, since those are what is illegal in BJJ and MMA competition*. (Also generally banned from regular sparring in most schools. I'd say they fall in the category of "only practice in sparring with friends whose control you really trust.")

The biggest defense I teach against them is proper choice of grips. Being able to isolate fingers in order to bend or break them is something that only comes up in certain positions. When I teach my students techniques from one of those positions, I show them how to best position their hands and choose grips so as to make it as difficult as possible for the opponent to access their fingers and do damage.

*(Technically I suppose that grabbing on to an individual toe and trying to break it would also count as an illegal small joint manipulation, but I've never seen anyone try it and it's not something I would be overly concerned about. Twisting/bending individual fingers are the techniques which have the potential to be dangerous.)

Some of these techniques isolate and wrap one or two fingers and then spiral them out to lock out the consecutive joints. When applied correctly the hand will be broken instead of just a finger. Locking the hand after it’s broken and continuing the spiral produces a white light type of pain. I have a hard time imagining fighting through that. If my opponent had continued to spiral my hand after the break, the spicules on both ends of my 4 th metacarpal would have come out of my hand to say hello. Luckily, my opponent was my best buddy, he let go. The pain really came when I managed to reduce the fracture myself a couple minutes later. It’s easiest to apply these from an opponents grip but not so easy to catch otherwise. These things go from bad to worse if you continue to manipulate the fracture. While some folks here may continue to fight from there, the chance of having permanent injury goes exponentially higher. That’s why I say low percentage to apply it, but if it works, it has catastrophic potential when applied with force and speed. The pain part is entirely subjective, the loss of function is something we can all understand in the context of continuing to fight through injury. Fractured and displaced metacarpals can prevent use of the hand, it’s hard to fight effectively with one hand. So, all that non training stuff aside, I guess im wondering if you have ways of preventing or countering it that you train? I hear people say they will just fight through it, but I have doubts about that.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I don't want to break my fingers. Training stops rehab sucks and doctor bills suck. Lpl

It’s not as simple as just a broken finger, it’s someone continuing to wreck it after it breaks, and locking into the next successive joint. Dr Yang can turn an arm into a sack of gravel IF he sinks the technique. Once he locks the second joint it’s very difficult to escape. This is why I’m curious how Jow ga or BJJ will deal with it. I have a suspicion it would be even more difficult to sink these on you or Tony than an average person.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Whenever I focus on breaking grips, assuming I even can break the grip, I feel like I spend more time and effort breaking the grip than my opponent does re-establishing it. For example, I break my opponent's grip on my lapel. He then grabs my lapel again. I've wasted energy for something he easily got back. And if we keep going, I've burned myself out and they still end up with the grip they wanted.

@Tony Dismukes I know you made some excellent videos in the past, this may be a good topic for another video. I hope you don't consider me out-of-line for requesting it.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Is it acceptable to peel grips by fingers?

 

[skribs]

I was hoping to have it done already, but at this point it’s going to be an “after-the-new-year” thing. Thanks for reminding me. If I I don’t have something in a couple of weeks, feel free to remind me again.

Ping!

I presume by "small joint manipulation techniques" you mean finger breaks, since those are what is illegal in BJJ and MMA competition*. (Also generally banned from regular sparring in most schools. I'd say they fall in the category of "only practice in sparring with friends whose control you really trust.")

The biggest defense I teach against them is proper choice of grips. Being able to isolate fingers in order to bend or break them is something that only comes up in certain positions. When I teach my students techniques from one of those positions, I show them how to best position their hands and choose grips so as to make it as difficult as possible for the opponent to access their fingers and do damage.

*(Technically I suppose that grabbing on to an individual toe and trying to break it would also count as an illegal small joint manipulation, but I've never seen anyone try it and it's not something I would be overly concerned about. Twisting/bending individual fingers are the techniques which have the potential to be dangerous.)

I think this would be another interesting video topic. Either part of the video I suggested earlier, or maybe another one if it doesn't quite fit.

We were doing stand-up gi grappling, I had a grip on my partners sleeve and he used the grip break where you bring your knee up and over and down to break the grip. He just did it more ballistically than necessary and managed to contact my thumb rather than my wrist. It was moderately painful, but I’ve felt much worse. (And in a real fight, adrenaline would have blocked most of the pain until later.) I’m pretty sure it eliminated my ability to grip effectively with that thumb. I wasn’t 100% sure it was actually broken until I got to the ER and saw the x-rays.

270-pound brown belt at my gym taught us a spin-move pass for spider guard. The next day, I tried it on him, failed. I spun back around at the same time he kicked out to re-guard. Heel beats thumb.

I probably should go to the doctor, because that was 6 months ago and it still hurts when I knock it. (Not the thumb itself, but the thumb bone in my hand).

 

[marvin8]

Hi Tony, I wanted to follow up on this. Or is this now an "after-the-new-year" thing?

Which grip info are you looking for? (There's a lot of video on stand up grip fighting.) Dominate grip by inside position on lapel and pin the sleeve.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Ping!

I think this would be another interesting video topic. Either part of the video I suggested earlier, or maybe another one if it doesn't quite fit.

270-pound brown belt at my gym taught us a spin-move pass for spider guard. The next day, I tried it on him, failed. I spun back around at the same time he kicked out to re-guard. Heel beats thumb.

I probably should go to the doctor, because that was 6 months ago and it still hurts when I knock it. (Not the thumb itself, but the thumb bone in my hand).

Thanks for the reminder. I'm going to be visiting family this week, but I'll try to record some video next week.

 

[skribs]

Thanks for the reminder. I'm going to be visiting family this week, but I'll try to record some video next week.

I feel like this is becoming a running joke between us.

 

[drop bear]

It’s not as simple as just a broken finger, it’s someone continuing to wreck it after it breaks, and locking into the next successive joint. Dr Yang can turn an arm into a sack of gravel IF he sinks the technique. Once he locks the second joint it’s very difficult to escape. This is why I’m curious how Jow ga or BJJ will deal with it. I have a suspicion it would be even more difficult to sink these on you or Tony than an average person.

It is very hard to manipulate a broken arm

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I feel like this is becoming a running joke between us.

I added a reminder to my calendar for next Tuesday to record class.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Which grip info are you looking for? (There's a lot of video on stand up grip fighting.) Dominate grip by inside position on lapel and pin the sleeve.

Why didn't he try to break his opponent grip completely apart?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

It is very hard to manipulate a broken arm

Not true at all. I have manipulated, or assisted in manipulation of broken arms, reduced fractures in, implanted, drilled, plated, casted, bandaged, sutured, radiographed, etc. all on broken arms. If I can perform closed reduction of fracture, I’m absolutely certain I know how to make it worse. I can even explain it to you in detail if you so desire.

 

[marvin8]

Why didn't he try to break his opponent grip completely apart?

So he can control, throw once he creates the balance break (timing), score points and not get points deducted for stalling.

 

[HighKick]

I'm frequently amazed at the amount of damage that can happen to the human body without realising how damaged it is.

Adrenaline is an amazing hormone.
I played 3-quarters of (American) football with a broken hand that later required surgery. Two weeks later, with a cast on, I continued to play (yeah, I was young and stupid). The following week I made a tackle and reinjured the hand, requiring surgery again. That ended my season.
Several years later, I was at a high-level 3-day circuit tournament. On the second day, I made a bad move and exposed my ribs to a spinning side kick, cracking two ribs. After a 1-minute timeout, I finished the match with a win, getting me to the 3rd round. The next morning, feeling like crap but driven (by desire and adrenaline) I taped my ribs up and competed. Long story short, I went home with one fully broken rib, one cracked rib, and two hellishly painful soft tissue injuries. I missed the next circuit event by two matches.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I added a reminder to my calendar for next Tuesday to record class.

I did not forget, but my instructor ended up coming in to teach a guest class yesterday. I might have another guest instructor coming in on Thursday, but if not I'll try to cover grip breaks and get someone to record class.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So he can control, throw once he creates the balance break (timing), score points and not get points deducted for stalling.

A different solution, instead of trying to break your opponent's grips apart, will it be better if you can wrap your opponent's fingers with your clothes, so his hand is completely disable?

 

[marvin8]

So he can control, throw once he creates the balance break (timing), score points and not get points deducted for stalling.

A different solution, instead of trying to break your opponent's grips apart, will it be better if you can wrap your opponent's fingers with your clothes, so his hand is completely disable?

Your opponent can release his grip. My posted video shows break the grip, establish a dominating grip (control), gain position then takedown.