Why break grips?

[Kung Fu Wang]

Being physically smaller than most I much preferred getting inside and tight.

In theory, to be inside will give you more advantage than to be outside.

- To be inside, you can "expand".
- To be outside, you can "squeeze".

The problem may happen when your opponent's "squeeze" force is more powerful than your 'expand" force.

 

[skribs]

I need to get back to making videos, so I'll make an effort to get something recorded for you. I only teach one class next week before I go on vacation, so if I'll probably aim for after Thanksgiving.

In the meantime, here's an important concept. Don't just break the grip and let go. In the moment when you break their grip, you generally will have hold of their hand, wrist, and/or sleeve. Use that to immediately establish your own control, redirecting their attempts to grab you again.

Hi Tony, I wanted to follow up on this. Or is this now an "after-the-new-year" thing?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Hi Tony, I wanted to follow up on this. Or is this now an "after-the-new-year" thing?

I was hoping to have it done already, but at this point it’s going to be an “after-the-new-year” thing. Thanks for reminding me. If I I don’t have something in a couple of weeks, feel free to remind me again.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Here's my approach for grips. I don't want yo break all grips. Some times I want the grip there so I can establish my own. Chin Na is well known for "You grab me. I grab you"

I don't always want to break the grip when some one grabs me. I rather establish control with my own grip. Even when I break the grip It's for the purpose of establishing my own. To be break the grip and escape the grip are two different things.

Based on what you post it makes me think that you are thinking escape the grip and not control the grip.

Grip prevent is like escape the grip on steroids. When I'm in that mindset I'm I'm not looking to establish my grip. I'm looking to deny my opponent's grip.

Real life example Tony tried to establish a clinch. I used circling hands to deny the grip without establishing my own.

Tony tries to establish a clinch and I place the palm of my hand under his jaw to control the head. His effort grab me is what allows me to grab him and keep my hand under his Jaw. I used his grip to establish my own.

Escape/Deny
Control/Establish/Counter
Can be found in your techniques. Knowing which one to use and when is the tricky part is like everything."know when and where to use it"

But small joint manipulation is not allowed in many places and the risk of injury is high with many of the Chin na techniques. Did you and Tony film any of this? I’m very interested to see it if you did.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

But small joint manipulation is not allowed in many places and the risk of injury is high with many of the Chin na techniques. Did you and Tony film any of this? I’m very interested to see it if you did.

We didn’t, but hopefully we can record some the next time we get together.

 

[JowGaWolf]

But small joint manipulation is not allowed in many places and the risk of injury is high with many of the Chin na techniques. Did you and Tony film any of this? I’m very interested to see it if you did.

It doesn't have to be a small joint grip. It can be some one grabbing my wrist.

 

[JowGaWolf]

We didn’t, but hopefully we can record some the next time we get together.

Next time I will put more effort so that the techniques will be accurate in application. Besides I know you wanted to see more effort so I'll do that.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

We didn’t, but hopefully we can record some the next time we get together.

Please do, I am very interested to see that particular video. How does BJJ deal with those non legal small joint manipulation techniques? It must happen somewhere, sometime, whether intentional or not. In my very small experience, successful application seems to be very much related to an individual practitioners understanding of/experience with these types of techniques. I would judge the bulk of small joint manipulation as low percentage techniques. They seem to be most effective against someone who is not familiar with them. I am able to handily counter the majority of them so far with structure alone( i am only at level 1). They are however, potentially catastrophic if properly applied with intention to an untrained opponent.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Next time I will put more effort so that the techniques will be accurate in application. Besides I know you wanted to see more effort so I'll do that.

I’m just interested to see what you guys come up with on the contrast. Good work fellas!

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

It doesn't have to be a small joint grip. It can be some one grabbing my wrist.

I’m just spit balling because of the Chin na I’m doing with Dr Yang.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Please do, I am very interested to see that particular video. How does BJJ deal with those non legal small joint manipulation techniques?

Ohhhh I can't do small joint locks in sparring. I don't hsve enough control for that. I've never used those in sparring before. I don't think I would ever recommend it. I didn't realize you were specifically referring to small joint locks.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Please do, I am very interested to see that particular video. How does BJJ deal with those non legal small joint manipulation techniques? It must happen somewhere, sometime, whether intentional or not. In my very small experience, successful application seems to be very much related to an individual practitioners understanding of/experience with these types of techniques. I would judge the bulk of small joint manipulation as low percentage techniques. They seem to be most effective against someone who is not familiar with them. I am able to handily counter the majority of them so far with structure alone( i am only at level 1). They are however, potentially catastrophic if properly applied with intention to an untrained opponent.

I'm not sure if they are low percentage or if it just seems that they are. I would see them low percentage against someone making a fist, but if you are grappling then it probably open season. My guess is that if you had to actually apply one in a fight that you would make sure you have it and then fully apply it when you go go for it.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

How does BJJ deal with those non legal small joint manipulation techniques?

I presume by "small joint manipulation techniques" you mean finger breaks, since those are what is illegal in BJJ and MMA competition*. (Also generally banned from regular sparring in most schools. I'd say they fall in the category of "only practice in sparring with friends whose control you really trust.")

The biggest defense I teach against them is proper choice of grips. Being able to isolate fingers in order to bend or break them is something that only comes up in certain positions. When I teach my students techniques from one of those positions, I show them how to best position their hands and choose grips so as to make it as difficult as possible for the opponent to access their fingers and do damage.

*(Technically I suppose that grabbing on to an individual toe and trying to break it would also count as an illegal small joint manipulation, but I've never seen anyone try it and it's not something I would be overly concerned about. Twisting/bending individual fingers are the techniques which have the potential to be dangerous.)

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'd say they fall in the category of "only practice in sparring with friends whose control you really trust.")

. Lol. You Can trust that I don't trust myself. So I won't be exploring Chin na. I better figure out Jow Ga just in case you decide to send some long fist at me. Lol.

 

[drop bear]

Please do, I am very interested to see that particular video. How does BJJ deal with those non legal small joint manipulation techniques? It must happen somewhere, sometime, whether intentional or not. In my very small experience, successful application seems to be very much related to an individual practitioners understanding of/experience with these types of techniques. I would judge the bulk of small joint manipulation as low percentage techniques. They seem to be most effective against someone who is not familiar with them. I am able to handily counter the majority of them so far with structure alone( i am only at level 1). They are however, potentially catastrophic if properly applied with intention to an untrained opponent.

Not as catastrophic as you think. Yes you break a finger. No it's not the end of the world.

Now admittedly when ever I have seen someone break or dislocate a finger in training they stop. But the generally stop and then run around the room showing everyone.

If it were the sort of fight that involved pulling fingers. It wouldn't end that fight.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Not as catastrophic as you think. Yes you break a finger. No it's not the end of the world.

Not the end of the world, but it can be expensive. I got a broken thumb in sparring a few years back and it was pretty much shattered. Required surgery and multiple screws to reassemble it.

It wouldn’t have ended the fight in a real confrontation, but I don’t want to pay those kinds of surgery bills from regular training.

 

[drop bear]

Not the end of the world, but it can be expensive. I got a broken thumb in sparring a few years back and it was pretty much shattered. Required surgery and multiple screws to reassemble it.

It wouldn’t have ended the fight in a real confrontation, but I don’t want to pay those kinds of surgery bills from regular training.

Yeah. Sorry. Went for the late edit.

I assume if we are talking about breaking fingers. We are no longer talking about training.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not as catastrophic as you think. Yes you break a finger. No it's not the end of the world.

Now admittedly when ever I have seen someone break or dislocate a finger in training they stop. But the generally stop and then run around the room showing everyone.

If it were the sort of fight that involved pulling fingers. It wouldn't end that fight.

Agreed. I've had two dislocated fingers. One, I was playing goalie in soccer, and finished the game after quickly popping it back in. The other happened during a friend's blackbelt test (dislocated thumb on strong hand), and I just kept going until we got to a stop. I've done things that hurt less in training that stopped me, but in both of those situations, I was amped about what was going on, and kept going.

The toe I dislocated was a hard stop, but I dislocated it with a lot of force (came down on it out of a shoulder throw).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not the end of the world, but it can be expensive. I got a broken thumb in sparring a few years back and it was pretty much shattered. Required surgery and multiple screws to reassemble it.

It wouldn’t have ended the fight in a real confrontation, but I don’t want to pay those kinds of surgery bills from regular training.

I think it also depends on the "break" - many of the things we (generally speaking) learn for breaking fingers would probably be more likely to dislocate them. Those bones are hard to get leverage on, and are surrounded by joints that often give first. I'm guessing your break was both more painful and more mechanically incapacitating than my dislocations.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I think it also depends on the "break" - many of the things we (generally speaking) learn for breaking fingers would probably be more likely to dislocate them. Those bones are hard to get leverage on, and are surrounded by joints that often give first. I'm guessing your break was both more painful and more mechanically incapacitating than my dislocations.

We were doing stand-up gi grappling, I had a grip on my partners sleeve and he used the grip break where you bring your knee up and over and down to break the grip. He just did it more ballistically than necessary and managed to contact my thumb rather than my wrist. It was moderately painful, but I’ve felt much worse. (And in a real fight, adrenaline would have blocked most of the pain until later.) I’m pretty sure it eliminated my ability to grip effectively with that thumb. I wasn’t 100% sure it was actually broken until I got to the ER and saw the x-rays.