Who is the Founder of TKD...Debate!

[MichiganTKD]

For ITF students, Gen. Choi is considered to be the founder of TKD-a title he did little or nothing to dispute.

For many if not most WTF students, Tae Kwon Do is considered to be the product of the various Kwans coming together.

For many Chung Do Kwan students, Won Kuk Lee is considered the founding father of modern Tae Kwon Do since he was the first to teach.

It all depends on who you ask and their affiliation.

Something that separates Korean culture from other cultures: They tend to look at the various products of their culture in evolutionary terms. In other words, their sports, language, culture, and history evolved over time. If you ask a Japanese karate student "Who created Karate, or who created this style?", they will tell you "Gichin Funakoshi founded karate" or "Chojun Miyagi founded goju-ryu". If you ask a Korean "Who founded Tae Kwon Do?" they will tell you that Tae Kwon Do is a natural product of Korean evolution. Different people contributed to it over the years. There is no single founder.

 

[47MartialMan]

But the term? Who coined the term?

 

[MichiganTKD]

Spookey,

Han Moo Kwan became Tae Kwon Do at the founding of the KTA. The Korean gov't essentially told all Kwans "Join the KTA and become Tae Kwon Do or lose your gov't recognition" Up until that time, the Tae Kwon Do movement was essentially a Chung Do Kwan-Oh Do Kwan project. By no means did all Kwans accept "Tae Kwon Do" as their name. One advantage that Gen. Choi had: a lot of influence with the Korean gov't because of his military rank. In fact, one of the reasons why there is TKD Moo Duk Kwan and TSD Moo Duk Kwan is because some schools joined the KTA, while the ones under Ki Hwang refused.
Before the KTA was founded, the name of your style was pretty much whatever the Kwang Jang said it was. You had almost as many style names as Kwan names.
However, we don't have conclusive proof that Gen. Choi invented the name "Tae Kwon Do". He says he did, Son Duk Song says he did. Won Kuk Lee says the Instructors consulted a Korean dictionary and came up with the phrase. We most likely will never know.

 

[Spookey]

MichiganTKD,

I am well aware of the history of the KTA and it's absorbtion of the Kwan system. Also, you are probably well aware that many kwans after joining the KTA continued on as TSD gyms even after joining the KTA!

There are those today that believe that Tae Kwon Do is merely another (more modern) name for Tang Soo Do. We know otherwise.

So, from your post I can determine that the Han Mu Kwan began to refer to itself as TKD after it's forced inception into the KTA. What we now seek to determine is whether they actually began the practice of TKD at that point in time or if they continued to teach TSD...

I can tell you I am Abe Lincoln, but that does not mean I am!

TAEKWON!
Spookey

 

[terryl965]

Reference Book Tae kwon Do by Yeon Hee Park:

The earliest records of TKD practices date back to about 50 b.c. During this time, Korea was divided into three kingdoms Silla, which was founded on the Kyongiu plain in 57 b.c.; Korguryo, founded in the Yalu River Valley in 37 b.c.; and Baekche founded in the southwestern area of the Korean pennisula in18 b.c. Evidence of the practice of Tae; Kyon ( the earliest known form of TKD) has been found in paintings on the cieling of the Muyoung-Chong, a royal tomb from the Koguryo dynasty. These and other mural painting show unarmed combatants using techniques that are virtually identical to those of modernday TKD. Of particular interest are details that show the use of the knife hand, fist ans ckassical fighting stances, all componants of modern TKD.

Althrough TKD first appeared in the Koguryo kingdom, it is Silla's warrior nobility, the Hwarangs, who are credited with the growth and spead of the Art throughout Korea. Of the three kingdoms, Silla was the first to be formed, butit remained the smallest and least civilized. ItsCoastline was constantly under attack by Japanese pirated. After Silla appealed for help against the continual harassement by the Japanese pirates, King Gwanggaeto, the 19th in the line of Koruryo monarchs, sent a force of 50,000 soldiers into neighboring Silla to help the smaller kingdom drive out the pirates. It is at this time that Yaek Kyon is thought to have been introduce to Silla's warriors class, handed down in strict secrecy to a few select Sillan warriors by early Master of the Art.

These Taek Kyon-trained warriors became known as the Hwarang. Founded initially as a military academy for the young nobility of Silla.

Just thought I would throw this in the mix and see where it leads.

 

[Whitebelt]

Direct answer to the question. Tae Kwon Do was developed when Karate, Judo and Kendo where introduced to Korea. Genral Choi only created the Federation to promote it around the world.

 

[Spookey]

Whitebelt,


The thread is titled "Who is the Founder of TKD"...the post you made is in no way a direct answer. Let us look at your post~!

Kendo is the Founder of TKD (That doesnt work)
Karate is the Founder of TKD (Doesnt work either)
Judo is the Founder of TKD (Not that one either)...

In what way is this a direct answer? To be short, IT ISNT!

TAEKWON!
SPookey

 

[Miles]

Miles,

I have visited the Kuk Mu Do (Han Mu Do) official webite. I too saw the reference to the book. My next questions/comments are as follows:

1. What patterns did the Han Mu Kwan practice prior to the Pal-Gwe and Tae Geuks?

2. The "Modern History of Taekwon-Do" (which was often quoted in the early portion of this thread), states the Han Mu Kwan to be a TSD gym...just wondering when this changed?Spookey

Spookey,

Sorry, I do not know what patterns the Han Moo Kwan practiced prior to the creation of the Palgwe and Taegueks. I have never seen the official Han Moo Kwan website, though there are a number of Han Moo Kwan people in Michigan: GM KIL, Sang Sup being most prominent. I will likely see him at a tournament on 3/26 and will ask him if I get a chance.

The book I have by GM LEE, Kyo Yoon is entitled "A Guide to Taekwondo" and it has several photos of GM KIL, Sang Sup and his students in it. It also has poomsae from Taeguek 1 through Jitae. In his preface, GM LEE, Kyo Yoon does not even mention his own important role in the formulation of Taekwondo...again, a sign that it was a collaborative effort.

Are you relying on strictly patterns as far as what is or is not TKD?

MichiganTKD accurately described the political situation in which the Kwans were brought together. It is my understanding that the Oh Do Kwan and Chung Do Kwan did use the Taekwondo name while others called their art Tang Soo Do, Tae Soo Do, or Kong Soo Do. But, they came together to be Taekwondo (with the exception of a portion of the Moo Duk Kwan which maintained itself as Tang Soo Do/Soo Bahk Do).

This is what the Modern History says about Han Moo Kwan:

<<Chapter 1: The Development of the Kwans

Chapter 1, Section 8: Han Moo Kwan

LEE Kyo Yoon founded the Han Moo Kwan in August 1956, and it
was the leader of the new schools in the mid 1950's. Even now, LEE
Kyo Yoon denies that the Han Moo Kwan was a split from the
Jidokwan. After the Chosun Yun Moo Kwan's CHUN Sang Sup was
kidnapped to North Korea during the Korean War, everything was in
chaos, so LEE Chong Woo opened the Jidokwan, and he himself
opened the Han Moo Kwan. Therefore Han Moo Kwan's root is not
Jidokwan, but rather from the Chosun Yun Moo Kwan. This is LEE
Kyo Yoon's claim.

LEE Kyo Yoon says: "In November 1950, I came back to Seoul and
taught Tang Soo Do (Taekwondo). But the Choson Yun Moo Kwan's
LEE Jae Hwang said the building I was using was a Yudo place, so he
insisted that I leave. After thinking for a long time, I went to visit
Vice President LEE Sang Mook of the Korean Amateur Sports
Gymnasium (Han Kuk Che Yuk Kwan, Han Che for short) and he
allowed me to start a Taekwondo club and teach."

Back then, the Han Kuk Che Yuk Kwan taught boxing, Judo,
wrestling, weight lifting and fencing as a universal gym. With the
permission of LEE Sang Mook, LEE Kyo Yoon taught Taekwondo
(Tang Soo Do) temporarily and secured 200 members. However,
conflicts with LEE Chong Woo became amplified and with LEE Sang
Mook's suggestion, he temporarily stopped teaching Taekwondo.

Then he went to Chang Sin Dong of Jong Ro Gu, Seoul at the
backyard of Kang Moon High School to open his own school. This
led to the founding of the Han Moo Kwan. The period of the Chang
Sin Dong was a hardship. He called his tent with a straw mat for a
floor, a dojang.

Despite this hard life, his school reputation grew and finally in
1969, he could open his central dojang in Wang Sip Ni, Seoul.>>

Miles

 

[Spookey]

Miles,


The best site I have found regarding the current Han Mu Kwan is the website of Kuk Mu Do Kwan!

Regarding patterns...They play an integral part in determining what is and is not TKD. For instance, if you are practicing the Pyuang Ahn Hyungs (Pinan or Heinan Kata) I do not see how that is TKD as it is plainly Karate-Do (Tang Soo Do). This is my primary reason for the inquiry.

Traditional Martial Arts pattern sets are a direct reflection of the system or styles cirricullum. The katas of Karate are representative of Karate, not Taekwon-Do!

TAEKWON!
Spooks

 

[terryl965]

I guess I'm confuse, the question is who founded TKD. Well everything that you guy's post is after 1950 and the coaralation between Kwans so are you looking for the beginning or just past 1950 and modern TKD. In a post about three up I gave reference about Silla founded in around 57 b.c. in the Kyongiu plain. So my question to you are you looking for modern TKD or the actual history that some have written about.

 

[47MartialMan]

Spookey,

Han Moo Kwan became Tae Kwon Do at the founding of the KTA. The Korean gov't essentially told all Kwans "Join the KTA and become Tae Kwon Do or lose your gov't recognition" Up until that time, the Tae Kwon Do movement was essentially a Chung Do Kwan-Oh Do Kwan project. By no means did all Kwans accept "Tae Kwon Do" as their name. One advantage that Gen. Choi had: a lot of influence with the Korean gov't because of his military rank. In fact, one of the reasons why there is TKD Moo Duk Kwan and TSD Moo Duk Kwan is because some schools joined the KTA, while the ones under Ki Hwang refused.
Before the KTA was founded, the name of your style was pretty much whatever the Kwang Jang said it was. You had almost as many style names as Kwan names.
However, we don't have conclusive proof that Gen. Choi invented the name "Tae Kwon Do". He says he did, Son Duk Song says he did. Won Kuk Lee says the Instructors consulted a Korean dictionary and came up with the phrase. We most likely will never know.

Yes. i have read/heard sometihng alomg the lines of this.

 

[Spookey]

Dear Sir,

The content of you earlier post (refering back to the original three kingdoms) is great information concerning the history of Korean Martial Arts in general.

That information may be true of the history of Korean Arts in general, however, it is not reflective of the history specific to the art of Tae Kwon Do!

The modern history of Taekwon-Do is the only history specific to Taekwon-Do as all else is related to the ancient arts of the "Three Kingdoms". Regarless of affiliation (ITF, WTF, GTF, ect.) it is widely recognized that the art we practice today that is refered to as Tae Kwon Do is not an ancient art as it was created as a means of identity for the nation of Korea in a post occupational period!

TAEKWON!
Spookey

 

[Miles]

Miles,
The best site I have found regarding the current Han Mu Kwan is the website of Kuk Mu Do Kwan!

Thank you, if that is a school in Kansas? I think I have seen it.

Regarding patterns...They play an integral part in determining what is and is not TKD. For instance, if you are practicing the Pyuang Ahn Hyungs (Pinan or Heinan Kata) I do not see how that is TKD as it is plainly Karate-Do (Tang Soo Do). This is my primary reason for the inquiry.

So, if Grandmaster SON, Duk Song, the 2nd Kwan Jang of the Chung Do Kwan, teaches the pyung ahn hyung, he is not teaching Taekwondo?

I think there are quite a few Taekwondo schools where students learn several series of hyung, to include the pyung ahn series.

Miles

 

[terryl965]

Now Spookey you said it is not reflective of the history specific to the art of Tae Kwon Do! So ypu are looking for the Art or the sport.

The modern history of Taekwon-Do is the only history specific to Taekwon-Do as all else is related to the ancient arts of the "Three Kingdoms". Regarless of affiliation (ITF, WTF, GTF, ect.) it is widely recognized that the art we practice today that is refered to as Tae Kwon Do is not an ancient art as it was created as a means of identity for the nation of Korea in a post occupational period!

Well the modern history is the sport because the WTF wants it that way along with the USA TKD and the Kukkiwon. So that would lead back to Genaral Choi.

 

[terryl965]

information may be true of the history of Korean Arts in general, however, it is not reflective of the history specific to the art of Tae Kwon Do!

So the only history is post occupation, are you so wrong! You need to look upon history and quite believing everything you read about Modern TKD and look into the deep past of the Art itself.

 

[47MartialMan]

The modern history of Taekwon-Do is the only history specific to Taekwon-Do as all else is related to the ancient arts of the "Three Kingdoms". Regarless of affiliation (ITF, WTF, GTF, ect.) it is widely recognized that the art we practice today that is refered to as Tae Kwon Do is not an ancient art as it was created as a means of identity for the nation of Korea in a post occupational period!

I like this though it may stir up controversy with Korean Martial Art practitioners.

 

[TigerWoman]

I found this rather lengthy history of Korean martial arts. The author says he has spent some 30 years compiling it. For your reference, perhaps...
history reference here TW

 

[47MartialMan]

That was very interesting, thanks for the link

 

[terryl965]

I found this rather lengthy history of Korean martial arts. The author says he has spent some 30 years compiling it. For your reference, perhaps...
history reference here TW

Very good piece of work it say's about the same as Reference Book Tae kwon Do by Yeon Hee Park:
It talks about the three kingdom but nobody brothers to read just make comments about things they have no idea about. just my humble observation.
So many people take up a sport and never really look into the Art for there Master have no ideal about the other aspect of TKD because they are sport orrientated as well.
By no means am I saying the relates to anybody just a comment from a OLD FOOL WHO IS LOST IN HIS OWN WORLD

 

[MichiganTKD]

Here is a link to an article in Tae Kwon Do Times that interviewed GM Won Kuk Lee about Tae Kwon Do and his place in TKD history:

http://www.tangsudo.it/html/leewonkuk.html

At the end of the article, GM Lee point blank states that "I am the founder of modern Tae Kwon Do in Korea."

I think for the most part, modern Tae Kwon Do was a collaborative effort between the Chung Do Kwan and the Oh Do Kwan. GM Won Kuk Lee started it, and it took off from there. The fact that it was called Tang Soo Do originally is irrelevant. Tang Soo Do at the time was basically a generic name for what they were practicing. If you think about it, Tae Kwon Do is a rather generic name as well.