Who is the Founder of TKD...Debate!

[Miles]

In conclusion, I believe Choi Hong Hi (and company) created an international art called Taekwon-Do. Then after the success of Taekwon-Do, the Kwan Jangs (who were previously unaccepting of Taekwon-Do) as well as the Korean government chose to use the reputation of TKD as a means of international recognition for their country.

The Korean Kukkiwon did succeed in bringing the kwans together (a great acomplishment). Also, they did manage to create a unique art seperate from Karate (and Taekwon-Do). The only thing they have yet to do is name their art! Instead they chose to use the international recognition previously gained by the dictator that wouldnt follow their rules...
(Please choose to debate as opposed to FLAME!)

: Choi Hong Hi, because of his military ties, became a sort-of "poster boy" for heading up a movement for a unique Korean martial art - even though he was certainly not the most senior or knowledgable martial artist in Korea at that time. He created the Chang Hon(Blue Cottage) forms in 1950 based on his former training (he studied karate in Japan), but gave the forms names to commemorate events unique to Korean history in an attempt to make a unique identity away from anything, "Non-Korean."

Under his leadership and backed by govt. support, he solicited many martial artists to forget their previous training an teach the newly created "uniquely Korean" requirements. Many were eager to accept this duty, since the govt. gave out salaries for these people - which in war-torn S. Korea was a big deal.- most were very poor.

Spookey, I believe you are correct that Gen Choi created the first set of indigenous Korean forms. Not to minimize his contribution, but to put it into perspective, I've culled RMclain's post which states the itnernationalization of the art much more succinctly than I could.

I disagree with you as to the that the Kwan Jang were unaccepting of unification under the Taekwondo banner, but they understandably had their own ideas as to what should be done-that's human nature.

Taekwondo is the name they chose ultimately to call their art. Gen. Choi was part of the board which named the Art, but he was not senior in terms of martial art experience. GM SON, Duk Sung was the most senior martial artist on the naming committee. Gen Choi later requested that GM Son promote him (Choi) to 6th dan, so Gen Choi acknowledged he was junior to GM Son.

Miles

 

[47MartialMan]

So, is Tae Kwon Do considered a karate type and in analogy Hapkido considered Jui-Jitsu type?

 

[Miles]

So, is Tae Kwon Do considered a karate type and in analogy Hapkido considered Jui-Jitsu type?

No, I think Taekwondo, while having roots in Karate-do, is not a type thereof but a separate art which has and continues to evolve. This is similar to both Judo and Hapkido which have roots in Ju-jitsu but are separate arts as well.

Miles

 

[47MartialMan]

Good point...anyone else?

 

[Marginal]

I have long stopped practicing Tae Kwon Do, as well as Korean arts. I still have a respect for them and that they do develop skill and discipline. Just like any created martial art per century, all have benefits. But many, have fabricated history or history based upon speculation. This is to “glorify”, their name or art. This does not have to be so

Did you just cut and paste all that from various web sites?

Why?

 

[rmclain]

R. McLain,

May I ask where did you get your references from? This is not to discredit you, but I would like to read and locate them for future reference.

Any links or such?


Thanks

Much of what I write, anyone can find on the internet.

My direct instructor is Grandmaster Kim Soo - from the Taekwondo Times Magazine "Letter to the editor" article you have. He tells me about the martial arts available following WWII until he came to the US in January 1968. He is from the original Chang Moo Kwan and Kang Duk Won, beginning in 1951, and was there to witness the development of what became Taekwondo. He firmly refused teaching the newly created Taekwondo-only curriculum in Korea and immigrated to the US to have the freedom to teach and pass along his original teachers' legacy. Many instructors were angry with him for teaching what they considered "unpatriotic/non-Korean" martial arts.

Sort-of strange he had to take those teachings out of Korea to preserve them. There is a rising interest of what has been lost because of the push for a nationalistic art and sport. He has been invited in Korea to lecture at the Cultural Museum the past several years. Here is a link to photos and story about his visit:

http://www.kimsookarate.com/gallery-present/koreaTrip0804/KoreaTrip_pt2.htm

http://www.kimsookarate.com/gallery-present/LectureKyongBok/lectureKyongBok_1.htm


His web site: http://www.kimsookarate.com

R. McLain

 

[47MartialMan]

Did you just cut and paste all that from various web sites?

Why?

What copy and paste from what various web sites? Please explain so that I may respond properly

 

[47MartialMan]

My direct instructor is Grandmaster Kim Soo - from the Taekwondo Times Magazine "Letter to the editor" article you have. He tells me about the martial arts available following WWII until he came to the US in January 1968. He is from the original Chang Moo Kwan and Kang Duk Won, beginning in 1951, and was there to witness the development of what became Taekwondo. He firmly refused teaching the newly created Taekwondo-only curriculum in Korea and immigrated to the US to have the freedom to teach and pass along his original teachers' legacy. Many instructors were angry with him for teaching what they considered "unpatriotic/non-Korean" martial arts.

Sort-of strange he had to take those teachings out of Korea to preserve them. There is a rising interest of what has been lost because of the push for a nationalistic art and sport. He has been invited in Korea to lecture at the Cultural Museum the past several years. Here is a link to photos and story about his visit:

Not to sound too delectable, but visiting his site has me telling you that you are fortunate to study with him. These Korean instructors of that caliber are hard to find

 

[Spookey]

Miles,


Apologies if I missed the point, but does the fact that the RoK government (for a time) or the fact that there was monitary gain for those choosing to teach have any bearing on my post?

A few more points to ponder...

1. The kwans formed the Korea TaeSooDo Association (it was renamed Korean Taekwon-Do Association at the demand of General Choi)

2. Neither the KTA, WTF, nor Kukkiwon, published any known text on THEIR uniquely Korean art (Taekwon-Do) until almost two decades after the original text by General Choi on the art of Taekwon-Do.

3. Provided documentation when read in full will plainly show that the term Taekwon-Do as well as the original forms (both coined by Choi) were not accepted among the kwans as they prefered the term Tae Soo Do and the Pyong Ahn Hyungs (Heian Katas of Shotokan) as well as other pre-existing patterns developed for other arts.

Being that I was hoping for debate, I will humby request subjective analysis of my post and more specific replies as opposed to generalizations that fail to directly address my posts!

TAEKWON!
Spookey

 

[Marginal]

What copy and paste from what various web sites? Please explain so that I may respond properly

I asked you if you had cut and pasted that from various web sites. You post was not at all clear on if you actually ever studied TKD, or were just reposting an anecdote from someone else, and culling info from a Google search as your linkography seemed to indicate.

If you did just copy that information from other web sites and (by extension) other people, why did you bother?

 

[47MartialMan]

You mean my long post here did not indicate that I had studied? Hmmn...maybe it didnt post.I apologize for the confusion:
Yes, I had studied TKD

 

[Marginal]

You mean my long post here did not indicate that I had studied?

No. It wasn't clear if you were pasting in an anecdote you found on a web site, or posting your own experience.

Hence my question.

 

[47MartialMan]

In what form would you not think it was mine by me using "I"?

 

[DragonFooter]

To me very simple,Taekwon-do evovled from karate. When the evolution is completed the techniques executed have a Korean flavour. Hence that was probably the roots of Taekwon-do. Since the techniques and combat style are executed distinctively from Karate, Gen. Choi propose to gather these techniques under the name Taekwon-do. Gen Choi founder of the first TKD style? You bet!

 

[Teh Tot]

Im going to have to disagree with you on a part of your post about who came first.

General Choi started his form of Taekwon-Do in a Japaneese prison to aleviate the bordom and to keep phisically fit. His cellmate and jailer became his students and when he was liberated in August 1945 he became a luitenent in the korean army and teaching his entire company. Ill post more on this a bit later.

 

[47MartialMan]

Marginal-I do not mean to sound sarcastic. Allow me to re-start this. Taken it from the opposite or "in someone elses' shoe":

Looking back at the post (my) and its length, it would appear to be cut and pasted. Per maybe a plagerized, parody, or excogitated.

For whatever the reason, this is an assumption from you that it came from a website.

In essence, to clear the matter, I had cut and pasted it-but from my own creation, per using MS Word. This program was "opened" at that time, so I had used it in conjunction with the forum. I cannot do this often because of malfunctions.

Peace

 

[MichiganTKD]

Given that the Koreans had suffered under almost 40 years of Japanese oppression (and I do mean suffered), it is entirely understandable that the senior Tae Kwon Do instructors would certainly NOT want a Korean martial art that used Japanese forms. There will be a certain amount of Japanese influence because of the instructors' backgrounds, but how can you have a Korean martial art and practice Japanese forms? This is almost saying "Practice Karate forms because you Koreans don't deserve forms you developed yourself. You are not smart enough to do that." Don't forget, someone created the Japanese forms as well. They didn't just appear at the whim of the gods.
Think about it. America is annexed by the Soviet Union, which proceeds to wipe out all signs of American culture, history, language, and pride. You must think, speak, and act Russian. After they are defeated, forgive me if I'm a little hesitant to consciously adapt Russian norms to my way of thinking. And if someone rejects American attempts at independant thought in favor of Russian thought because it is more traditional, they'd be a little suspect. Why consciously stay with the customs of the country that brutalized your nation for 40 years? Better to assert American independence and start over with new ideas.
Tae Kwon Do is the same way. I do not acknowlege Choi as the Founder of Tae Kwon Do. To do so neglects everyone else who played a part. He was a pioneer and leader. As Miles stated, he was more or less the Face of Tae Kwon Do at that point because of his military credentials. I do give him credit for being the first to introduce forms that consciously brought a Korean identity to Tae Kwon Do. I do think his forms, however, more or less just introduced techniques that the other kwans were already doing. One forms showcased Tae Kwon Do's spinning and jump kicks. Those were already being done in Chung Do Kwan. The forms just didn't reflect that. Much like today-the modern TKD forms of the WTF do not contain the kicking techniques it is famous for. Perhaps the new forms will remedy that.

 

[47MartialMan]

There will be a certain amount of Japanese influence because of the instructors' backgrounds, but how can you have a Korean martial art and practice Japanese forms? This is almost saying "Practice Karate forms because you Koreans don't deserve forms you developed yourself. You are not smart enough to do that."
How true, anyone with years, or decades of expeience could and should to this to get out of oppression.


Don't forget, someone created the Japanese forms as well. They didn't just appear at the whim of the gods.
And someone had shown or created these as well...And so on....

How interesting....

 

[Miles]

Miles,
Apologies if I missed the point, but does the fact that the RoK government (for a time) or the fact that there was monitary gain for those choosing to teach have any bearing on my post?

No problem. You implied that AFTER Taekwondo was successful internationally that the ROK got on board. My point was that actually, it was BECAUSE the ROK Government sent the instructors all over that Taekwondo became more popular. You were giving Gen Choi credit for what actually was the ROK Government's practice.

1. The kwans formed the Korea TaeSooDo Association (it was renamed Korean Taekwon-Do Association at the demand of General Choi)

I believe you are correct. I think that General Choi had the political backing and the authoritarian style necessary to push for the change in the name.

2. Neither the KTA, WTF, nor Kukkiwon, published any known text on THEIR uniquely Korean art (Taekwon-Do) until almost two decades after the original text by General Choi on the art of Taekwon-Do.

This is not correct. I believe Gen Choi's first edition of his Textbook was in 1965, correct? (My textbook is the second edition, in 1975, but it states 1st edition was in 1972-I believe there was a previous text, it is my understanding it was printed in 1965 and contained the Pyung-Ahn hyung, not the Chang Hon tul). I also understand that GM LEE, Won Kuk of the Chung Do Kwan wrote a text, "Taekwondo Kyobon" in 1968 containing the earliest Taeguek series and the yudanja poomsae as well.

Regardless of whether Gen Choi published in 1965 or 1972, I have a book published by the World Taekwondo Federation in 1975 called "Taekwondo (Poomse)." Since the WTF only came about in 1973, I think that is pretty timely to get a book translated into English. And it is only 8 yrs after Gen Choi's book with the Pyung Ahn hyung and 1 yr after his Textbook. However, there may have been books written in Hangul before the Poomse book was published. But it was was nowhere near two decades after Gen Choi's book as you have stated.

3. Provided documentation when read in full will plainly show that the term Taekwon-Do as well as the original forms (both coined by Choi) were not accepted among the kwans as they prefered the term Tae Soo Do and the Pyong Ahn Hyungs (Heian Katas of Shotokan) as well as other pre-existing patterns developed for other arts.

I am not sure what you are saying or asking here? Are you asking me to provide documentation or saying that you have done so?

Assuming it is the former.....
In 1959, Gen Choi was President of the Korea Taekwondo Association but that organization folded during the political turmoil in 3/61 in which there was a coup d'etat by General Park, Chung Hee.

On 9/16/1961 the Korea Tae Soo Do Association was formed with Colonel Nam Tae Hi representing the Oh Do Kwan. Several notable 1st generation instructors: Gen Choi, Hwang Kee, Dr. Yoon (Jidokwan), and Ro, Byung Jik (Sang Moo Kwan) opted to not participate. At the meeting, Colonel Nam and GM UHM, Woon Kyu (Chung Do Kwan) tried to get the name "Taekwondo" accepted but were unsuccessful.

On 8/5/1965, the name of the same group was changed to the Korea Taekwondo Association. The ITF was formed on 3/22/1966. So the term "Taekwondo" was accepted by the Kwans before the ITF was formed.

The quote I provided previously stated that essentially Shotokan kata and Gen Choi's Tul were used at the earliest Dan Promotional exam. I am not (conceding or denying that Gen Choi's series pre-date the KTA's Committees to create the "unified poomsae."

Since he did not seek anyone else's cooperation, I am sure it was easier for him to create his tul. It is always more difficult to do things by Committee but the KTA sought to bring the various Kwans together-anyone of the Kwan Jang could have done what Gen. Choi did.

Being that I was hoping for debate, I will humby request subjective analysis of my post and more specific replies as opposed to generalizations that fail to directly address my posts!

Am I doing better?

Miles

 

[47MartialMan]

But the thrwad states:
Who is the Founder of TKD...

Not what influenced or history of...

So can a founder be one that organized and got it going?