Who gets to change a kata or technique…

[AIKIKENJITSU]

I was reading a post “Understanding the TSD Seisan and Changes”. There was post there about changing a kata to fit ones needs and I started thinking, who gets to change a particular arts katas or techniques? Is it ever considered corruption or is it just evolution? Can only GM Alcuizar change Eskrido de Alcuizar or Yip Man change WC or GM Jung Oh Hwang change HD? We don’t do katas in our art, but when you change a kata is it still that kata? Folks might say it is “in essence”, but is that true? What’s your take?

I have black belts in Tracy Kenpo and American Kenpo. I have taught "my" version of American Kenpo for fifty years.

I was reading a post “Understanding the TSD Seisan and Changes”. There was post there about changing a kata to fit ones needs and I started thinking, who gets to change a particular arts katas or techniques? Is it ever considered corruption or is it just evolution? Can only GM Alcuizar change Eskrido de Alcuizar or Yip Man change WC or GM Jung Oh Hwang change HD? We don’t do katas in our art, but when you change a kata is it still that kata? Folks might say it is “in essence”, but is that true? What’s your take?

Once you're a black belt, the art is yours. I studied up to black belt in Tracy Kenpo and American Kenpo. I then threw out all the forms. I do not like forms. In Kenpo, in my opinion, the techniques are like mini forms anyway. After twenty years of teaching just adults, i sat down and shorten all the techniques. Many were just too repetitive. I just teach adults and my students loved the shorten techniques.
When you're a black belt, or a Sifu, I consider the forms and techs mine and I'll adjust anyway I want. I personally feel that I have improved the art, since my students like what I did.
Therefore, if you want to shorten even the forms, if you're a black belt, go ahead and make yourself happy!
Sifu
Puyallup, WA

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Someone changed

- bicycle into motorcycle.
- horse wagon into car.
- DOS into WINDOW.
- pager into cell phone.
- ...

Which one is better?

IMO, if you have never changed your form, you are just a good copy machine. You have no contribution to the MA world.

 

[Steve]

Speaking to the OP, I don't know who gets to change kata, but with regards to technique, that's going to happen whether you want it to or not. Everyone who uses techniques will change them and adapt them for a number of reasons in order to make them work. Watch 10 different people do the same armbar, and you will be able to point out a bunch of things that are common and a bunch of things that are different. If you're doing it right, it works... and if it works, you're doing it right.

It's like cooking. You might be making gumbo, and for it to be a gumbo it needs to meet certain criteria. But I've never heard of two people making gumbo exactly the same way. But success is in the bowl.

Bigger picture, this question, not competition or self defense or anything else, is really what will determine whether your style is a TMA or not. In my opinion.

 

[Flying Crane]

IMO, if you have never changed your form, you are just a good copy machine. You have no contribution to the MA world.

Well no, this is clearly not true. First, that alone certainly does not make you nothing but a copy machine. Second, there are many other ways to measure whether or not you have made a contribution to the martial arts world. And let’s be honest, there is no requirement to do so.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Well no, this is clearly not true. First, that alone certainly does not make you nothing but a copy machine. Second, there are many other ways to measure whether or not you have made a contribution to the martial arts world. And let’s be honest, there is no requirement to do so.

You may use DOS all your life. You are still just a DOS user.

 

[Flying Crane]

You may use DOS all your life. You are still just a DOS user.

Ok, this is really no kind of comparison at all. If I kick the living ***** out of everyone who ever tried to mug me, but I never alter one of my forms, I am a failure? Just a “copy machine?” C’mon man, you know this is nonsense.

One does not need to make a contribution to the world of MA. Perhaps One never teaches, never passes it along to another generation, just keeps what he has learned to himself, yet effectively use it when there are no other options. So He hasn’t “contributed”. So what? There is no requirement, and it in no way lessons one’s practice.

 

[isshinryuronin]

IMO, if you have never changed your form, you are just a good copy machine.

More important than changing a traditional form is changing HOW you execute that form.

My form's execution has changed over the years. My increased understanding of the form's technique and how to use my body in that context to best execute the technique's goals, has led to my current forms looking (and feeling) much different than even a decade ago. Yes, the forms have been tweaked a little (2%) but the moves as I originally learned them are all there - only the way I do them has changed. The words are the same, but my accent is not.

When in another part of the English speaking regions, people have a tendency to copy the local accent, whether it be Cockney, The Bronx, or the Deep South. The result is they sound sort of stupid. So, there are things we are meant not to copy. I wasn't meant to copy my sensei's way of doing a side kick, aside from following proper mechanics. Bill Wallace, Chuck Norris and Joe Lewis all had great side kicks, and each was different.

We are not so much a vehicle to change the form, but rather the form is a vehicle to change us. Self-change is the type of change that counts most IMO. I've got plenty to work on there, without trying to change and second guess a master's traditional form. I'll leave that to them.

 

[skribs]

Someone changed

- bicycle into motorcycle.
- horse wagon into car.
- DOS into WINDOW.
- pager into cell phone.
- ...

Which one is better?

IMO, if you have never changed your form, you are just a good copy machine. You have no contribution to the MA world.

There's also a phrase: Don't Reinvent the Wheel. Mythbusters even tried it. They put square wheels on a truck, and it worked pretty horribly.

 

[Steve]

Ok, this is really no kind of comparison at all. If I kick the living ***** out of everyone who ever tried to mug me, but I never alter one of my forms, I am a failure? Just a “copy machine?” C’mon man, you know this is nonsense.

One does not need to make a contribution to the world of MA. Perhaps One never teaches, never passes it along to another generation, just keeps what he has learned to himself, yet effectively use it when there are no other options. So He hasn’t “contributed”. So what? There is no requirement, and it in no way lessons one’s practice.

Hold on. Is fighting important now? Just trying to keep up here.

 

[Steve]

There's also a phrase: Don't Reinvent the Wheel. Mythbusters even tried it. They put square wheels on a truck, and it worked pretty horribly.

Are you saying the wheels on your car have never been reinvented? are they same as the wheels on a wagon? Or even the same as on similar cars from 30 years ago? I think any similarity they have is fairly superficial.

there’s also the possibility that reinventing the wheel might be valuable, but mythbusters just did it poorly.
There was an episode of top gear or their follow on show where one of them took the wheels off the car and put an entirely new tread system on it. Worked surprisingly well. I’d say he reinvented the wheel better than mythbusters.

Point is, with changes, failure could indicate that the idea is not sound. Could also be execution… a good idea poorly done .

 

[Martial D]

I was reading a post “Understanding the TSD Seisan and Changes”. There was post there about changing a kata to fit ones needs and I started thinking, who gets to change a particular arts katas or techniques? Is it ever considered corruption or is it just evolution? Can only GM Alcuizar change Eskrido de Alcuizar or Yip Man change WC or GM Jung Oh Hwang change HD? We don’t do katas in our art, but when you change a kata is it still that kata? Folks might say it is “in essence”, but is that true? What’s your take?

My take...

My take is that way too much mystery and almost ..worship..is shown to these martial artists of antiquity. Do we still drive model T Ford's? No ..the science and technology keeps advancing..changing.. bettering.

But with martial arts ..for some...puzzling.. reason...many believe the penultimate was just nailed x hundred years ago and should remain frozen there forever because it's the ultimate truth.

Who can change Kata or forms? That depends if you view your martial art as something more akin to science, or something more akin to religion.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I have black belts in Tracy Kenpo and American Kenpo. I have taught "my" version of American Kenpo for fifty years.

That isn't what you said earlier...
You said you had earned a Blue belt under Tracy and a Brown under Parker. You then self-promoted to 10th Dan. By your own statement, your highest earned rank is Brown belt.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There are

- DOS creator (those who creates a form).
- DOS users (those who trains the original form).
- WINDOW creator (those who changes a form).
- WINDOW users (those who trains the changed form).

A DOS user should not say that the WINDOW users use the "not pure OS".

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Daisy wheel printer was the best printer until the inkjet printer came out. Change is always good.

 

[Flying Crane]

Daisy wheel printer was the best printer until the inkjet printer came out. Change is always good.

View attachment 27848

Once again, blanket statements and absolutes are unlikely to be true. Context usually matters.

 

[Unkogami]

... Change is always good.

Really? Remember New Coke?

 

[Steve]

Really? Remember New Coke?

New coke was fine, but they underestimated the power of sentimentality. Not too long ago, Kraft changed the formula for their cheese powder. They did it smart, though… didn’t tell anyone for several months. By the time they announced the change, people had to admit they didn’t really notice. I guess the point is, the change might be good, but how you do it matters.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Really? Remember New Coke?

May be I should say. "Change that will last is always good."

Both IBM 5520 Administrative System and IBM Displaywriter system were good. But it didn't last long.

 

[Steve]

May be I should say. "Change that will last is always good."

Both IBM 5520 Administrative System and IBM Displaywriter system were good. But it didn't last long.

Amigas were good too.

 

[dvcochran]

May be I should say. "Change that will last is always good."

Both IBM 5520 Administrative System and IBM Displaywriter system were good. But it didn't last long.

You are really showing your age with all these old printer references!