Which bottle is best?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Bill Mattocks, Nov 2, 2019.

  1. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    Back in the seventies I trained a little with a guy, Joe F, that had studied under Shimabuku. Joe was incredibly difficult to spar with, very talented, very strong and very different. His stance was unlike any Okinawan stylist I had met before or since. It was more like a Capoeira/Kung Fu corkscrew stance. When I say "corkscrew" I mean with right leg back and left hand forward.

    I asked him several times about his stance and who taught it to him. He always said "Shimabuku". I'm not really sure if it was Tatsuo or Eizo. When I mentioned it was different than Okinawan stances I had been exposed to he always said "Shimabuku taught a lot of different things and trained people differently." He also mentioned that Shimubuku frequently did his Katas differently, changing them up at times.

    I wish I could remember more about this, it was pretty cool.
     
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  2. geezer

    geezer Grandmaster

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    Good Lord, Jobo, that's my pathetic life you're describing.

    Right now I'm wasting a beautiful Sunday afternoon down here at the high school (where I teach ceramics arts) considering the aesthetics of, and giving grades to a table of wheel-thrown ceramic bottles, many of which indeed appear to be made by the "educationally sub-normal" :(.

    If Shimabuku could have seen some of these babies, he would never have asked his students that question! :D
     
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  3. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    I'd love to know more about this stance you are referring to.
     
  4. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    Some are not the best at sparring. Some are not the best at kata. Some are not the best at teaching. Some have self-defense skills that some might consider lacking. Some find inner peace and a way of life in martial arts, some see it as a means to an end. Some just find it good exercise. Which one is the 'best'? Which one is the 'worst'?

    In the end, the grave awaits us all, not to put too fine a point on it. How we choose to spend our limited time and resources between now and then is up to us. We find what we are good at, we find what we like to do, we find what enriches our inner person, and we practice that. I'm an imperfect vessel, but I'm not a bad bottle. I suck at a huge number of things; maybe one or two things I can do well, or at least, with pleasure and enthusiasm. Shall I give up because I'm not the best bottle?
     
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  5. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    Well said.
     
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  6. geezer

    geezer Grandmaster

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    A philosophy to live by.
     
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  7. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    I wish I could remember more. It was one of the first times I was frustrated, really frustrated, trying to spar a guy. And the guy, Joe, was one of those very quiet people that didn't say much, which kind of rattled me at the time.

    I've been around a lot of Okinawan Karate in my day, know a lot of Okinawan stylists, I even have a Lifetime Achievement award in Uechi Ryu. And you know what? Ain't no two guys the same. They've kicked my backside with different stances, different attacks, different everything.

    I've found that there are some schools in every conceivable style where if you fought one guy, you fought them all, you could kind of blueprint them, they would all be the same. But I find those schools to be in the minority. Most guys I know, including Okinawan stylists, all move differently. And, man, I know some savagely good fighters in Okinawan Karate. Nice people, but seriously scary dudes, I'm glad they're friends. :)

    But that guy, Joe, he moved, and stood, differently than anyone I've ever worked with. Sorry I couldn't describe it better or have pics or something.
     
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  8. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    You're not referring to kosa-dachi, are you?

    Google Image Result for https://i.ytimg.com/vi/HLc910Gtgic/maxresdefault.jpg

    It's about the only stance we commonly use in Isshinryu that I could see described as a corkscrew kind of stance. It's employed in several of our kata, notably Chinto and Sunsu. Strong stance for certain applications. I have experimented with sparring out of it, didn't find it that useful, except that I scored a point in a tournament with it, throwing a front snap kick that was well hidden by my lead leg, so the opponent didn't see it coming. But it's hard to move around in for me. Kind of a 'stand and deliver' kind of stance.
     
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  9. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Senior Master

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    but the problem was not the bottles. it wasnt the turd that changed the industry. it was the fact that people preferred the turds to bottles. they had a unique shape and the bottles they thought they were buying were only being used to sit on a book shelf and look "unique", they were not being used to hold stuff in. so in that view they served their purpose better than the original bottles.
     
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  10. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    Well I'll be....if you lowered Kosa-dachi about a foot towards the floor, that would be in in a nutshell. And, man, he could seriously move from that stance.

    It's crazy the stuff I continue to learn here. I'll be thinking about this all day at work. Thanks, Bill, really good stuff.

    Martial Arts is just nuts!
     
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  11. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    The primary purpose of that stance, in my understanding, is to resist a pulling motion, or to uncoil and deliver a blow assisted by the rotating motion of the hips (seen in Wansu kata). It is also a strong stance for overhead blocks. I would love to have seen this person move well in that stance. Not to say he couldn't, but I can't think of a good way to do it, so it would be a learning experience.
     
  12. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    He used our dojo for a year or two. He never took any classes at that school, just used the floor to work out on before and after classes, and occasionally spared with people. I was in my twenties, he was probably in his early forties, he was more experienced and a better Martial Artist than I was. But it was the only stance I ever saw him work out of.

    He kind of moved like this, except he never had his legs that far apart, bent at the waist, did any flips or touched the floor. (He touched the floor when he was stretching before class, but never when he was moving) He also moved in a more circular way.

     
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  13. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Master of Arts

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    I think the issue with the question "what is the best X?" is as follows:

    "Best" is the superlative form of "good".

    "Good" is a quality assigned to something based on a set of criteria that are subjective.

    There are questions that need to be answered regarding those criteria before they can begin to be considered as to how far they are met. Otherwise both "good" and "best" will be utterly inconsistent depending on the subject person.

    This is particularly true for MA as it represents a personal journey, making it deeply subjective.

    Two people will never be able to agree on "good" or "best" unless their subjective criteria for those qualities are the same - which in MA is highly unlikely as everyone has different reasons for practising in the first place.

    A more meaningful question would be "which bottle meets the subjective criteria I have formed to help me reach my personal goals?"

    A more useful question would be "What are my subjective criteria and are they consciously chosen?"

    Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
     
  14. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Maby silat or one of those variants.
     
  15. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    Yeah, maybe. He had said his only training was under Shimabuku. But he was saying this in our American Karate dojo. So, I dunno'.
     
  16. isshinryuronin

    isshinryuronin Blue Belt

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    See what you started Bill?
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
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  17. isshinryuronin

    isshinryuronin Blue Belt

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    I would call this kosa dachi a special application stance, not meant as a main stance (but who knows?) Congratulations on using it effectively in kumite - it does present an unorthodox look. The corkscrew twist generates a lot of power for pulling in with the hand going back during the twist and for striking with the hand ending in the front. But, I discovered another major use for this stance

    I came across a quote from Hanshin Kinjo Hiroshi that stated when the legs are crossed in a kata, as in kosa dachi, it is indicative of a throw. In Sunsu kata this can be seen when, before the double punches, you grab the opponent's arms and corkscrew to the left, crossing his arms into an arm bar. This can put enough pressure to take him down, and if not, the kata follows the twist with a blade kick (soba geri) to the knee, finishing the job. After being enlightened by Hanshin Kinjo's observation, I reviewed my kata's to check this bunkai out, and did find most times the legs are crossed, a throw is very close by.
     
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  18. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    I understand that this stance is also used by Judoka to throw. I am not a Judoka, but this is what I have read. It would seem to me that it would work very well for this.
     
  19. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    I just felt a wave of nostalgia for my old capoeira days. That stuff is all fundamentals. I could never do the back handspring nor the backflip, but all the rest of those examples were in my toolbox. Good times, it was.123
     
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