Which bottle is best?

[Bill Mattocks]

Tatsuo Shimabuku asked his students which, of an assembled group of bottles, was the best. Some picked the largest, some the smallest, some picked the most decorative, etc.

Shimabuku responded that there is no best bottle. Each is best according to what it was designed to do.

Shimabuku - Isshinryu Karate

 

[jobo]

Tatsuo Shimabuku asked his students which, of an assembled group of bottles, was the best. Some picked the largest, some the smallest, some picked the most decorative, etc.

Shimabuku responded that there is no best bottle. Each is best according to what it was designed to do.

Shimabuku - Isshinryu Karate

and what were they designed to do ? apart from hold things

its asking question like that that gives tma a bad name, today we are going to discuss the design capabilities of bottles,,, but cant we just hit thing said the students with a collective sigh

 

[Flying Crane]

The one containing Nikka Coffey Grain Japanese whiskey would be the best.

 

[JowGaWolf]

and what were they designed to do ? apart from hold things

its asking question like that that gives tma a bad name, today we are going to discuss the design capabilities of bottles,,, but cant we just hit thing said the students with a collective sigh

I like it. The point isn't about the bottle. The bottle is irrelevant to "lesson". It's about the perspective from what we view things from. Anything could have been used to convey the lesson. For example:

"Tatsuo Shimabuku asked his students which, of an assembled group of martial arts system, was the best. Some picked the largest, some the smallest, some picked the most decorative, etc.

Shimabuku responded that there is no best martial arts system. Each is best according to what it was designed to do."

If you don't like to use martial arts systems, then change it to something else. Which is group of cars is the best or maybe which group of schools is the best.. While it would be easy to just come out and say what was on his mind. Using bottles keeps it simple and invites the listener to think. This is just my thoughts on the statement. Critical thinking is lacking these days, so stuff like this is fresh air to me

 

[Deleted member 39746]

I like it. The point isn't about the bottle. The bottle is irrelevant to "lesson". It's about the perspective from what we view things from. Anything could have been used to convey the lesson. For example:

"Tatsuo Shimabuku asked his students which, of an assembled group of martial arts system, was the best. Some picked the largest, some the smallest, some picked the most decorative, etc.

Shimabuku responded that there is no best martial arts system. Each is best according to what it was designed to do."

If you don't like to use martial arts systems, then change it to something else. Which is group of cars is the best or maybe which group of schools is the best.. While it would be easy to just come out and say what was on his mind. Using bottles keeps it simple and invites the listener to think. This is just my thoughts on the statement. Critical thinking is lacking these days, so stuff like this is fresh air to me

but the glaring issue there is, some are just outright bad. So if it is taken to be analogous to a bottle, some are indeed objectively better for their purposes than others and some are just god awful, even for their purposes.

edit: I personally don't know why thats considered a taboo thing to say for martial arts. thankfully thats changing.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

but the glaring issue there is, some are just outright bad. So if it is taken to be analogous to a bottle, some are indeed objectively better for their purposes than others and some are just god awful, even for their purposes.

edit: I personally don't know why thats considered a taboo thing to say for martial arts. thankfully thats changing.

Some appear to be outright bad. They may have attributes which make them better than one thinks.

 

[drop bear]

Exept for the one student who mistook a dog turd for a bottle. That guy, no matter how hard he tried, couldn't make the best out of his choice.

 

[Martial D]

Exept for the one student who mistook a dog turd for a bottle. That guy, no matter how hard he tried, couldn't make the best out of his choice.

And it wasn't just one guy! It turns out many people were being fooled by dog turds, and in turn, sold them to others. Pretty soon the entire bottle industry was a turdfest.

 

[jobo]

I like it. The point isn't about the bottle. The bottle is irrelevant to "lesson". It's about the perspective from what we view things from. Anything could have been used to convey the lesson. For example:

"Tatsuo Shimabuku asked his students which, of an assembled group of martial arts system, was the best. Some picked the largest, some the smallest, some picked the most decorative, etc.

Shimabuku responded that there is no best martial arts system. Each is best according to what it was designed to do."

If you don't like to use martial arts systems, then change it to something else. Which is group of cars is the best or maybe which group of schools is the best.. While it would be easy to just come out and say what was on his mind. Using bottles keeps it simple and invites the listener to think. This is just my thoughts on the statement. Critical thinking is lacking these days, so stuff like this is fresh air to me

buT what lesson ? that things are designed with different purposes, comparing say a porsche and a truck can only leave you to the fairly obvious conclusion that one is distinctly better than the other for moving 5 ton of bricks. how stupid do you need to be to fail to have noticed that all on your own.

or that two liter bottles are much better at holding a liter of liquid than a pint bottle. its not critical thinking its stating the blatantly obvious and should not be part of a ma class, unless the class is for the educationally sub normal that need to be told that sort of thing. its the TMA thing of talking in riddles to try and make its sound deep and meaningful

on the point that you and he was trying to make, perhaps ? then no, ma are not equal in quality, but designed for different purposes. some are considerably better than others, because some have significant design or application flaws that make them unsuitable for any purpose that is martial, t

o use your analogy its like a bottle that keeps leaking its precious contents away, then when you decided to use it there is nothing of value left. it may be nice to look at, but what person of sound mind spends their day admiring the aesthetic qualities of liquid containers or martial arts

 

[Danny T]

buT what lesson ? that things are designed with different purposes, comparing say a porsche and a truck can only leave you to the fairly obvious conclusion that one is distinctly better than the other for moving 5 ton of bricks. how stupid do you need to be to fail to have noticed that all on your own.

or that two liter bottles are much better at holding a liter of liquid than a pint bottle. its not critical thinking its stating the blatantly obvious and should not be part of a ma class, unless the class is for the educationally sub normal that need to be told that sort of thing. its the TMA thing of talking in riddles to try and make its sound deep and meaningful

on the point that you and he was trying to make, perhaps ? then no, ma are not equal in quality, but designed for different purposes. some are considerably better than others, because some have significant design or application flaws that make them unsuitable for any purpose that is martial, t

o use your analogy its like a bottle that keeps leaking its precious contents away, then when you decided to use it there is nothing of value left. it may be nice to look at, but what person of sound mind spends their day admiring the aesthetic qualities of liquid containers or martial arts

And hence the lesson is disregarded by those who need it the most.

 

[jobo]

And hence the lesson is disregarded by those who need it the most.

see what i mean about saying things that are really silly and trying to make it sound profound. its like TMAers have had their ability to talk in straight forward terms surgically remove

but go one explain what area of my life would be enhanced if i were to learn this lesson.

 

[Headhunter]

but the glaring issue there is, some are just outright bad. So if it is taken to be analogous to a bottle, some are indeed objectively better for their purposes than others and some are just god awful, even for their purposes.

edit: I personally don't know why thats considered a taboo thing to say for martial arts. thankfully thats changing.

Yeah but you can't know what's really good and bad by reading articles and watching YouTube....gotta actually go to class for that I'm afraid

 

[Headhunter]

see what i mean about saying things that are really silly and trying to make it sound profound. its like TMAers have had their ability to talk in straight forward terms surgically remove

but go one explain what area of my life would be enhanced if i were to learn this lesson.

I think everyone just knows that trying to discuss anything with you is a waste of time

 

[JowGaWolf]

buT what lesson ? that things are designed with different purposes, comparing say a porsche and a truck can only leave you to the fairly obvious conclusion that one is distinctly better than the other for moving 5 ton of bricks. how stupid do you need to be to fail to have noticed that all on your own.

I'll let you answer this question on your own. Take a look at today's society and how many things should be obvious to people but isn't. How many students and martial arts masters believed that they could learn how to fight without actually sparring? While somethings like a sports car vs a truck are easier and obvious, other things are not. Like when is front kick better than a side kick or a round house. When is a left punch better than a right punch. When is reading a physical newspaper better than reading a digital version of the same news paper? I can guarantee that some people won't have any answers for some of this, but others will. The difference is that those who have answers, probably have some decent critical thinking skills and can think outside of a box.

For example, to think outside of the box of which bottle is better. One may go beyond it's intended use. If you had to pick a bottle for survival purposes which one would you take. A plastic one or a glass one of the same size? If you had to choose a bottle to take on a road trip, which one would you choose? Some would limit their choice believing that you can only take one bottle. Other's like me who really don't like "Either Or" will just say, "I'll take both." Even if I don't know how it will come in handy I will have have both for when the time comes.

The one thing that I always have to do in Martial Arts is to think, figure stuff out, and think beyond what was taught to me. I see others who train the same thing and they never understand a martial arts application beyond what was taught. Critical thinking skills are not as elementary as one may think. It's like any other skill, it doesn't come naturally and one must always train it in order to keep it functional.

Things like this probably come very easy to you because you like to debate for the sake of debating and that requires you to think about things from different angles, perspectives, and validity. Most people don't get beyond "2 outcomes" of thought.

To bring things back to martial arts training. When I was training students how to spar and use Jow Ga technqiues, I would often lecture them about their approach. My favorite question was. "What are you trying to do and what is your goal?" This is a very simple straight forward question and I always got a puzzled look. I also never got an answer beyond "I'm trying to do hit or kick the person" This type of reply always told me that the student have an technique in mind when sparring and because of that they weren't actively trying to understand how to use a technique. They never thought beyond "step 1." Step 2 would have been "What technique do I want use to hit or kick them with." Martial arts application training truly begins at Step 2. At step 1 you can pick up a brick to satisfy that goal.

So for me. Critical thinking is valuable in fighting because things always change in a fight. Knowing how think, adapt, and read the situation are vital.

 

[JowGaWolf]

but the glaring issue there is, some are just outright bad. So if it is taken to be analogous to a bottle, some are indeed objectively better for their purposes than others and some are just god awful, even for their purposes.

That is still in line with the OP's statement and the value of it. So when you look at a bottle example and you say that this bottle is best used for.... The question becomes what determines that? The maker of the bottle? Is the maker of the bottle only telling you that because they want to sell bottles or is the maker of the bottle telling you that because he or she has put in the time and development to make sure that the bottle truly designed for it's intended purpose.

If a person gave me a plastic survival bottle and they said that the bottle can save my life if I'm lost in the woods. Is this true because he says so. Was the bottle truly designed for survival in mind. Can I boil water in this plastic bottle? So while one person is telling me that the intended use is "Use A" my questions would clearly show otherwise. So through my questioning I can come to the conclusion that the "intended use" is not based on survival, but probably sales.

 

[jobo]

I think everyone just knows that trying to discuss anything with you is a waste of time

+for someone who claims they don't want to indulge in conversation with me, you have a really strange habit of starting conversations with me

which mean either you really do or you have remarkably weak impulse control

 

[JowGaWolf]

buT what lesson ?

I forgot to answer this. The lesson is going to change depending on what the focus is, cars vs bottles, vs underwear. The exercise is a thinking exercise to get people to beyond "What is best" by understanding intent of use that we have in mind. Back to the bottles example, The bottle that you choose may vary depending on your intended use. In terms of using it as a weapon, non of the bottles were designed as a weapon but one may make a better weapon than the others to serve your intended use. But in order to pick the right one, you not only have to understand your intended use, but you also have to have some understanding about the bottle's make up. A bottle with a long neck may at first seem like the best use, but if it a thin bottle then it may not be the best use for you.

Picking what is right for you in this scenario would require a deeper understanding of the bottle, beyond the intended use that you were told. In TMA we are often taught a technique from a defensive perspective which makes the technique extremely difficult to use as an attack. But a deeper understanding of that same technique make it possible to use is as an easy to do attack.

Some people like the short sayings while others don't like to think and figure it out. In my religion I often wish I would just get the short answer instead of being put through "life's tests, ups and downs, and hardships." before learning the answer. But then I think of how much I now know because of life's test, ups and downs, and hardships. Even though I went through all of that for a simple answer. The journey has made me a stronger and sometimes bitter person than what I would have been if I was just given the answer.

Sometimes traveling the path of gaining the answer is just as important or more important than just having a simple straight forward answer. Based on human behavior, I would say that it's natural for use to resist the short simple answer. I know when I give a short simple answer here, I end up having to do a lot of explaining, making videos, and breaking things down, just to explain something that I thought was a short answer.

I'm not the only that goes through this. Look what has become of short statement that was posted by the OP and look at all that is going through it because Jobo didn't simply say. "I don't like it". I'm not putting you on the spot. I do the same from time to time. I just think it's simple human nature. Besides. If we always accepted a short answer then no one would actually think.

 

[jobo]

I forgot to answer this. The lesson is going to change depending on what the focus is, cars vs bottles, vs underwear. The exercise is a thinking exercise to get people to beyond "What is best" by understanding intent of use that we have in mind. Back to the bottles example, The bottle that you choose may vary depending on your intended use. In terms of using it as a weapon, non of the bottles were designed as a weapon but one may make a better weapon than the others to serve your intended use. But in order to pick the right one, you not only have to understand your intended use, but you also have to have some understanding about the bottle's make up. A bottle with a long neck may at first seem like the best use, but if it a thin bottle then it may not be the best use for you.

Picking what is right for you in this scenario would require a deeper understanding of the bottle, beyond the intended use that you were told. In TMA we are often taught a technique from a defensive perspective which makes the technique extremely difficult to use as an attack. But a deeper understanding of that same technique make it possible to use is as an easy to do attack.

Some people like the short sayings while others don't like to think and figure it out. In my religion I often wish I would just get the short answer instead of being put through "life's tests, ups and downs, and hardships." before learning the answer. But then I think of how much I now know because of life's test, ups and downs, and hardships. Even though I went through all of that for a simple answer. The journey has made me a stronger and sometimes bitter person than what I would have been if I was just given the answer.

Sometimes traveling the path of gaining the answer is just as important or more important than just having a simple straight forward answer. Based on human behavior, I would say that it's natural for use to resist the short simple answer. I know when I give a short simple answer here, I end up having to do a lot of explaining, making videos, and breaking things down, just to explain something that I thought was a short answer.

I'm not the only that goes through this. Look what has become of short statement that was posted by the OP and look at all that is going through it because Jobo didn't simply say. "I don't like it". I'm not putting you on the spot. I do the same from time to time. I just think it's simple human nature. Besides. If we always accepted a short answer then no one would actually think.

jobo didn't say ' i don't like it' jobo said ' its complete nonsense wrapped up in a riddle pretending to be a profound understanding of the world. if the message had any value, then it should be conveyed in a way that's clear and not about a biaze bottle choice scenario, the students should have said '' talk sense man'' and ' stop wasting our time talking in riddles ;''that would indeed have been critical thinking on their part

that the anecdotes made no mention of this happening, its fairly clear there was little critical thinking going on. because critical thinking includes challenging what authority figures tell you is so

 

[JowGaWolf]

jobo didn't say ' i don't like it' jobo said ' its complete nonsense wrapped up in a riddle pretending to be a profound understanding of the world.

Yeah that's why you should have just kept it simple and stated "I don't like it" lol.

When I read the message I didn't see it as something that was profound. It was more like a gentle reminder that allowed me to come an answer.

The students could have said "talk sense to me." but I would have told them. "Learn to think and analyze. Do you think your enemy will make his intentions of attack clear? When your enemy punches in your face, do you think he will make it clear to you how he was able to do so. Learn to think. Learn to analyze. All answers are not simply just given in a straight forward manner."

because critical thinking includes challenging what authority figures tell you is so

While this is true, this cannot always be the first response. As it would mean that you have not taken the time to analyze what was said. Not everything in life will be explained in simple terms as one would explain it to a child. Life is complex and often times there is never just one answer. Answers may change depending on the scenario and the per person in the scenario. The answer for scenario A may be different for me at the Age of 20 than at the age of 47.

Fighting is like that. My solution or Answer for Scenario A is most likely not the same solution for you. Both are solutions, but only your solution works for people like you, and my solution works for people like me. If your first response is to shoot something down because it's not wrapped in a simple package, then you'll miss out on a lot of things in life.

I would only shoot down the ideas of an Authority figure if I have honest given some thought about what was said while taken into the context of the responsibilities that the Authority figure has. It's easy to reject something when we do not have the same responsibilities and limitations that an Authority figure has. Sort of like the "walk a mile in my shoes" saying.

In the U.S. there is a movement to challenge the Political and Government norms. People are getting into it. But all I hear is emptiness. So if we get to the point where we don't pay Federal Taxes then how do we support the responsibilities that a federal government has to it's citizens.

If you challenge your teacher, then what options do you have left to learn from your teacher. So many people talk about "challenging the authority" but never think of what happens next after the deed is done.

 

[Headhunter]

+for someone who claims they don't want to indulge in conversation with me, you have a really strange habit of starting conversations with me

which mean either you really do or you have remarkably weak impulse control

Ok