Where On The Scale of Spirituality...?

[MartialIntent]

I think martial arts cultivates the spirit. This can be good, bad, or somewhere in between. It is a very personal thing and I don't think it can be taught, it just comes along with the training. We don't talk about it or try to teach it (as far as I know).

It's unfortunate that it is often swept under the mats or disregarded altogether because in those spiritual aspects of our practise, I feel there lie many rewards for us students.

I know where you're coming from though. This is the real world and normally spirituality in our arts is seen as "soft" or coming a distant second behind step-through side-kicks etc...

Respects!

 

[MartialIntent]

I think it would be a hard thing to discuss without putting off a lot of people. On the other hand an instructor can push people past there previous limits, and get them taking down larger people. Those that will find this a spiritual experience still will, and those that won't aren't going to get put off by speeches about how they could.

Resources can be provided, a list of reading materials, be open to discuss it with anyone that is interested, but I wouldn't spend class time on it.

From my experience, many folk do exactly what you're saying and go outside the dojo to continue their researches. I think it's a shame that we can't provide anything more than passing remarks or book advice to interested students. After all, if a student asked for help with a tech, would we suggest an appropriate publication from Amazon? Or would we roll up our cuffs and begin?

I think maybe there's a lack of confidence in our own knowledge [I'm speaking personally] of the spiritual side of our arts - and that's simply because no one pointed it out or showed us the way either. Somewhere perhaps, has the verve for spirituality displayed by the founding fathers of our arts, become lost in translation as it's been passed down through the years to our individual schools?

Or are we really no longer interested?

What do you think?

Respects!

 

[Andrew Green]

After all, if a student asked for help with a tech, would we suggest an appropriate publication from Amazon? Or would we roll up our cuffs and begin?

You can go beyond that, stay late after class and have a chat, head to a lounge and do it over a beer....err.... I mean juice. But to do it durring class I think would be a mistake in a large school, in a smaller school you might be able to draw a targeted enough group of people to do it though.

Time is always an issue too, most people only spend 2-5 hours a week in a martial arts class, there is only so much you can do. And for most of them the reason they are there is the physical stuff, they are there to workout and get in shape, learn to fight, etc.

 

[Blindside]

MartialIntent,

I have a problem with your terminology, "spirituality" as you are using seems to denote greater self-awareness. I (and I suspect many other people) use "spirituality" as a knowledge or sense of something greater than ourselves, to be beyond just our own bodies into something bigger and greater in scale.

Has my martial arts made me more self-aware, absolutely, it is a vehicle to challenge my limits. Has it made me more spiritual, nope, not at all, of course, by my own definition, I'm not exactly a spiritually inclined person.

Lamont

 

[MartialIntent]

MartialIntent,

I have a problem with your terminology, "spirituality" as you are using seems to denote greater self-awareness. I (and I suspect many other people) use "spirituality" as a knowledge or sense of something greater than ourselves, to be beyond just our own bodies into something bigger and greater in scale.

Has my martial arts made me more self-aware, absolutely, it is a vehicle to challenge my limits. Has it made me more spiritual, nope, not at all, of course, by my own definition, I'm not exactly a spiritually inclined person.

Lamont

I appreciate your comments! For me [and it's just an opinion], that's venturing into the doctrines of more organised religion. I have no beliefs in the area of "something bigger" and if I did I would be keen to keep such beliefs out of the dojo. I'm talking purely of personal spirituality - by that I mean a greater knowledge and appreciation of oneself, who we are and the feats we're capable of.

I think these spiritual benefits often bestowed upon us through practice of our arts are often used as a bullet-point on the school website but don't hold up to further scrutiny ie. when a student seeks direction on their own journey or wishes to follow up.

Hope that makes sense...

Respects!

 

[MartialIntent]

You can go beyond that, stay late after class and have a chat, head to a lounge and do it over a beer....err.... I mean juice. But to do it durring class I think would be a mistake in a large school, in a smaller school you might be able to draw a targeted enough group of people to do it though.

Time is always an issue too, most people only spend 2-5 hours a week in a martial arts class, there is only so much you can do. And for most of them the reason they are there is the physical stuff, they are there to workout and get in shape, learn to fight, etc.

Time of course, is always against us! I think your idea of a targeted group is an excellent one. Schools could live with that and work it within their own frameworks [like a special class maybe?] I suppose finding appropriate mentors - [I think you're correct, teachers by implication is not the correct term - would need to be sought.

Very interesting post: got me thinking...

Respects!

 

[SAVAGE]

I fully understand where you're coming from though I think many of us still do associate "spirituality" with something only performed by sages / Tibetan monks etc... I know it's a matter of meaning but I think all of us who diligently practise our art gain insights into ourselves: our limits, our motivations, our strengths and physical capabilities, and I think through those realizations, we learn about who we are and what sort of person we are. For me at least, that is true personal spirituality and from that we gain enlightenment, not tapping a gong [no disrespect to gong-tappers of course!!]

What do you think?

Respects!

I agree to a great extent...but to me understanding self..is just that understanding self...and has nothing to do with soul..or the gong tappers!

I suppose in my mind they are as different as apples and oranges...mind you in the SAVAGE world (thats my world)...there is black and white and no shades of grey...it is or it isnt....that makes my life so much more simple!

But I must say good post!

 

[Touch Of Death]

That is not necessarily true... Sometimes it takes far more courage to do the RIGHT thing!

The more rightious you are inside the easier it becomes.
Sean

 

[MartialIntent]

Many thanks for all your input. Maybe I could ask another question based on an issue raised upthread...

Could the lack of *upfront* spirituality in our martial arts schools indicate we're in some ways afraid of it? And might this be because of a dearth of knowledge of our own personal spirituality?

Is the spirituality brought to most of our arts by the arts' creators a taboo subject nowadays? And does that mean we are we no longer deep spiritual martial artists with a martial purpose but superficial punching-machines? [devil's advocate]

Respects!

 

[Xue Sheng]

Many thanks for all your input. Maybe I could ask another question based on an issue raised upthread...

Could the lack of *upfront* spirituality in our martial arts schools indicate we're in some ways afraid of it? And might this be because of a dearth of knowledge of our own personal spirituality?

Is the spirituality brought to most of our arts by the arts' creators a taboo subject nowadays? And does that mean we are we no longer deep spiritual martial artists with a martial purpose but superficial punching-machines? [devil's advocate]

Respects!

No, it indicates it is not there or overtly there in the first place.

Before I begin, I am not angry and I am not attacking anyone, I am just stating what I believe

I have been trying to stay out of this post, but I tend to believe that it is this very attitude that is destroying Martial arts, it certainly has destroyed martial Tai Chi. It is watering it down and making it less of an actual martial art and more of a meditation/dance practice.

You are looking spirituality and martial arts from a western perspective and the majority of martial arts come from the eastern perspective. It appears to me that you are attempting to associate martial arts with religion and mysticism. Martial arts are a system of warfare not worship.

I have studied with 3 teachers from China one from Korea and one from the USA trained in Japan. I have talked with 2 other Chinese masters and a few other American masters and spirituality is never discussed, not because of fear but because it is not why they are there, it is not why they train and it is not what they teach, Spirituality never even entered into the training or discussion once.

If, from the eastern perspective it is there, it is simply there and that is it. You are there to learn martial arts not religion. And in general Eastern thinking does not separate things the way we do in the west.

The emphasis on apirituality, in my opinion, in martial arts is a product of the west.

As I understand spirituality, and it appears others in this post agree, it is a religious issue not a martial arts issue.

With that being said you should also be told I study "Traditional Chinese Internal Martial Arts" and I still do not refer to any part of it as spirituality.

I'm done now and I will return to silence
T

 

[Xue Sheng]

I feel I need to add one more thing.

If your interests are self-cultivation in the martial arts over warfare you should be looking to Japanese styles that are considered a Do.

Aikido, Karate Do, etc.

Stay away from Jitsu styles such as Jujitsu and Aikijitsu.

But I am willing to say; I still do not consider this Spirituality by my definition.

 

[MartialIntent]

I have been trying to stay out of this post, but I tend to believe that it is this very attitude that is destroying Martial arts, it certainly has destroyed martial Tai Chi. It is watering it down and making it less of an actual martial art and more of a meditation/dance practice.

You are looking spirituality and martial arts from a western perspective and the majority of martial arts come from the eastern perspective. It appears to me that you are attempting to associate martial arts with religion and mysticism. Martial arts are a system of warfare not worship.

Well, you got me there - I look at spirituality in the martial arts from a western perspective because that's the only perspective I have available to me: I live in the west, I train in the west and am largely a product of western society.

My attitude is that spirituality in the personal sense - and not some pseudo-religious universal mysticism - is available to each and every one of us who practise a martial art, whether it be traditional CMA, Okinawan, Korean, Filipino, of western-origin or any of the other fantastic modern arts we have available to us.


The two key problems that disallow discussion and proper dissemination of spirituality in our martial arts schools are to my mind 1. confusion and 2. fear.

1. Why, oh why do so many confuse spirituality in the martial arts with religion when spirituality concerns enlightenment and religion is about adherence to doctrine? I say it's because of the eastern traditions - the relentless permeation into our martial consciousness of the images of sages on isolated snowy mountaintops, the inheritance of the notion that we have to be as Bodidharma or Morehei Ueshiba or Mr. goddamn Miyagi to appreciate deeper knowledge through the arts and the notion that spirituality is somehow *beyond* what we as grass-roots martial artists are capable of - who's at fault is irrelevant, this lie has become a truth.


​

But for all that - as martial artists, PERSONAL spirituality IS achievable through practise of the art.

You would tell me that helping kids away from substance abuse by showing them another way in the dojo isn't a spiritual experience for those kids. I say, it is spiritual - it's as spiritual and enlightening and as great an injection of self-knowledge as anything I've ever seen in a church [and I've seen much] and yet it's NOT religion. Where I come from, nobody wants to hear preachers but nobody needs to preach in the dojo to reach this simple truth - it's in the physical application of the art, period and whether you call it spirituality matters not.

I maintain though, that we [instructors] neither discuss this in martial arts nor encourage individual's personal spiritual research in schools because we're deficient in knowledge of our own spirituality.

And that brings me to the second point...

2. A greater knowledge of who you are, what you can do and where you can be is available to you by the physical application of your martial art. But if students don't already know that, who's gonna tell them? Their instructor? Nope... Afraid. Students' conclusion? There is no spirituality in martial arts and we really are punching machines, but hey, we all love a superficial punching machine - *so* easy to train... [devil's advocate]

​

Respects!

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

The more rightious you are inside the easier it becomes.
Sean

I am compelled to disagree with this point, Sean. Being righteous may allow for more determination and the endurance to rise to a difficult situation and do what's right. None of these things make it easier. Ease is often the hallmark of an incorrect path in difficult times. Doing the right thing does not always equate to doing an easy thing.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I am compelled to disagree with this point, Sean. Being righteous may allow for more determination and the endurance to rise to a difficult situation and do what's right. None of these things make it easier. Ease is often the hallmark of an incorrect path in difficult times. Doing the right thing does not always equate to doing an easy thing.

Of course the easy thing to do is nothing, but being sure of yourself greases the wheels for action.
Sean

 

[Xue Sheng]

2. A greater knowledge of who you are, what you can do and where you can be is available to you by the physical application of your martial art. But if students don't already know that, who's gonna tell them? Their instructor? Nope... Afraid. Students' conclusion? There is no spirituality in martial arts and we really are punching machines, but hey, we all love a superficial punching machine - *so* easy to train... [devil's advocate]
Respects!

First this does not upset me, but the above quote could be considered insulting.

Second. If you wish to pursue spirituallity in Martial Arts that is fine, I will defend your right to do it. But to maintain that I do not becuae I either am afraid of it or do not understand it by your definition I simply do not agree with.

Pointing a child away from drugs to martial arts is spiritual to him/her, I have no idea. Is it a good thing? By all means YES.

Training to move internal energy to emit fajing, nope..Don’t see spirituallity here. Even though it takes a long time to do and required, surprisingly enough, no punching.

I feel the spirituallity forced on martial arts is ruining them. I have seen many a Tai Chi class degenerate into a Tai Chi mediation/Yoga/self development group and completely leave the martial arts behind, and leave it behind to a point were if you mention it or wish to pursue it you are labeled anti-spiritual, anti-social and/or overly violent. I have heard these Tai Chi practitioners say things like "I don't DO martial arts I DO Tai Chi" as if martial arts were bad. I have had people walk out of Tai Chi classes at the mere mention of Tai Chi and Martial Arts in the same sentence.

If you want western spirituallity study Tai Chi Chih, I have no problem with this what-so-ever. But if I were to walk into one of these classes and tell them they are wrong or afraid of martial arts, that would be just wrong and all would agree. But if someone walks into a martial arts class and start talking about spirituallity and is not get greeted with open arms and acceptance of their way of thinking then those people in that martial arts class are afraid of the truth. I just don’t get the double standard.

From my experience it is not the lack of spirituallity in a Tai Chi class that is the problem it the over abundance of it and the complete refusal of those pursuing Tai Chi for spirituallity to except the fact that it is a martial art. If you want spirituality or to experience an epiphany that is great, I will once again support it. But many of these people look down on simple martial artists as some sort of lesser human. So is there spirituality in arrogance and prejudice?

There is no fear here of spirituallity there is only the feeling of being sick and tired of hearing about it from those that are attempting to force some mystical, spiritual, religion on it were one, for all intensive purposes, may already be there in a way you may just not understand. If you want spirituallity in martial arts I suggest you study where they came from before you impose your brand of spirituallity on it. I personally do not see it as spirituallity, but I am willing to admit knowing what I know about eastern religions that it is very possible that it is there already.

If you do practice internal martial arts there is a WHOLE lot beyond punching and if your art emphasizes punching as the be all end all of the art I suggest you find another teacher. But please do not judge me by your standard. I have done for the most part and the majority of the last 15 years only internal martial arts. And internal martial arts stress development of internal energy and focus, I do not call this spiritual but if you do that is fine. But please do not tell me that I do not understand it or I am afraid of it because I do not agree with your point of view.

W
1. Why, oh why do so many confuse spirituality in the martial arts with religion when spirituality concerns enlightenment and religion is about adherence to doctrine? I say it's because of the eastern traditions - the relentless permeation into our martial consciousness of the images of sages on isolated snowy mountaintops, the inheritance of the notion that we have to be as Bodidharma or Morehei Ueshiba or Mr. goddamn Miyagi to appreciate deeper knowledge through the arts and the notion that spirituality is somehow *beyond* what we as grass-roots martial artists are capable of - who's at fault is irrelevant, this lie has become a truth.

Respects!

These are once again western perceptions of eastern mysticism.

Mr. Miyagi is a character from a movie.

Morehei Ueshiba was the founder of Aikido, which I previously stated a Do is more for self development than combat. This is not to say that an Aikido person is not a force to be reckoned with, quite the contrary they are very good martial artists.

I do not think that a martial artist is not capable of spirituallity, I however do think forcing in upon a martial art where it either does not exist or already may exist in some other fashion you do not understand is wrong.

As for religion and spirituallity, I am willing to accept the fact that you separate them. I however see spirituallity as being spiritual, which to me implies some sort of religious conviction.

Enlightenment, to me, is gained by people that dedicate a lot more to something that studying martial arts. As I previously stated, enlightenment is for those such as Buddha, the Dalai Lama, Zen monks, Taoist monks, etc, not this simple martial artist. I do not consider the term enlightenment one to be taken lightly nor claimed so easily.

These things are a whole lot harder to achieve than most people want to believe.

 

[MartialIntent]

Ease is often the hallmark of an incorrect path in difficult times.

I really like that quote. Is that your own or are you paraphrasing? Good one!

Doing the right thing does not always equate to doing an easy thing.

I difficult situations, I think this is exactly correct. I would equate this inner-strength that you're alluding to [which allows you to follow through on difficult paths] to true personal spirituality. I think it's about having an inner confidence to, as you say, do the right thing.

I firmly believe the martial arts can help us gain a deeper knowledge of ourselves which in turn gives us an insight into how we act, react and make those right decisions in difficult circumstances.

Would you agree or do you see the arts as being only a vehicle for superficial physical activity?

Recpects!

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

I really like that quote. Is that your own or are you paraphrasing? Good one!

That one's mine Feel free to use it, royalty-free, for 6 months

I difficult situations, I think this is exactly correct. I would equate this inner-strength that you're alluding to [which allows you to follow through on difficult paths] to true personal spirituality. I think it's about having an inner confidence to, as you say, do the right thing.

That's the essense of my comment. To me, personal faith, connectivity to a greater thing, is the true basis for righteous strength.

I firmly believe the martial arts can help us gain a deeper knowledge of ourselves which in turn gives us an insight into how we act, react and make those right decisions in difficult circumstances.

Would you agree or do you see the arts as being only a vehicle for superficial physical activity?

Recpects!

MA has both sides to it. I know I've seen it misused as a tool for aggression; therefor, it does not have (necessarily) a positive spiritual aspect. It is both a path and a tool. It can be simply a way to better physical condition or it can be a meditative instrument on a spiritual path. It's big enough for both.

egg

 

[MartialIntent]

I feel the spirituallity forced on martial arts is ruining them.

The very act of "forcing" has a tendency to ruin many things. I practise Aikido - I live by that tenet.

From my experience it is not the lack of spirituallity in a Tai Chi class that is the problem it the over abundance of it

Tai Chi is undoubtedly the exception to the rule. Most schools I have been a part of shy away from spirituality because instructors simply wouldn't know where to begin. This failure to even broach the subject has been inherent in their own training and probably their instructor's before them. My point is that somewhere in the history of most arts, the founder's verve for the "holistic" art [being physical AND spiritual] has either been wilfully dumped or merely not understood. From then on, the focus has been on training us to be punching machines and not thinking fighters. As I say, Tai Chi is a noteable exception to this lack of spiritual aspects.

But please do not tell me that I do not understand it or I am afraid of it because I do not agree with your point of view.

No, I'm not referring to you specifically, I'm simply attempting to open the discussion as wide as I can.

I do not think that a martial artist is not capable of spirituallity, I however do think forcing in upon a martial art where it either does not exist or already may exist in some other fashion you do not understand is wrong.

I agree. Where I come from, no one forces anything upon anyone. My point is that if students wish to gain deeper spiritual knowledge of their art, often there are very few avenues of exploration open to them.

Enlightenment, to me, is gained by people that dedicate a lot more to something that studying martial arts. As I previously stated, enlightenment is for those such as Buddha, the Dalai Lama, Zen monks, Taoist monks, etc, not this simple martial artist. I do not consider the term enlightenment one to be taken lightly nor claimed so easily.

Well, I've never even travelled to Shaolin and you know, for me, it's a very pessimistic and lowly attitude to think that [cf. my earlier Mr. Miyagi point] that us non-icons such as the ones you have mentioned, could never reach a level of personal enlightenment. I for one, think I'm well on the path to my own enlightment and self-knowledge through my art. And good luck to me!

Respects!

 

[MartialIntent]

MA has both sides to it. I know I've seen it misused as a tool for aggression; therefor, it does not have (necessarily) a positive spiritual aspect. It is both a path and a tool. It can be simply a way to better physical condition or it can be a meditative instrument on a spiritual path. It's big enough for both.
egg

You cut to the chase right there. I think the arts have more than enough capacity, expertise and insight to train us to be "rounded" thinking fighters. But I see schools shrug off the spiritual: too sissy; nobody wants to know *that* stuff; we don't do that here - I get this all the time.

I think the reluctance comes down to fear in the instructor. I think this fear to raise the subject in the dojo comes not from the instructor's lack of knowledge, no, far from it - I've never met a genuine, focussed, disciplined instructor yet who wasn't a deep thinker in their art, no, on the contrary, the fear is often because no-one in their lineage has ever pointed out to him that what he does, how he acts, how he thinks and how he fights are spiritual aspects of the art.

This is the discussion I'm always looking to push.

Hope that makes a little sense...

Thanks for the free quote - I liked it so much, you might see that on my sig, especially since you've granted me unlimited usage... ;¬)

Respects!

 

[Flying Crane]

You cut to the chase right there. I think the arts have more than enough capacity, expertise and insight to train us to be "rounded" thinking fighters. But I see schools shrug off the spiritual: too sissy; nobody wants to know *that* stuff; we don't do that here - I get this all the time.

I think the reluctance comes down to fear in the instructor. I think this fear to raise the subject in the dojo comes not from the instructor's lack of knowledge, no, far from it - I've never met a genuine, focussed, disciplined instructor yet who wasn't a deep thinker in their art, no, on the contrary, the fear is often because no-one in their lineage has ever pointed out to him that what he does, how he acts, how he thinks and how he fights are spiritual aspects of the art.

This is the discussion I'm always looking to push.

Hope that makes a little sense...

Thanks for the free quote - I liked it so much, you might see that on my sig, especially since you've granted me unlimited usage... ;¬)

Respects!

I think I have to side with Xue Sheng here. I think the reason spirituality often does not come up in the training is because it does not exist, not becuse the instructor is afraid to broach the subject. These arts were developed for a very practical reason: to fight successfully and with finality. Any other benefits that they may give is all extra. They were not developed as a way of spirituality or philosophy, until the modern "do" derivatives of the Japanese arts made an attempt to change focus. But these arts are derivatives of arts that were originally created for very practical and extreme purposes.

A few years ago I attempted to do some independent research into the "spiritual" aspect of Tibetan White Crane. Since the art was supposedly developed by a Tibetan Lama it has this association with Tibetan Buddhism and I wondered just the one influenced or guided the other. Of course my research was not by any means exhaustive, but I really couldn't find anything convincing. Other than the pure association of having been developed by Buddhists, the best I could come up with is that the discipline necessary to effectively and dilligently practice the art can be useful in the study, meditation, and prayers of a practicing Buddhist. I just couldn't find much beyond that.

I think there is a lot of truth in the notion that spirituality is forced on the martial arts thru an inappropriate western perspective, and it just doesn't fit the way we want it to. We try to cram a square peg into a round hole.