What is "Spirituality"? And does in belong in MA?

Discussion in 'Philosophy and Spirituality in the Arts' started by Elayna, Aug 15, 2006.

  1. Elayna

    Elayna Green Belt

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    Hi all...

    I know this is a subject that has been done time and time again. But here goes.
    I have seen through posts how some people really just dont like the thought of "spirtuality" in martial arts. Thats ok, because in alot of ways niether do I. I just see "spirutality" as something different. I am hoping this post will help to elaborate the way that I think it was meant to be seen.

    A few defintions....

    Spirit: <over 12 definitions. I took the first>
    1: The vital principle or animating force within human beings.
    5a: The part of a human associated with the mind, will and feelings.

    Spiritual:
    1: Of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit. Not tangible or material.

    Spirituality:
    1: the state, quality, manner of being spiritual.


    So in my opinion in order to understand spirituality, spriitual, you have to look to the root of the definiton. Spirit. Because just adding -uality- or -ual- you are just adding to the original definition, not neccessairly changing it as we see above.
    So I would like to put forth the following thought.

    If Spirit, has to do with the part of the human associated with the mind, will and feelings, then according to Kano and other original creators of martial arts, then martial arts is indeed spiritual.

    Not in the sense of the definition in regards to religion. Because when I was looking there were indeed those definitions. In regards to "ghosts" "religion" "Clergy" being "holy" and so on.
    Well my personal opinion is that martial arts does not hold a "spirit" in that sense. But a "spirit" in the sense of the mind. A thing that is not neccessarily "tangible" or "material" according to the definition, but something that is none the less important.
    And according to Kano, and other masters, cultivating the mind is just as important as physical education and training.
    So in just this sense of the definition of spirutal and sprituality, I would have to say yes.
    Martial arts is spirutual.
    It has nothing to do with crystal balls, having a circle where you talk to the dead, or being all wise an knowing by just doing a kata. Or any "hocus Pocus" like that. Now, a "sixth sense" maybe. We have not yet to prove or disprove this existence. I myself personally believe, just by being a mom, in the knowing or feeling of things, if you get my meaning. But in regards to martial arts I would have to say in my personal feelings that unless you are a master of Kanos ability, then most likely not.
    All my personal feelings aside...
    Spritual in the sense, that while cultivating your mind, you learn, experience and feel things that can not be seen on paper or to anyone else but yourself. That it is a mind based thing, that only the holder of the mind can feel, describe and understand.
    And according to the definition and Kanos writing I would have to say, this is a pretty close assumption.
    But that could just be me.. :)

    I hope you all find this interesting and maybe something many of us agree on. So that we can finally get past it being "spiritual" and concentrate on the other parts as well.

    :) :) :D :D
     
  2. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    I have no problem with anyone saying there is spirituality to martial arts. But I am very guarded when I say it.

    And I feel it is, as I have said many times before, intrinsic. Which I think is what you are saying.

    But I do have a big problem with it when those that are looking for it expect the Sifu, sensei, teacher to hold a class on spirituality. Or when they walk in looking for the flashing light that says "SPIRITUALITY HERE" and when they don't find that either complain there is no longer spirituality in Martial arts of change it to what it isn't.

    It is an internal thing to each student; it is intrinsic to your chosen martial art. It a dojo, kwoon, school not a church.

    Thank you, I am now finished.... maybe

    I should just probably save time and post links to my various rants I have posted on MT on this subject
     
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  3. Elayna

    Elayna Green Belt

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    Xue,

    You put...

    *But I do have a big problem with it when those that are looking for it expect the Sifu, sensei, teacher to hold a class on spirituality. Or when they walk in looking for the flashing light that says "SPIRITUALITY HERE" and when they don't find that either complain there is no longer spirituality in Martial arts of change it to what it isn't.****

    I agree with you. I dont think/believe that you are going to find "spirituality" in one class alone. I dont think anyone can give it to you. I think throughout your journey you will find what to you is "spritual". I think/believe that there are people along your journey that will help you with this.
    And, for those people who believe it can just be handed to you, well I think they are looking for an easy fix. And maybe they need to do some deep thinking about why they want that easy fix.
    I know that martial arts is a wonderful catalyst for sprituality. Through the cultivating of the mind, body and soul is where you find spirtuality. But that comes with indepth looking into ones self. Brusies and scrapes. And alot of heartache so to speak. It is not easy and will never just be handed out.
    And just to change an art because it isnt "spritual" I dont think is right. To change an art because you personally arent getting anything from it is ok. Because the teacher is not what you thought, or for personal reasons. But soley based on the "spritual" factor I think is a little....mistaken.
    I firmly believe that martial is "spritual". Just not in the "hocus Pocus" way that you are referring to I think, Xue.
    I firmly believe nothing, i repeat NOTHING in life is free. Especially anything that can be called "spritual" or "enlightenment" and so on.
    But I do firmly believe it to be possible.

    My point of this thread, was to hopefully find a common ground among those of us who differ in our views of sprituality. So that we can continue on our journey, and discuss other things. The other parts of martial arts that the original masters speak of.
    I hope it helps. :) :)

    Oh, and Xue, I hope I have not agitated you. I really am not meaning to cause a rant thread or "beat a dead horse", I hope you understand. :) I know you will. You are a good person. :) (i think..hehehehe :) )

    Anyways...TTYL
     
  4. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    Don't worry about it, I am not agitated, you will know if I am agitated, angry, upset, etc. its EASY to tell when that happen. I have no intention to rant and I see no reason too.

    I have been down this road before, although I will say I like your approach to it much better than the previous posts on this topic.

    Also I was not aiming my last comment at you or your post, just the expected responses to it.
     
  5. Touch Of Death

    Touch Of Death Sr. Grandmaster

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    I think classes should be held on spirituality. If you cannot explore what you might fight and die for in a martial arts class, you are avoiding rather than exploring and developing.
    Sean
     
  6. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    I think that if the arts have spirituality, it is a modern notion due in large part to the fact that the world that many of us live in is by and large safer than it was centuries ago, and this affords us the luxury to contemplate such things and find it within our practice.

    Long ago, the world was much less safe than it is for most of us today. We have effective law enforcement and courts that are designed to deal with violence. We have a society that mostly frowns upon violent behavior. We have networks of friends, family and social services that can help when we are in trouble.

    But centuries ago this was not true. Laws and law enforcement were much less prevalent. People could be attacked, and there was no police force to call for help. You could not count on the law enforcement system to bring criminals to justice. If you were attacked, it was literally a fight for your life.

    The roots of the arts that we practice today were developed in this dangerous era. The arts were designed to kill, plain and simple. They were not meant for "enlightenment", "spirituality", competition, fun, enjoyment, exercise, self-embetterment, or any of the other non-violent reasons why people practice the arts today. They were meant to be an effective method of fighting, plain and simple, because often, if you were attacked by bandits, robbers, thieves and other ne'er-do-wells, your skills with your natural weapons were all you had.

    Some exceptions may have existed, but I believe they really were exceptions to the rule. The Shaolin monastery, which was first and foremost a Buddhist monastery used exercises including martial arts, to condition and discipline the body and the mind to more effectively pursue the Buddhist practices. But for most people, this was not their reality.

    Today, we have time and leisure to find "spirituality" in the martial arts. But I believe this was never the original intention of the arts. They were meant to be quick, powerful, efficient, and brutal, and the lives of the practitioners and their families and their village often depended upon this.
     
  7. Touch Of Death

    Touch Of Death Sr. Grandmaster

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    I believe it has always been about spirituality.
    Sean
     
  8. SFC JeffJ

    SFC JeffJ Grandmaster

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    I think in a lot of ways, some of the masters such as Kano, O Sensei, and others, gave themselves a bit of an out. When it comes down to the nitty gritty, the combative systems they developed or improved upon were all about conflict. However, they were for the most part, peaceful men. A bit of a contradiction. So they started using their techniques as a (here it is) metaphor for living a more peaceful and introspective life. When Diato Ryu Aiki jujitsu was taught in days past, it was taught to Samurai to help them more efficiently kill their lords enemies. Nothing more. And if I remember correctly, many CMAs where developed by Chinese generals to better their troops during wars of expansion. Only in relatively recent history has anyone considered learning combat techniques as a method of bettering oneself outside of the physical.

    Now don't get me wrong. I think the survival of many of the styles is because of this new spin. The Europeans didn't do it with their combative systems, and they have all but faded away into obscurity, save for a few that remain only as sports.

    Martial Arts can be spiritual. It doesn't have to be though. Do with it what you will. If you are skilled and use it for the spiritual, I'll respect you for it. Just don't try to preach to my while I'm training.

    Jeff

    (And no Elanya, I'm NOT upset with you in any way!)
     
  9. MartialIntent

    MartialIntent Black Belt

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    Elayna,

    I think owing to its intangible state, it's difficult to "define" spirituality. I mean, sure we have a hundred semantic ideas from a hundred lexicographers but spirituality is something so peculiar to the individual and so wholly and necessarily subjective that attempting rock solid definitions that equally apply to each and every one of us is I think ultimately unnecessary. Each of us has have our own definition of spirituality which can only be realised through experience. Once you have your own definition of spirituality in your art, then it matters not if that's in keeping with some standard determination.

    And when talking of spiritual experience, in my personal opinion, I don't mean meditating one's navel for hours on end nor do I mean subjecting oneself to the self-serving doctrines of religious orthodoxy [I believe religion and spirituality are realms apart]. No, for me, spirituality is *any* attempt to transcend the solely physical techniques of the art. By that I mean reaching some point of self-realisation through the practice of those very same physical techniques. Furthermore, I don't believe that one need practice any particular art. Beyond a practitioner's own intransigence, there's no adequate reason why some "enlightenment" [however fleeting] can't be attained by anyone practising any art - the caveat of course being that they have such a desire.

    Again, if one doesn't have a desire for spirituality in one's art then fair enough, I'd never suggest it should be otherwise.

    But again, that's plainly just my interpretation. Everyone has their own take on spirituality [with each being equally valid].

    As to the second part of your question - does spirituality belong in MA - for me, as I've said, there's certainly no place for enforcing, coercion or foisting ideas upon practitioners but conversely imo, there's often *nowhere* or no one a practitioner can go to if they *are* actually seeking some form of "sanctioned" spirituality to complement their art [and I'm solely speaking for what I've noted in and around my own Aikido]. I think that's remiss of those schools who claim themselves as purveyors of something more than the quickest way to kick the **** out of each other, but as the man said: that's just the way it is.

    Good luck yourself though :)

    Respects!
     
  10. MartialIntent

    MartialIntent Black Belt

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    JeffJ
    I understand that pov certainly, I'd just add that for Aikido as designed by O'Sensei, it was created of course as an art like any other which could resolve physical conflict however, it was designed in such a way that both parties in any conflict emerged without serious harm. Naturally that doesn't preclude its use for harm - and in fact this is a concept that's often hideously overlooked in Aikido schools - but still, the physical techniques were designed to terminate physical altercations peaceably - those physical techniques being wholly borne out of the spiritual and philosophical core of the art.

    Sorry for the deviation in the thread, I got no axe to grind nor anything to prove here besides trying to show O'Sensei was no spiritual hypocrite. I'd concede though that a great many of his Aikido progeny of our times most certainly are.

    Respects!
     
  11. SFC JeffJ

    SFC JeffJ Grandmaster

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    Oh, I definitely do not think O Sensei was a hypocrite. Nor Kano for that matter. They were peaceable men who enjoyed a violent pastime. Sorry if I gave that impression. They were both pioneers in the use of a combative style as a metaphor on how to live your life. It saddens me to see what has become of both styles today. The over emphasis of sport in Judo, and the impracticality of a lot of Aikido. Of course there are still good examples of both around. Seems like they are getting harder to find though. But that's another thread.

    Jeff
     
  12. Elayna

    Elayna Green Belt

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    Wow, totally love all the responses. Yummmyyy. LOL (i can be crazy..did i ever mention that??)
    Anyways, here goes...

    Xue,

    Thanks for telling me i didnt agitate you. Defintaly dont want to agitate you. Let me know when I do so I can get protective gear first. LOL. :) Love ya xue. :D

    T.OF.D,

    I dont see any harm in holding classes on spriituality, as long as it is explained in a logical martial arts way. Not completly talked about in regards to "hocus Pocus" if you will. I think it would be more approprite to hold a class on "the philosophy of the martial arts" then a "sprituality class". Just my thoughts though. :D

    Flying Crane...

    Like I have said in previous posts of mine, in some ways I agree with you. But in so many ways I dont. None of us can honestly say why the martial arts were made. We can assume, speculate and so on. We have ancient scrolls and writings that almost contridict themselves in explaining why or how the "original" martial arts was intended. I mean honestly...How do we even know for 100 percent accuracy it was called "martial arts"
    But i do understand your point in it being for violence, or self defense.
    Especially of ones village or family. But I also see this as "spritual". Since being spritual is being of spirit, which isnt tangible of material of a humans mind, will and feelings. And i believe having the feeling or mind set or the will to protect ones family is an intangible nor material thing that could be called spritual. So who is to say that the martial arts werent orginally spritual??

    MartialIntent...

    I do agree that each person has his/her own definition of spiritual and to try to come up with a "one" definition among all is pretty much impossible. And I in know way intend to change ones point of view. Spritual, or spirituality is defeniatly something one does on his/her own. But to help on that journey you encounter people that will help you or hinder you. I hope to be one that helps. Even if it is by posting mundane posts like this. LOL :) But I completly understand where your coming from. :D I really appreciate you replying. :)

    Jeff...
    You and I have gone back and forth, back and forth, and I quite enjoy it. LOL :)
    When you describe martial arts as being a metaphor for sprituality. I have to agree. Considering a metaphor is the following.

    1. A figure of speech in which a word or phrase that ordinarily designates one thing is used to designate another, thus making an implicit comparison, as in “a sea of troubles” or “All the world's a stage” (Shakespeare).
    2. One thing conceived as representing another; a symbol: “Hollywood has always been an irresistible, prefabricated metaphor for the crass, the materialistic, the shallow, and the craven” (Neal Gabler).
    So I am going to awesume it is the second one. But if you look at it in this perspective cant going into martial arts or describing martial arts be a metaphor, for virtue, honor, respect, kindness, and so on? I mean, it was not orginally created for that? Is that what you are doing when you are training? Not to sound mean or anything, but if you look at martial arts and sprituality truly as a metaphor, then so can everything else in martial arts.

    To everyone....

    I am trying to convey, that sprituality in martial arts doesnt have to be something involving religion, or the "wow" factor, or having some private conversation with God. It can be spritual to train. According to the definition and according to Kano, O-Sensi and many others.
    If we can stop looking at spirituality in martial arts as something religious or the such we can start more seeing what the great masters were trying to convey. True not everyone will see it this way. Maybe not even want to. But I do. I believe that one can be spiritual without going to church, without training, without anything. It is all about an experience that is something regarding the mind, will and feelings that you can not see or make material. The birth of a child. The death of a friend. Smelling the roses. I mean goodness some might say smelling poop is spiritual.
    Spiritual can mean so many things. But to fully understand the teachers of old, I think we must open our mind to more the one possibility for "spritual" or "training" and so on.
    That goes both for those on either side of the fence.
    You are right in your own right. And you are wrong in your own wrong, so to speak. But what is important, is coming to together and studying, practicing and so on as one. Like Kano and many others tell us.
    And the reason I picked spirituality to talk about on this, is because it is a hot topic. One of great debate, arguing, flaming and so on. Just like to train in a dojo or not too.
    I love this quote from Kano, that I hope expresses what I am trying to convey in regards to sprituality and the like....

    "But even if Judo is not practiced in the form of kata and randori, as long as its meaning is understood, anyone can live a life that fulfills the aims of Judo." ~Kano 'Mind over Muscle' p.g 94

    It is the meaning, or the essence if you will that is important. And that is what we need to be concentrating on as well as the others. Not only to fulfill the aims of judo, but also the aims of ones life.

    Training is spiritual. Meditating is spiritual. Everything can and is spiritual if that is what you precieve it as.
    Ones persons trash is anothers treasure. Keep that in mind.

    Thank you all so much for the wonderful convo and thoughts. I hope to hear more. It really is the highlight of my day. :D (ok how boring am I?? )

    Love Ya all...:D
     
  13. Touch Of Death

    Touch Of Death Sr. Grandmaster

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    T.OF.D,

    I dont see any harm in holding classes on spriituality, as long as it is explained in a logical martial arts way. Not completly talked about in regards to "hocus Pocus" if you will. I think it would be more approprite to hold a class on "the philosophy of the martial arts" then a "sprituality class". Just my thoughts though. :D



    Renaming spirituality Your "martial philosophy" may eliminate fears but its still your spirituality that dictates your actions.
    Sean
     
  14. Brother John

    Brother John Senior Master

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    Hey Jeff-
    I'm going to respectfully disagree with you.
    Many of the oldest systems of the martial arts were originally taught to and by Monks as a part of the Chan Buddhist tradition. In India the VERY ancient martial arts (some say they are the DEEP roots of our Oriental martial arts) are highly religious, to the point that their forms begin with formal prayer and the passing of rank comes hand in hand with a blessing from a holy-man, who is also a martial arts master. (Kalarypayet, Marma Addi are two that come to mind right off the bat...though I think I butchered the spelling of the first one)

    Many very old systems come from the teachings of Taoist monks as well.

    One thing that I think must be considered is the Wholistic view of life that the oriental cultures have. They don't "separate" things so much, religion in Japan has to do with Meditation, courtesy, artisanship, craftsmanship, swordsmanship and intellectual striving. Each field interpenetrates the other.
    Kenjutsu, Kyujutsu, Jojutsu, Battojutsu...these are all Martial Arts that you can find being practiced w/in Buddhist monasteries by the monks and the people of the villiage they live w/in. Many view it (their martial Way) as just another aspect of their religious training as it trains the mind and hones the spirit. It's not a 'new spin', but an old Way.

    I don't see it as a conflict that Kano and Funakoshi were both warriors and peaceful men. It makes me think of one of my favorite quotes concerning "Pacifism"....
    (not sure who said that)

    It's common in warrior cultures to find men who excell at combat skills and prowess, yet find peace more appealing and non-violence greatly preferred. In fact I think it's a truism that in order to have more peace one must be all the more prepared to face violence with conviction and aim to arrive at it's resolution QUICKLY...by greater power, skill and preparation.

    Europeans DID combine religion and war.
    Look at King David, read his 144th Psalm, verse one.
    Look at the Crusades. The Knights Templar were FEARED warriors because of their far reaching political clout, their great preparation for battle AND because of their "SWORN OATH" to never retreat in battle. The Crusades was indeed a marriage between religion and War. St. Bernard motivated Thousands of Europeans to go face death in the desert 'To the Greater Glory of Christ".

    The Europeans also don't have the kind of "wholistic" view of life that they do in the Orient. In China and Japan they quite nearly worshiped tradition and family and knowledge being passed on in pristine condition from one generation to the next. In Europe...it's all about whats New. When the use of swords went away at the advent of guns/cannons...etc... they didn't gain or loose in religious teachings....because the methods and means (technology) for war were not tied to religion, the Motivation was however, and that didn't change.

    While I may not have agreed with what you said otherwise, THIS I could NOT agree with More!!!
    Your Brother
    John
     
  15. Brother John

    Brother John Senior Master

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    THAT was one of the best bits on "spirituality in the martial arts" I've ever read!!!

    Might also look up the EXCELLENT book:
    "Living the Martial Way" One of THE most influential MA books I've ever read. (and I read a LOT)

    Kudos to you Elayna

    Your Brother
    John
     
  16. Fu_Bag

    Fu_Bag Blue Belt

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    Elanya,

    Great posts. :)



    Xue Sheng,

    LOL @ "SPIRITUALITY HERE"!!! Now, if only someone could find a way to incorporate crystals, talismans, and face paint into the martial arts.... That'd be a sight to see! ;):D


    Touch of Death,

    Excellent points!! If you have no reason to kill, or to be killed, why risk your life, the lives of your friends and family, or the lives of your "enemies"? I would have to think that the highest forms of martial arts weren't about pointless killing, the destruction of the natural world, and the destruction of the practitiioner and their loved ones. Why curse yourself with what comes with killing for any reason other than restoring peace and a natural, healthy condition for humanity?

    I've known people who've killed. Some seem to have no problems with it at all. For others, it's a burden that they actually came to the martial arts to find peace from. I've said this in another post but I definitely believe that the highest forms of martial arts are holistic in that they provide all that is necessary to live in peace, survive war (both on, and off, of the battlefield), heal, and to help bring things back to a more natural, healthy condition. That, in my mind, is what differentiates fighters vs. warriors, and martial arts vs. martial sports.



    Flying Crane and Jeff,

    Thanks for presenting the opposing arguments. Great jobs and interesting to read. :)


    Martial Intent,

    Excellent points regarding the nature of the life that Ueshiba-sensei worked on breathing into his Way. I wholeheartedly agree with your points on spirituality vs. religion. Don't even get me started on that one.... I've stated in another thread (yours BTW :)) that the spirituality component is important not to dismiss or ignore as it was an integral part of what drove the original masters to perfect their movements and ways.

    For me, if the important "flavor" of whatever art one chooses to practice is put aside, for the sake of the lowest level of development, it's a sad state of affairs for the art. There needs to be, in every art that has ever had a spiritual component, a place to go to connect with the heart of the art. Maybe it's a series of books, a seminar, or the place where the art began, but there definitely needs to be a reference point for the "why" of the art that people can readily access. Otherwise, should you actually kill someone and ask questions such as: "Did I really need to do that? Was that what I was really supposed to do with everything that I've been entrusted with? Could I have used the art in such a way so that no lives had to be lost?", you have a place to go to be away from the physical side of the art so that you can get your head, heart, and spirit together so that, if necessary, you'll be ready for any future conflicts.



    Brother John,

    Wow. Amazing posts!! Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us all. You are a wealth of knowledge and wisdom. :D


    Great thread!!


    Respectfully,


    Fu Bag
     
  17. Elayna

    Elayna Green Belt

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    Thank you all so much for your wonderful replies. Im glad that i didnt mess up trying to convey my thoughts, again. LOL

    Brother John,

    Thank you very much for the book recommendation, and the compliment. It means alot to me. :) I do have to say though, anything that I say or know, is most definatly attributed to the wonderful insights of the masters of the past and the current.
    Any more recommendations would be wonderful :) :)


    I am also going to be posting some thoughts on Kanos ideas regarding cultivating the mind and so on, so that maybe we can better understand how sprituality can play into that.
    And in regards to my comment on sprituality does not have to be associated with religion. Here is a good example of what I mean.
    When my son was born, it was a VERY VERY spiritual thing for me. I just gave birth to this wonderful life. When he was born, the moment of, i could feel a connection. A feeling unlike anything I had ever felt. It was very spritual. But it had nothing to do with my religion. It had nothing to do with meditating or anything like that.
    I remeber when I won my first fight in sparring. I won against a girl that was 2 ranks higher then me and the senseis daughter no less. I was so exhilarted. I mean man was I hyped. it took everything I had not to yell and scream and say...I beat you I beat you....hahahahahahawhah
    LOL
    And for me I have to say that was spritual as well. And there are times when even mediating is spritual for me. When i figure something out that i have been having trouble on, or when i just feel more relaxed after a hard stressfull day.
    I believe that if we start seeing sprituality in martial arts as more in these terms, that we can start to better understand what the great masters were trying to say.
    We spend so much time debating over what it is, that we dont even look past that to see what other meanings it could have and so on.
    But, to each his own.

    I love reading all your posts and thoughts. It gives me so much to think on and to contemplate.
    If I am any way in your opinion off base, please let me know, because I would indeed like to see all aspects or possiblities of spirituality as to find all the different variables. If thats even possible. LOL :)
    Hey I like a challenge.

    Anyways...will ramble some more later...:) :)
     
  18. MartialIntent

    MartialIntent Black Belt

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    Fu_Bag,

    Thank you once again and I can't disagree with anything you've said. For me, I find it personally disheartening to go visit certain other places of Aikido practice to find a sort of bastardized version of the art being practiced [irrespective of the actual style: Tomiki, Aikikai, Iwama or whatever] whereby what's actually being worked is some half-assed, "hardened" hybrid comprised of a little Judo and a little Hapkido [like a kind of backwards Aikido evolution]. I find this disheartening not least because it reflects a loss of martial integrity with the specific intent of satisfying current western market forces. Sorry... here concludeth the rant :)

    On a side note, for me, with specific reference to this and other similar threads, I would only say that as an aikidoka it's difficult to state how intertwined the overtly spiritual aspect of Aikido and the actual physical techniques are without either sounding condescending and snobbish to other readers or patronising of other arts. Not my intent, but I can't help thinking that's how it comes across nonetheless. Oh well, all societies need pariahs, hehe :)

    Thank you again for your views and opinion. Keep it up.

    Respects!123
     

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