Spirit: the third (forgotten?) part of the triangle
- Thread starter girlbug2
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I lack the spirit to try to understand this post.
Sean
Although the Special Forces makes you kill small animals, to help you learn to kill without feeling icky.... is that what you mean?
Sean
Sean
Mr G
Orange Belt
Holy tread drift , Batman! How did we get to killing small animals?!
Way back at the beginning, this tread discussed Mind, Body, Spirit. Knowledge, Strength, and Power. I wonder why we are trying to separate aspects of ourselves into three. I don't think about my training as "teach my mind how to kick" Now "teach my leg how to kick..." I think the expression is just tying to say that a martial artist in a holistic manner. This isn't just about a fight. It doesn't stay at the dojang. It is a whole life thing.
Way back at the beginning, this tread discussed Mind, Body, Spirit. Knowledge, Strength, and Power. I wonder why we are trying to separate aspects of ourselves into three. I don't think about my training as "teach my mind how to kick" Now "teach my leg how to kick..." I think the expression is just tying to say that a martial artist in a holistic manner. This isn't just about a fight. It doesn't stay at the dojang. It is a whole life thing.
Double-blind studies show prayer works better than the placebo affect. Maybe not proof but definitely worth considering.
Funny how this evolved into arguing what is right, rather than allowing people to just express their beliefs and let them be just that - their beliefs. 
I agree with Errant108 that talking kills it. Almost. I love the Tao Te Ching and especially the first words...have to look them up...
Well, it's the third line in the translation that I have...
"The unnameable is the eternally real."
It reminds me that spirituality is an experience.
"The Tao that can be named is not the eternal tao."
I went to work out with this awesome guy here locally because he's knowledgeable about bunkai in TKD forms and the first thing he did was tell me some quote about when you tell a child the name of a bird, the child never sees the bird again. He instead names the bird, rather than experiencing the creature. He was telling me that by thinking of a block as a block, I limit how I use that movement. If I KNOW that that name is just a name, I can find new uses for that same movement. I just LOVE the people I meet in the martial arts! Can I specifically remember which moves we covered in that one lesson? No, but I have since explored that concept. What a teacher!
Everything we name, it is easy to stop experiencing and a challenge to turn off the thoughts about it and just experience what is now.
For ME, and ME ALONE, I am NOT speaking to anyone else's beliefs here on this forum or anywhere else in the WORLD, even the UNIVERSE, I think that this is how there is spirituality in martial arts. But I also find it in every bit of life. Even in the fact that I am alive (And, No I can't PROVE that!)
I think this was a great topic, girlbug2. Just the kind of thing I love to hear others opinions on...I just might hear one idea to open a new world of concepts for me.
Thanks for posting the question.
I agree with Errant108 that talking kills it. Almost.
I love the Tao Te Ching and especially the first words...have to look them up...Well, it's the third line in the translation that I have...
"The unnameable is the eternally real."
It reminds me that spirituality is an experience.
"The Tao that can be named is not the eternal tao."
I went to work out with this awesome guy here locally because he's knowledgeable about bunkai in TKD forms and the first thing he did was tell me some quote about when you tell a child the name of a bird, the child never sees the bird again. He instead names the bird, rather than experiencing the creature. He was telling me that by thinking of a block as a block, I limit how I use that movement. If I KNOW that that name is just a name, I can find new uses for that same movement. I just LOVE the people I meet in the martial arts! Can I specifically remember which moves we covered in that one lesson? No, but I have since explored that concept. What a teacher!
Everything we name, it is easy to stop experiencing and a challenge to turn off the thoughts about it and just experience what is now.
For ME, and ME ALONE, I am NOT speaking to anyone else's beliefs here on this forum or anywhere else in the WORLD, even the UNIVERSE, I think that this is how there is spirituality in martial arts. But I also find it in every bit of life. Even in the fact that I am alive (And, No I can't PROVE that!)
I think this was a great topic, girlbug2. Just the kind of thing I love to hear others opinions on...I just might hear one idea to open a new world of concepts for me.
Thanks for posting the question.
kaizasosei
Master Black Belt
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Not to go against great explainations and translations of spirit in cma, for example as Steel Tiger has shared above, i would say that behind every idea and intention, there is spirit. If it is a good idea, it is also a good spirit if it is a bad idea it might be a bad spirit.- I don't think it's always that simple relatively speaking though im trying to simplify and unveil the allmightiness of the spirit world.
As it says in one of the socalled lost gospels; when the body comes to be because of the spirit, it is a great thing, but when the spirit comes to be because of the body, it is an even greater thing.
Practicing martial arts or yoga, or dance or simply doing sports or sitting in front of the computer all day or practicing incorrectly to experience injury only to achieve rehabilitation, artists of might, we are like children acting like superman or some super hero. Sure that sounds a bit childish, but in essence, there are a great deal of martial artists that do not realize this much less that surpass it. As i see it, it is the the great spirit that is working through us and our accessibility allows for the spirit to reach us on all realms. We do live in the physical real in physical bodies, so to answer another question as to the greatest benefit of the martial arts, i think it would be that the we can become very open to the great spirit. sortof like mediums
again it says in the lost gospel(dont remember exact wording); the kingdom of heaven is like a person that is home alone and thinking of his enemy, enraged he picks up his sword and stabs into a slab of wood with his enemy in mind,
after that he goes forth and kills his enemy.
i know the killing part is sortof freaky, but i believe it's meant to be philosophical and symbolic not murderous really...
j
As it says in one of the socalled lost gospels; when the body comes to be because of the spirit, it is a great thing, but when the spirit comes to be because of the body, it is an even greater thing.
Practicing martial arts or yoga, or dance or simply doing sports or sitting in front of the computer all day or practicing incorrectly to experience injury only to achieve rehabilitation, artists of might, we are like children acting like superman or some super hero. Sure that sounds a bit childish, but in essence, there are a great deal of martial artists that do not realize this much less that surpass it. As i see it, it is the the great spirit that is working through us and our accessibility allows for the spirit to reach us on all realms. We do live in the physical real in physical bodies, so to answer another question as to the greatest benefit of the martial arts, i think it would be that the we can become very open to the great spirit. sortof like mediums
again it says in the lost gospel(dont remember exact wording); the kingdom of heaven is like a person that is home alone and thinking of his enemy, enraged he picks up his sword and stabs into a slab of wood with his enemy in mind,
after that he goes forth and kills his enemy.
i know the killing part is sortof freaky, but i believe it's meant to be philosophical and symbolic not murderous really...
j
I don't understand this quote. Does anyone have any thoughts about it that would help me see the point? I don't want to just make a knee-jerk response to it. there might be more to it. All I can see is the murderous idea in the quote. Kaizasosei, you must have a different understanding, perhaps from the larger context of the quote or of the lost gospels?
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Not wishing to put a damper on anyone’s definition of spirit or their beliefs but the bottom-line here folks is that whole thing, from a Chinese language perspective is a miss understanding of the Chinese language and how Chinese culture defines spirit.
Shen = Spirit = Unified mind
That is all it is, not religion, not god, not anything of biblical proportions just a unified mind.
Much the same as Kung Fu coming to mean Chinese Martial Arts to the west when it only means hard work, Wushu is the term for Martial Arts in China. This is the kind of thing I am talking about.
Now the discussion of ones personal view of spirit or spirituality in the martial arts is another matter if one whishes to discuss how the practice of martial arts is spiritual to them then by all means go ahead but if it is taking the meaning of Shen and taking that to religion it has nothing to do with it.
Eastern culture does not compartmentalize like we do in the west there is not something called spirituality that is considered seperate from martial arts or daily life it is all the same thing and as I have said multiple times before it is intrinsic.
If you are looking for the rant version of this look to post #18 in this thread.
A good example of this is the Tao....everything comes from Tao.
Shen = Spirit = Unified mind
That is all it is, not religion, not god, not anything of biblical proportions just a unified mind.
Much the same as Kung Fu coming to mean Chinese Martial Arts to the west when it only means hard work, Wushu is the term for Martial Arts in China. This is the kind of thing I am talking about.
Now the discussion of ones personal view of spirit or spirituality in the martial arts is another matter if one whishes to discuss how the practice of martial arts is spiritual to them then by all means go ahead but if it is taking the meaning of Shen and taking that to religion it has nothing to do with it.
Eastern culture does not compartmentalize like we do in the west there is not something called spirituality that is considered seperate from martial arts or daily life it is all the same thing and as I have said multiple times before it is intrinsic.
If you are looking for the rant version of this look to post #18 in this thread.
A good example of this is the Tao....everything comes from Tao.
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thardey
Master Black Belt
Indeed, I think the "body, soul/mind, and spirit" trinity is definitely a western concept. Not solely western, but the division can be traced back to the renaissance with regard to martial arts.
I attended a seminar a month or two ago about Thibault, a fencing master from the 1600's. Most of his style is integrated with his personal philosophies, so to understand his style, it helps to be familiar with his frame of mind.
The instructor brought up the idea of body, mind, and spirit, or, to be more accurate: spirit, mind, and body. If I remember correctly, the philosophy was that the body was driven by the instinct, the "Animus" (animal nature?) was the term he used. It wasn't so much the motions of the physical body (though that is certainly part of it) but the motivation of the body.
An untrained fighter will be "controlled" by the body, or the "animus." The overcommitment to actions, primitive reactions, the emotional responses, the tendency to panic, etc. This will influence how the mind perceives the situation, and the mind is now controlled by the body. The mind then controls the "spirit," in this case, the will to fight. The will is lost, and the fighter will give up easily.
A trained fighter will be controlled by the "spirit" -- that is, according to the teacher's interpretation, the certainty of know that what you are doing is "right." There will be no hesitation because you are acting in full accordance with your beliefs. In the case of Thibault, that would mean that you are acting in accordance with "Divine Will" (enter the religious part.) Whatever your religion doesn't really make a difference, as long as you are able to fully believe that you are morally justified in commiting violence against another person. If that "spirit" is in alignment with your religious beliefs (whatever they are), then your mind will be empowered to pursue those beliefs. With the mind/soul, thus empowered, it is able to control the body, and use it as a servant to the "spiritual" desires. You are able to overcome the primitive desires of the body, and perform better, calmer, and longer.
Now, this is from memory, and is my interpretation of the interpretation of the instructor. But the reason it stuck out to me is that it parallels some of my basic theology. This isn't surprising, because Thibault was influenced by Christianity, and I am a Christian, so yeah.
According to "tricotamists" who believe that we are divided into Body, Soul, and Spirit, the condition of those who have not been "born again" is the same as the description of the untrained fighter, above. The spirit is weak, sick, or completely dead, leaving the primitive desires of the body in charge of actions. These are selfish desires, and usually result in selfish actions. The body's desires control the mind, which is then used to provide the body with what it desires.
The "born again" person refers to the rebirth, or awakening, of the "spirit" which, over time, begins to take control of the person, eventually using the mind to control the body. Of course, the more "mature" or in control your "spirit" is, the closer you are to God. The closer you are to God, the more power the spirit has, since the spirit recieves it's power from God. This often what people refer to when they talk about the "Holy Spirit" -- that is, the spirit that is the connection between our body, soul, and God.
Not to get preachy, but this is the "philosophy" section.
But that is why I believe that the original idea of "spirit" in this thread, and in fact the idea of "sprit" in general in the west, is a cultural thing influenced by the christianity of the west, not so much by the philosophy of the east.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
I believe it is this western concept that mess up a lot of people when they look deeper into Asian Martial Arts, particularly Chinese martial arts, because they see "Spirit" and instantaneously go to spirit as known in Western Religion when in fact Shen which is translated as spirit has little to do with the Western definition and actually is talking about a Unified mind. And it is not a religious concept at all but just something you need to train martial arts. But then what can further mess us westerners up is that Shen or a unified mind is a big part of Buddhism which is a religion but shen itself is not religious only something you need to further your studies of things like Buddhism.
