Where On The Scale of Spirituality...?

[MartialIntent]

Many arts today profess a certain spirituality as part of their core philosophy - often coming directly from the enlightened ways of the founding fathers of the art [from Ueshiba to Parker and many others].

Unfortunately nowadays, it seems this spirituality often stops at the scroll at the dojo door or on the homepage of the official website and many schools appear to pay only lip service to the spiritual aspects of their art.

Personally I see this as a tragedy because I feel that not just some [the ones you'd expect like Tai Chi etc.] but *all* martial arts are capable of providing us with great spirituality and self-enlightenment through disciplined personal practise of the physical aspects alone.

I know spirituality is an innately personal thing but I'm saddened by both the lack even of direction given - or often even mention made of - sprituality in the schools I've visited and also in the shortfall of consideration given to this wonderful aspect of our martial arts [particularly in these days where we're constantly media-thrashed with the whips of "religion"]

I'd be interested to hear from you all: where on the spirituality scale do you see your art *as you practise it*?

Respects!

 

[Xue Sheng]

the ones you'd expect like Tai Chi etc.

I would be interested to know why you feel Tai Chi has any more or less spirituality than any other martial art.

Yes it was supposedly created by a Taoist, but the Chinese Tai Chi masters I have meant or studied with never speak about religion or spirituality. It is an internal martial art, but that is not to say that it is spiritual.

I have practiced tai chi for many years and I have dabbled in a couple other internal martial arts but none have ever been what I would call spiritual.

You may find more spirituality in non-martial tai chi, which tends to be an American invention.

 

[Carol]

The lack of "spiritual direction" is not something that I find to be a shame, I'll explain why.

There are many spiritual directions. When I practice my art, I find so many parallels to my faith, which has martial traditions of its own. I find that through my art, I've even been able to take a better understanding of my faith.

My spirituality grows through introspection and meditation. It is something that I would like to explore growing my spirituality with like-minded people, or even open-minded people. But...too often I feel that growing spirtuality is translated to proselytizing a faith or pushing their ideals.

I don't want the wonder that I feel when I train to be spoiled by someone else's agenda. It's too precious to me.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Having positive life skills gives you purpose and makes you sure of your actions. Negative vibes put you in situations where you know your actions may not be approprate and that makes you unsure of yourself. The Kenpo system places courage as key. If you think about it it takes a lot less courage to do the right thing.
Sean

 

[MartialIntent]

I would be interested to know why you feel Tai Chi has any more or less spirituality than any other martial art.

Yes it was supposedly created by a Taoist, but the Chinese Tai Chi masters I have meant or studied with never speak about religion or spirituality. It is an internal martial art, but that is not to say that it is spiritual.

I have practiced tai chi for many years and I have dabbled in a couple other internal martial arts but none have ever been what I would call spiritual.

You may find more spirituality in non-martial tai chi, which tends to be an American invention.

Thanks for your comment...

I chose Tai Chi arbitrarily because of a perception of the art as being based on slow, meditative techniques for grounding and centering - these very aspects suggested to me that it was an art of mind-body development giving the practitioner both strength and serenity.
:asian: Apologies if my knowledge of the art is lacking!

So are you saying that you don't feel *any* sense of personal enlightenment at all from practising Tai Chi?

My point is that the spirituality has gone from many of our arts, most of which were borne from the founder's drive for knowledge and enlightenment through physical movements.

What happened to that spirituality? Are we just no longer spiritual martial artists? Are we only interested in the kick and punch?

Respects!

 

[MartialIntent]

My spirituality grows through introspection and meditation. It is something that I would like to explore growing my spirituality with like-minded people, or even open-minded people. But...too often I feel that growing spirtuality is translated to proselytizing a faith or pushing their ideals.

I don't want the wonder that I feel when I train to be spoiled by someone else's agenda. It's too precious to me.

Exactly - I'm with you here on this. I think often the problem is that folk unfortunately correlate spirituality [as in self-knowledge] with religion and of course, no-one likes to be preached to... What I'm advocating is some form of discussion at least within schools as to the positive benefits achieved by focussing on how disciplined training can give you a better clue of who you are as a student of the art and moreover, as a person!

Other instructors I've met shy away from that side of their art thinking it's in some way "beyond" what students will comprehend. I have to say, this is not my experience, having found many students like yourself who are genuinely interested in the "thinking" side of the art - though certainly I understand as you say it's not for everyone.

I feel though that most schools are happy to overlook spirituality because it's neither what brings them publicity / new memberships nor will it ever look cool on a website video clip! But I think ultimately omitting it is to the detriment of the school.

Thanks for your comment.

Respects!

 

[MartialIntent]

Having positive life skills gives you purpose and makes you sure of your actions. Negative vibes put you in situations where you know your actions may not be approprate and that makes you unsure of yourself. The Kenpo system places courage as key. If you think about it it takes a lot less courage to do the right thing.
Sean

Exactly - so you can interpret the "spiritual" tenets of Kenpo and utilise them in your daily life. I'm encouraged that the deeper aspects of your art aren't overlooked! I wonder though are you encouraged in your direction by your school or is this something pursued by and of yourself?

Interested to know...

Respects!

 

[Xue Sheng]

Thanks for your comment...

I chose Tai Chi arbitrarily because of a perception of the art as being based on slow, meditative techniques for grounding and centering - these very aspects suggested to me that it was an art of mind-body development giving the practitioner both strength and serenity.
:asian: Apologies if my knowledge of the art is lacking!

So are you saying that you don't feel *any* sense of personal enlightenment at all from practising Tai Chi?

My point is that the spirituality has gone from many of our arts, most of which were borne from the founder's drive for knowledge and enlightenment through physical movements.

What happened to that spirituality? Are we just no longer spiritual martial artists? Are we only interested in the kick and punch?

Respects!

No apology necessary, I tend to associate spirituality with organized religion, which I do realize is a somewhat flawed association by the definition you put forth.

Please excuse me if I am a bit sensitive when it comes to Tai Chi, it currently seems at every turn I find those that are changing Tai Chi from a very effective internal martial art to the Tai Chi health dance and crystal show. This by the way is in no reference to you or this post or anyone in it, just the ranting of a madman.

By your definition in Tai Chi you can experience centering and calm, but personal enlightenment.....no, that is a bit of a stretch. I can get a sense of awareness of myself and my surroundings, but not enlightenment. To me enlightened people are those along the line of Buddha, the Dalai Lama, Zen and Taoist Priests, possibly the Pope, but not this simple Martial Artist.

I see a problem with martial arts today and the forced association of religion. If that is what makes someone happy or feel better about themselves and there fellow man then that is great. I am all for freedom of religion. But most martial arts were not originally religious in the sense of an organized religion, they have been influenced by them, but on a philosophical basis that come out as respect not worship.

 

[SAVAGE]

I will agree that MA makes you more aware of your body, it can help to train the mind to focus...but by spirit..to ME it means sould..and MA doesnt..never has up to this point nourished my soul or spirit!

So I will have to say my spirituality I do not learn from MA!

Now before everyone gets testy...this is only my experience...you cant change it.....I am sure it is very different for othes..and I cannot change that either..nor will I try...this is just my $0.02

 

[Touch Of Death]

Exactly - so you can interpret the "spiritual" tenets of Kenpo and utilise them in your daily life. I'm encouraged that the deeper aspects of your art aren't overlooked! I wonder though are you encouraged in your direction by your school or is this something pursued by and of yourself?

Interested to know...

Respects!

Not so much when I started but I train in a Kid focused school now so absolutely. Our website is www.kicknfun.com if you want an idea of where we are comming from. Life principles are our selling point.
Sean

 

[MartialIntent]

By your definition in Tai Chi you can experience centering and calm, but personal enlightenment.....no, that is a bit of a stretch. I can get a sense of awareness of myself and my surroundings, but not enlightenment. To me enlightened people are those along the line of Buddha, the Dalai Lama, Zen and Taoist Priests, possibly the Pope, but not this simple Martial Artist.

Agreed, but these are religious icons - enlightenment for those involves the big concepts of universe and us in it as a whole [I'm summarizing terribly] but what I'm talking about is that sort of personal epiphany - the realization that *I am* the sort of person who can defend himself, endure pain, focus on tasks, be courageous etc... It's spirituality at the individual level I'm interested in from the MA point of view.

I'm certain you as a practitioner experience that all the time - I think most martial practitioners do but don't call it by the name of spirituality / emlightenment. I just don't think schools discuss the issue enough [or often at all] because, as you rightly say, there's a certain intermingling of this valid personal-spirituality that the martial arts give us with organised religion.

Thanks for the comment...

Respects!

 

[MartialIntent]

I will agree that MA makes you more aware of your body, it can help to train the mind to focus...but by spirit..to ME it means sould..and MA doesnt..never has up to this point nourished my soul or spirit!

So I will have to say my spirituality I do not learn from MA!

Now before everyone gets testy...this is only my experience...you cant change it.....I am sure it is very different for othes..and I cannot change that either..nor will I try...this is just my $0.02

I fully understand where you're coming from though I think many of us still do associate "spirituality" with something only performed by sages / Tibetan monks etc... I know it's a matter of meaning but I think all of us who diligently practise our art gain insights into ourselves: our limits, our motivations, our strengths and physical capabilities, and I think through those realizations, we learn about who we are and what sort of person we are. For me at least, that is true personal spirituality and from that we gain enlightenment, not tapping a gong [no disrespect to gong-tappers of course!!]

What do you think?

Respects!

 

[MartialIntent]

Not so much when I started but I train in a Kid focused school now so absolutely. Our website is www.kicknfun.com if you want an idea of where we are comming from. Life principles are our selling point.
Sean

I think you've got a great grasp of teaching spirituality at the "grass roots" level, ie. it's not preachy but done within the learning framework. Great stuff. I think true martial arts should always be a part and play a role in it's own community. I really like that Whole Family ethos - this is new to me and very progressive. Good luck to you!

 

[Andrew Green]

Martial arts is a physical activity, and like a good many other physical activities people can have spiritual experiences while doing it. Different people will get this in different ways, same as spiritual experiences from anything else.

Some people look at what they believe to be the virgin Mary in a grilled cheese sandwich and have a spiritual experience, some people push there bodies in physical training.

Personally if a instructor tried to teach me spirituallity I'd probably find a new instructor. If I wanted to get taught a "way" of spirituality I'd join a church, him trying to push his beliefs on me would kill whatever spiritual potential was there.

 

[ed-swckf]

Many arts today profess a certain spirituality as part of their core philosophy - often coming directly from the enlightened ways of the founding fathers of the art [from Ueshiba to Parker and many others].

Unfortunately nowadays, it seems this spirituality often stops at the scroll at the dojo door or on the homepage of the official website and many schools appear to pay only lip service to the spiritual aspects of their art.

Personally I see this as a tragedy because I feel that not just some [the ones you'd expect like Tai Chi etc.] but *all* martial arts are capable of providing us with great spirituality and self-enlightenment through disciplined personal practise of the physical aspects alone.

I know spirituality is an innately personal thing but I'm saddened by both the lack even of direction given - or often even mention made of - sprituality in the schools I've visited and also in the shortfall of consideration given to this wonderful aspect of our martial arts [particularly in these days where we're constantly media-thrashed with the whips of "religion"]

I'd be interested to hear from you all: where on the spirituality scale do you see your art *as you practise it*?

Respects!

I see my art on the scale as somewhere you can gain or further any spiritual belief if you so choose, you can just as simply not associate any spirituality with my art in the way i was taught.

 

[Bigshadow]

If you think about it it takes a lot less courage to do the right thing.
Sean

That is not necessarily true... Sometimes it takes far more courage to do the RIGHT thing!

 

[MartialIntent]

Personally if a instructor tried to teach me spirituallity I'd probably find a new instructor. If I wanted to get taught a "way" of spirituality I'd join a church, him trying to push his beliefs on me would kill whatever spiritual potential was there.

I agree, spirituality is a wholly personal endeavour - though huge religious / evangelical institutions might argue otherwise. But as you rightly point out, the very physicality and conscientious application of our martial arts - not only in the dojo but taking it into our everyday lives - can point the practitioner towards enlightenment and a deeper knowledge of themselves. For me, that's what true spirituality through martial arts is about.

My point is that schools seldom point out this positive benefit of practising martial arts. I'm no advocate of preaching of an instructor's beliefs - there's sinply no place for it in the dojo. But I would encourage a discussion of how focussed practise and application of an art can help students towards *their own* self-discovery where for example showing a student he can push his limits well beyond what he'd thought possible or seeing a student take down opponents much larger than she is, is demonstrated as being a practise of spirituality.

I think this has a positive benefit for all arts showing there's more to the art than strikes and throws - even though it's through those strikes and throws that practitioners come to greater self-knowledge.
To me, this is all part of enriching one's awareness of oneself and moreover, it's something that focussed martial artists DO ALREADY without explicitly having it named.

Hope that makes at least some sense. I'm setting myself up for attack here but it's simply what I believe

Respects!

 

[MartialIntent]

I see my art on the scale as somewhere you can gain or further any spiritual belief if you so choose, you can just as simply not associate any spirituality with my art in the way i was taught.

Do you find though, if you *did* chose to dig deeper into the spiritual side of your art, that there'd be any help at your school to do so? I know in my experience that's seldom the case.

I'm interested to know!

 

[Bigshadow]

I think martial arts cultivates the spirit. This can be good, bad, or somewhere in between. It is a very personal thing and I don't think it can be taught, it just comes along with the training. We don't talk about it or try to teach it (as far as I know).

 

[Andrew Green]

My point is that schools seldom point out this positive benefit of practising martial arts. I'm no advocate of preaching of an instructor's beliefs - there's sinply no place for it in the dojo. But I would encourage a discussion of how focussed practise and application of an art can help students towards *their own* self-discovery where for example showing a student he can push his limits well beyond what he'd thought possible or seeing a student take down opponents much larger than she is, is demonstrated as being a practise of spirituality.

I think it would be a hard thing to discuss without putting off a lot of people. On the other hand an instructor can push people past there previous limits, and get them taking down larger people. Those that will find this a spiritual experience still will, and those that won't aren't going to get put off by speeches about how they could.

Resources can be provided, a list of reading materials, be open to discuss it with anyone that is interested, but I wouldn't spend class time on it.