Where On The Scale of Spirituality...?

[Rich Parsons]

I mean, you've hit the nail on the head right there. I think there's a spirituality in all of us whether we choose to name it that or not. And of course our personal spirituality is a beautiful thing springing from which is much creativity. My sense is that often we simply don't have the time, inclination or more pertinently, encouragement to think on it as part of our art. For all that - it's still there within us!

But yeah, the point that you made so well is that one just practises one's art and simply enjoys the physicality of it and to that end, it really matters not whether we see that as spirituality, tap the gong and make a bid hoo-hah about it. But my point is that for those who wish to further develop that "spirituality" and sense of personal enlightenment achieved through their martial aptitudes, often there's nowhere to turn for help or advice. Schools are often entirely focussed on the nitty gritty of techniques that will help us escape a wrist lock while missing the point that while we're engaged in that pursuit, we may actually be learning about ourselves, our adaptability, our quick-thinking, our coordination, our courage, our respect and a myriad other things that point us on the path to spirituality and enlightment.

Respects!

Well in the States, with the exception of some Christian schools, any school that pushes Spirituality is almost always considered a cult. Now this is a cultural thing here.

Just curious if it could be the same in Europe as well?

 

[MartialIntent]

Well in the States, with the exception of some Christian schools, any school that pushes Spirituality is almost always considered a cult. Now this is a cultural thing here.

Just curious if it could be the same in Europe as well?

It certainly would. I for one would wish no part in a school that "pushes" anything. I'm not advocating that though, I'm simply talking about your normal everyday school, students going about their techs and practise and a student thinks "Hey, I been thinking over the spiritual side of my practise", she asks her instructor for direction and finds the instructor can only provide a "grid-reference" rather than travelling on any part of the journey with her. I hope that analogy works

The point was made upthread that were a student to enquire in this way, it would be expected that the instructor would more than likely know of a excellent book on the subject - my response is that if one of your students asks for a technique walkthrough [at the end of class say] would you direct them maybe onto the internet? Nope, you'd wipe the sweat off your palms, grab the sticks and go at it until you were sure the student was confident enough to go off and practise independently.

I think this is what's missing.

Respects!

 

[Touch Of Death]

I disagree with that last sentence. I think some things take alot of courage particularly when to make such a stand results in negative consequences to you and the ones you love. It is also the test of integrity whether you have that courage to do the right thing. I think everyone knows what is the right thing, our conscience tells us. Maybe that is God telling us through our conscience. Easy tests of integrity are like saying yes, I took the last donut. Hard is telling the truth in support of a co-worker who has a family and needs the job, against the wishes of a relative boss, which results eventually in the relative's dismissal. Negative results: resigned the job and forever out of that part of the family no matter how Christian they espouse to be. You just have to pick your battles carefully. I battled my instructor/master and its been nothing but a headache for me, still. TW

If you will step away from the subjective for a second, the courage I am talking about is the basic ease in which you choose to do the right thing and do so because you cannot stomach the consequences of doing the wrong thing. As Dr. Laura would tell you. Two children from different households will make life descisions about fighting or taking drugs based on what they they were raised, what they see around them, positive role models. If the positives of taking that first hit, or throwing that first punch outweigh personal convictions one child just made a whole lotta new freinds and a key to a whole new world, another child found it easy to say no and with that found a key to the real world. Both kids did the easiest thing; however one was more rightious, or, more politicaly correct, one child had a better defined sense of what is right and wrong. I know you get faced with damned if you do and damned if you don't stuations, but you will ulimatly choose what you can live with and that is the easiest thing to do.
Sean

 

[Rich Parsons]

It certainly would. I for one would wish no part in a school that "pushes" anything. I'm not advocating that though, I'm simply talking about your normal everyday school, students going about their techs and practise and a student thinks "Hey, I been thinking over the spiritual side of my practise", she asks her instructor for direction and finds the instructor can only provide a "grid-reference" rather than travelling on any part of the journey with her. I hope that analogy works

The point was made upthread that were a student to enquire in this way, it would be expected that the instructor would more than likely know of a excellent book on the subject - my response is that if one of your students asks for a technique walkthrough [at the end of class say] would you direct them maybe onto the internet? Nope, you'd wipe the sweat off your palms, grab the sticks and go at it until you were sure the student was confident enough to go off and practise independently.

I think this is what's missing.

Respects!

Well I would recommend:

Suzanne White for a European/Western insight into Chinese Astrology.

Benjamin Hoff - for the Tao of Pooh and the Te of Piglet, and also his other book on Tigger (* I cannot remember the name sorry. *)

Nietzsche for other insights into the conscious and the unconscious, and in particular: Is the Unconscious conscious of the fact that the Conscious is Conscious of it?

Then I would also recommend Heinlein for his stories about culture, for a different point of view on how things could be seen by someone.

I would also recommend trying to study the culture through history and also warfare for this would dictate issues of rulership and types of government, as well as types of technology and maybe even philosphies of an era.

 

[MartialIntent]

If you will step away from the subjective for a second, the courage I am talking about is the basic ease in which you choose to do the right thing and do so because you cannot stomach the consequences of doing the wrong thing. As Dr. Laura would tell you. Two children from different households will make life descisions about fighting or taking drugs based on what they they were raised, what they see around them, positive role models. If the positives of taking that first hit, or throwing that first punch outweigh personal convictions one child just made a whole lotta new freinds and a key to a whole new world, another child found it easy to say no and with that found a key to the real world. Both kids did the easiest thing; however one was more rightious, or, more politicaly correct, one child had a better defined sense of what is right and wrong. I know you get faced with damned if you do and damned if you don't stuations, but you will ulimatly choose what you can live with and that is the easiest thing to do.
Sean

This is an interesting sub-thread you guys have here... If I could weigh in with my $.02, I'd agree with the assertion that both kids in the above hypothetical did indeed take the course of action that came easiest to them based upon upbringings, environmentals etc. but at the same time there's an implication that the kid doing her first substance or throwing that first punch somehow has been "sheltered" from what is [to the majority of society] the "right" thing.

I know the circumstances in childrens' formative years largely dictate the overall shapes of their personalities and decision making skills but I think we have to assume that BOTH kids know what's right and what's not - and I've seen the contrary excuse used by slick lawyers in court to try to exhonerate kids accused of murder. This is something I abhor. No child grows up in a moral vacuum - though I appreciate some may have sever psychological damage as a result of often apalling situations [these are exceptional cases though]. And even for all that, I think we all have senses of right and wrong that despite our varied upbringings do in the end roughly correlate.

Therefore I'd say that in your above situation, the more "righteous" decision would have been if the kid who otherwise would have taken that hit / thrown that punch [that being her easiest option] was to have decided against that decision and refused / backed away. This would have been the more difficult path to walk and in which case TigerWoman's initial assertion that it's harder to do the right thing still stands as correct...

Concerning the place from where our consciences derive - everyone has their own equally valid set of influencing factors and beliefs. For me [non-religious] I concur with Nietzsche in that ultimately the conscience is merely an affliction of a system of guilts. I think though in modern societies, our approximate agreement on vague concepts of right and wrong do suggest we're mostly singing from the same hymnsheet even if we're not all singing in the same key...

What do you think?

Respects!

 

[elder999]

I'd be interested to hear from you all: where on the spirituality scale do you see your art *as you practise it*?

Coming in kinda late here, but I couldn't resist.

The first problem I see is the way arts are practiced is our mass production, commercial societies. This is not normally conducive to “spirituality,” though it is not necessarily an impediment: people in the U.S. pay big bucks for all sorts of “spiritual” things.

The second problem, of course, is the customer-er, I mean, the student, who doesn’t usually walk into the dojo/dojang/kwoon looking for spirituality, but to get into shape, or maybe to have fun, and/or learn to kick some ***.

I know that’s how it was for me when I was 11-and can you guess which of those three was most important?

Of course, I was a big fan of Kung Fu the TV series that was on at the time, and aware of “spiritual aspects,” but there wasn’t a lot of that around.I started in Tae Kwon Do, and there wasn't anything "spiritual" about it at all, to me. While there was some sitting meditation in the Kyokushin dojo at the time, it wasn’t very much, and the practice seems to have died off altogether over the years. There also really isn’t too much of a spiritual aspect to Judo or Miyama ryu, unless one wants to call ethics a spiritual aspect, and I think that’s something that’s added confusion to this discussion already.

If one is familiar with the concept of a peak experience, and relates that to spirituality, though, then it's possible that any endeavor can be spiritual for the practitioner.....

Interestingly, I’m the son, grandson and great-grandson of ministers, and actually earned a degree in religious studies before I became an engineer, and spent a fair amount of my teens and college years in practices like yoga and Zen meditation-specifically to supplement my martial arts training.

At this point, I’d like my students to become better people from their training, not just good fighters and athletes. While some of them actually follow some of my own rather…rigorous spiritual practices, and one or two have even followed me into them (rather than the other way around, where people I already pray with came to my class) I certainly wouldn’t push them on anyone (in fact, I’ve discouraged people who were interested once or twice) and they aren’t necessary to martial practice. Other things are, though…

So, while there are some spiritual practices to the way I teach, they’re somewhat tailored to American ways, as well as technologically viable in a martial context, and completely free of dogma or deity-while I believe in the Creator, and make no bones about it, I feel it is necessary to prevent conflict with others beliefs: I’m not going to exclude Christians, Muslims, Jews or Hindus, and certainly don’t want them to feel that these practices (including bowing)are antithetical to their religion-unless, of course, they are-in which case I probably don’t want them for students.

For beginning students, there is no meditation-as I said, that’s not what most Americans walk into a dojo for, and it’s also not necessary for beginning practice. As it is, there is very little sitting at first, and a separate (optional) meditation class for seniors-and we start with counting breaths, as you might expect. Later in class practices deal with visualization, and fear/anger emotional response, even to the point of inducing those feelings.

As far as ethics go-and there is so little of even that in so many dojo in this country-I can offer one example.There’s a vow that I “borrowed” and edited from one of my long ago teachers, and it’s the English part of our dojo kun (and how many don’t even have a dojo kun or its equivalent?):

Not to kill.Not to harm the harmless, and to protect the weak and innocent. Not to disgrace these arts, my teachers or myself.

 

[MartialIntent]

The first problem I see is the way arts are practiced is our mass production, commercial societies. This is not normally conducive to “spirituality,” though it is not necessarily an impediment: people in the U.S. pay big bucks for all sorts of “spiritual” things.

Yep, this is the one of the root causes to the issue that inspired the thread. I think much of the spiritual focus that was initially central to many of our arts at their inception has long since disappeared under pressure schools face to make the cash from income count. And while I understand no school operates out of pure altruism, such "laser-targeting" of the bottom line imHo has displaced a vital chunk of those arts in favor of - as you say below - the desire to learn to kick some ***. Yes, it's about giving the customer what they want but for me it's been at the expense of many of the core values [and I'd say spirituality] that often were so apparent when the art was released to the public domain.

I'd make one other point - there's no doubt some students simply want to kick ***, Period. Spirituality? Nope, not for me. But if posed another way, the numbers may change. The other phrasing being: have you a desire to become more self-knowledgeable? Or have you an interest in seeking your limits? Or would you like to see where you fit in the BIG picture?

Fair enough, many will still be happy to be punching machines [which some schools are wonderful at turning out]. Society is full of folk happy not to know anything, but that's another debate. My point is that spirituality and religion - or that image of Kane in Kung Fu - are often confused with each other and it's mostly to the detriment of a practical spirituality that's for everyone and not just the Zarathustra-type characters or others with otherworldly enlightenment.

Of course, I was a big fan of Kung Fu the TV series that was on at the time, and aware of “spiritual aspects,” but there wasn’t a lot of that around.I started in Tae Kwon Do, and there wasn't anything "spiritual" about it at all, to me. While there was some sitting meditation in the Kyokushin dojo at the time, it wasn’t very much, and the practice seems to have died off altogether over the years. There also really isn’t too much of a spiritual aspect to Judo or Miyama ryu, unless one wants to call ethics a spiritual aspect, and I think that’s something that’s added confusion to this discussion already.

While many arts may not claim an overtly spiritual aspect, that's not to say achieving a level of spiritual awareness for oneself through one's [non-spiritual] art is not possible. I maintain that diligent, constant practise of one's art [whatever the art] with a spirit of seeking knowledge of oneself can at the very least point a practitioner towards enlightenment. This is purely a personal definition of spirituality - everyone's is different.

If one is familiar with the concept of a peak experience, and relates that to spirituality, though, then it's possible that any endeavor can be spiritual for the practitioner.....

This would roughly correlate to my definition. I mean I'm referring to a sense of deep knowledge of *oneself only* as opposed to universal concepts through Zen tenets of nothingness; or enlightenment only through years of enforced solitude in the Tibetan highlands; or through whipping oneself with branches or any of those rituals designed to create gnosis. As I said earlier, while these processes are certainly highly productive in generating desired states in the operator, often we're simply NOT those things here in the west and have little capacity, patience, time or inclination to enter those states.

Unlocking the meaning of the universe in reality may just not be possible for most of us let's be honest, but that's not what this is about, it's about knowledge of the self first and foremost. Because without that knowledge of oneself, one has less chance of gaining deep knowledge of the universe / our place in it etc. And to that end, I feel it is entirely possible for all of us who haven't yet mastered walking on coals, to become spiritually aware of ourselves.

At this point, I’d like my students to become better people from their training, not just good fighters and athletes. While some of them actually follow some of my own rather…rigorous spiritual practices, and one or two have even followed me into them (rather than the other way around, where people I already pray with came to my class) I certainly wouldn’t push them on anyone (in fact, I’ve discouraged people who were interested once or twice) and they aren’t necessary to martial practice.

No arguement whatsoever from me!

So, while there are some spiritual practices to the way I teach, they’re somewhat tailored to American ways, as well as technologically viable in a martial context, and completely free of dogma or deity-while I believe in the Creator, and make no bones about it, I feel it is necessary to prevent conflict with others beliefs: I’m not going to exclude Christians, Muslims, Jews or Hindus, and certainly don’t want them to feel that these practices (including bowing)are antithetical to their religion-unless, of course, they are-in which case I probably don’t want them for students.
For beginning students, there is no meditation-as I said, that’s not what most Americans walk into a dojo for, and it’s also not necessary for beginning practice. As it is, there is very little sitting at first, and a separate (optional) meditation class for seniors-and we start with counting breaths, as you might expect. Later in class practices deal with visualization, and fear/anger emotional response, even to the point of inducing those feelings.

It is highly evident that you operate a very progressive and I am certain, inspiritional school - and I wish you good fortune with your efforts. I entirely agree that a focus on the spiritual practices at the initial steps on a student's martial journey may not be the most expedient plan of progression - nor may it be what they themselves want but what I would say though is that in many schools that I have visited or casually enquired of, there is really no facility for mentoring those students [beginner or advanced] who DO seek the knowledge. Instructors often have an odd "freeze" response to questions on spirituality - instructors with decades of expertise in the art act suddenly as if they've never set a foot on the mat. This is the main issue I have trouble with, particularly if it's from a school which advertises itself as practising an art with a spiritual aspect.

Thank you for your insight, I would be interested if you have more to share.

Respects!

 

[Xue Sheng]

This would roughly correlate to my definition. I mean I'm referring to a sense of deep knowledge of *oneself only* as opposed to universal concepts through Zen tenets of nothingness; or enlightenment only through years of enforced solitude in the Tibetan highlands; or through whipping oneself with branches or any of those rituals designed to create gnosis. As I said earlier, while these processes are certainly highly productive in generating desired states in the operator, often we're simply NOT those things here in the west and have little capacity, patience, time or inclination to enter those states.

This brings up a good point about martial arts in the modern world. Although I do not think years of enforced solitude in the Tibetan highlands; or through whipping oneself with branches or any of those rituals designed to create gnosis belongs in the martial arts, similar things use to be part of martial arts training and in order to make the martial arts kinder and gentler they were removed. It use to be that a student had to prove his dedication and desire to study with a specific master and when they were accepted they were still tested. And although it isn't whipping yourself with branches, standing in a horse stance for hours at a time for a year or more could produce a similar effect.

I have talked to people who have trained Southern Crane style that as part of there training they were Required to take a stance similar to a horse stance and get hit by a log. This is however to develop External Qi, not what I would call Spirituality. And I am still uncomfortable with applying the word spirituality to martial arts

Also I once studied with a martial arts teacher from Taiwan that made the statement that he would never be as good as his sifu because all his sifu did 24 hours a day was Kung fu. His sifu lived away form people in the countryside and did only martial arts. Where the Sifu I was training with had gone to college for engineering, been an engineer, although he was strictly a martial arts person now, and he lived in the city. Although he was dedicated he would never be able to be as dedicated as his sifu.

And with then there is the standardization, if you will, of many martial arts school chains, in order to gain more students they are simply selling a generic package that may only be similar to the origin in name only.
I read about am Okinawa Karate master that I am absolutely sure if he subjected his students to the training he subjected himself to he would have no students.

Basically since martial arts are becoming more of a commodity/business, the deeper more important parts of the training are vanishing because in reality most students may say they want a deeper understanding, few are willing to or able to commit the time and effort to it that is necessary to achieve.

I also know of a very good TKD instructor that closed his school because some of his students, without his permission, went and opened up a chain of TKD schools that literally were promising a black belt in a year. He became disgusted and left the area. This may also be contributing to the problem of lack of depth. The teachers that know it simply are not teaching because there are so few that truly want it.

It is highly evident that you operate a very progressive and I am certain, inspiritional
school - and I wish you good fortune with your efforts. I entirely agree that a focus on the spiritual
practices at the initial steps on a student's martial journey may not be the most expedient plan of
progression - nor may it be what they themselves want but what I would say though is that in many schools
that I have visited or casually enquired of, there is really no facility for mentoring those students
[beginner or advanced] who DO seek the knowledge. Instructors often have an odd "freeze" response to
questions on spirituality - instructors with decades of expertise in the art act suddenly as if they've never
set a foot on the mat. This is the main issue I have trouble with, particularly if it's from a school which
advertises itself as practising an art with a spiritual aspect.

Decades of experience mean nothing if that experience comes from bad or substandard training. Martial arts have been in the west for decades and the people that truly know the arts they profess to teach are few and far between. The measurement of time in a martial art and for that matter the belt someone holds no longer is a guarantee of mastery and understanding. Also the relationship between martial arts teacher and student has changed over the years. Many years ago many martial arts students looked upon their teacher as more of a father figure than a teacher. Remember there are 2 different words for teacher in Chinese Laoshi for Teacher and Sifu for martial arts teacher. I think more today are in reality laoshi

I can go to a martial arts school for years and be a "punching machine" and come out with 30 years experience and yet not know the true art. And then turn around and teach the same thing I learned.

 

[MartialIntent]

Basically since martial arts are becoming more of a commodity/business, the deeper more important parts of the training are vanishing because in reality most students may say they want a deeper understanding, few are willing to or able to commit the time and effort to it that is necessary to achieve.

I agree with a great many of your points. Let me if I might, pick up on just this one and perhaps direct the discussion in a different direction...

Whilst our definitions of spirituality differ, I concur with your point above that reaching any level of proficiency in one's knowledge not only of spirituality but of oneself takes time, discipline and commitment. I also agree that these are attributes that ultimately nowadays many do not have an aptitude for.

So, saying that, my question to you [and please anyone else who may be reading] is in twenty years time, will martial arts' only concern be striking / kicking / grappling with nothing substantial underlying or motivating the physical practices?

Personally, I fear that this is what's happening - that we're getting hugely proficient at generating production-line fighting machines [seen the movie "Universal Soldier" perhaps?] but not so great at schooling what I would term thinking fighters.

Respects!

 

[ed-swckf]

Just to go off the subject slightly for one post.

One of the scariest martial arts schools I have seen in recent years was a ChristianWingChunSchool, the whole thing had the feel of a cult. It has now changed to a Christian pseudo-police combat training school which has absolutely no police as members.

Ok I'm done.

Thats awesome, does it still have the feel of a cult? I would kind of wanna go and have a look but i don't want to gety sucked in to a ritual suicide pact?!

 

[ed-swckf]

I agree, there's too much confusion between orthodox religions and personal spirituality in the arts. And I know of many students who seek a deeper understanding of spirituality in their art and yet have no desire for communion with any of the major religions. This is my own position also.

But its just that, personal spirituality, that you seek - is it not?

Exactly. Spirituality is system of beliefs that is an incredibly personal experience. Each of us has our own spirituality and each is as beautiful as the other in a way unique to the practitioner. We should be entirely at liberty to walk whichever spiritual path we see fit [or none at all for that matter]. By the same token though, many new or inexperienced students *do* have an enthusiasm to develop this aspect of the art but yet have no point of reference because of schools' reluctance to raise the issue within the practise or syllabus or simply because of instructors' inexperience of mentoring the subject.

But the problem arises from the fact that the spirituality is indeed very personal so what reference can you give when its indeed so personal? I mean it could often be met with contrasting views and that seems inpractical and a possible basis for politics. It seems that any spiritual content would have to seem somewhat vauge in order to encompass all walks and perhaps it remains vauge enough that at times it just goes completely unoticed?

I would be hoping that that person who "knows their stuff" would be my instructor. This is my point, that those who do seek a greater understanding of spirituality in their art are forced off onto the internet or somewhere out of the school to carry on their research independently because in many cases schools even feel it would be "inappropriate" to raise the subject within the confines of the dojo. This for me is unfortunate. There's room for change though.

Thank you for your thoughts.

Respects!

But you agree that people are free to believe what they wish and follow or indeed not follow their personal spiritual path so what sense would it make to make the sylabus lean toward a particular flavour of spirituality? when for many it wouldn't fit and feel more like they were being indoctrinated into some pre determined flavour of what spirituality should be. Of course if the spirituality is indeed a core part of the training then sure they should address it unless they have set out not to do so from the outset, and in which case its down to a student to find a class that suits their needs. But whilst most arts will address morality and attitude towards others a spiritual guru is not really what the training needs and if it was required by more people then surely there would be more schools offering that? Maybe i'm wrong and maybe theres a way to be open in teaching toward all peoples insight of spirituality but i can't really see it unfortunately.

 

[Xue Sheng]

So, saying that, my question to you [and please anyone else who may be reading] is in twenty years time, will martial arts' only concern be striking / kicking / grappling with nothing substantial underlying or motivating the physical practices?

Many of them I believe will go that route or loose the martial arts in favor of pseudo understanding or spirituality (I just can’t get comfortable with the word spirituality applied to martial arts – sorry)

I do believe that martial arts in general are changing and in many cases that is not for the better.

I have seen it going in different directions. I have seen many of the harder external martial arts being taught by unqualified people. It is not uncommon to see an advertisement for “Kung Fu” and if you go to the school you find out it is basically karate and the instructor learned a Kung fu form once, many tai Chi classes are taught in the same manner. I do see feel as time goes on that there will be fewer and fewer actual people that know anything about the root of the art that they practice. And the internal arts, these I feel will go two different ways, Tai Chi is dying as a martial art and I am not certain anyone can do anything about it. Bagua could be next, it to can be trained as form only and it is pretty to watch. Xingyi, that’s a harder sell, it shows too much power and is not as pretty and it looks dangerous, so it may be safe. Yiquan, a lot of hard internal work to start and then a lot of martial arts, and I believe no forms. So it may also be safe, but that one could go either way.

I see many styles have no idea of the history or the deeper understanding that the masters of the old had. This, I feel is from different sources; Students that are not interested in long term commitment and want results now. Students that are more interested in who they can beat up. Teachers who are not qualified to actually teach the full art, due to lack of understanding. Teachers that may know the full art but would rather make money than stay true to the style. Teachers who are more interested in trophies for their school.

But I also believe a major issue is the current ranking systems and the emphasis put on them. Not all martial artist are created equal and not all will be able to get there black belt, or any belt for that matter as quickly as the next guy, if at all. How many times do you hear this “how long until I get my black belt?” or “How long till I am a master?” and what constitutes a master, 1 stripe 2 stripes 5 stripes?

I was once, many moons ago, a Taekwondo guy. I learned non-sport TKD and not that I see anything wrong with training sport TKD but I feel it has changed TKD from a very viable martial art into a sport good only for the ring. Gone are the close fighting techniques and the take downs and various strikes, In favor of high kicks and strikes for points.

I see similar changes in Tai Chi, but not to much punching, too little. The Martial arts have been stripped away and all that is left is what many believe to be the spiritual side. But they do not really want to do the internal training, “it takes to long”, “it’s too hard”. They want to walk in learn the form do a little Qi Gong and BANG, enlightenment, all in less than a year.

But there are a few good ones left; I just got off the phone with a teacher of an internal style that starts all his internal classes with standing or posture training, because it is so important to the style. And it is, it is the basics the root and without that it is just a dance. But it is not easy, it is not pretty and it is not the actual form. So there are a few diehards left. But he has few students for this style and it is a hard sell to the public because it is hard.

I see that I have rambled as usual and I hope that I answered your question form at least my point of view.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Thats awesome, does it still have the feel of a cult? I would kind of wanna go and have a look but i don't want to gety sucked in to a ritual suicide pact?!

All I can say, if you ever go there, don't drink the cool aide.

What is interesting is that it did start out innocently enough and it appeared to be a Christian teacher that was teaching Wing Chun and if you were interested in Christianity great if you only wanted Wing Chun that was great too. But somewhere it changed, drastically and for the worse. Now it is very scary and some sort of police tactic religious training academy. Which I imagine would be ok if it weren’t for the complete lack of police involvement.

 

[MartialIntent]

But its just that, personal spirituality, that you seek - is it not?

I am referring to personal spirituality that is correct. Any form of "communal" spirituality implies religion which personally neither concerns nor interests me in my martial practices.

But the problem arises from the fact that the spirituality is indeed very personal so what reference can you give when its indeed so personal?

The point of reference for students who have a desire to learn but little knowledge of personal spirituality *through their art* is simply that the path to enlightenment and self-knowledge can be possible through disciplined, diligent physical practise of the art [whatever the art - spiritually inclined or not] carrying into that physical practise their desire to learn.

I mean it could often be met with contrasting views and that seems inpractical and a possible basis for politics. It seems that any spiritual content would have to seem somewhat vauge in order to encompass all walks and perhaps it remains vauge enough that at times it just goes completely unoticed?

I wouldn't suggest for a minute that spirituality could be "taught". Every student who seeks enlightenment must seek it for themselves. Stands to sense. My issue is that students are often at a loss to know where to begin. And my further concern is that often in this case, the instructor has no knowledge themselves: some schools being largely concerned only with *techniques* with little or no meaning attached to the practise of these techniques.

But you agree that people are free to believe what they wish and follow or indeed not follow their personal spiritual path so what sense would it make to make the sylabus lean toward a particular flavour of spirituality?

Yes I agree, and no I do not advocate any particular flavor of spirituality. This would be in contradiction to everything commonsense about the personal nature of spirituality.

...if it was required by more people then surely there would be more schools offering that?

Several students I have spoken with tell me they just say nothing because they just doubt there'd be anything available in the school [like asking for a T-bone steak in McDonalds]. This however, does not preclude the fact that there's a demand for it. And I think you raise another issue that if in a class of thirty only one has a desire to deepen their spiritual knowledge of the art should we ignore this student's enthusiasm? Direct them onto the internet? Suggest some good reading? Maybe. And maybe that's what happens [it is in my experience]. But it's not what I'd be about personally.

Maybe i'm wrong and maybe theres a way to be open in teaching toward all peoples insight of spirituality but i can't really see it unfortunately.

Ain't that the truth. There's *absolutely* no way to "teach" spirituality to anyone. It's pure arrogance and really just not do-able outside of the aforementioned cults. I'd take it further and say that it is not possible to teach anyone to become an artist. An artist must find themselves through their own practise, their own exploration and experimentation, whether that art be painting, singing, musical composition or yeah, martial arts. But by the same token, were we to ask a seasoned painter for some insight into how to become proficient in painting, we'd expect at least some direction in the fundamentals of brushwork, composition and perspective. No? Or maybe we should be happy just knowing the URL of a good online art-gallery.

Respects!

 

[ed-swckf]

I am referring to personal spirituality that is correct. Any form of "communal" spirituality implies religion which personally neither concerns nor interests me in my martial practices.

What makes it correct?

The point of reference for students who have a desire to learn but little knowledge of personal spirituality *through their art* is simply that the path to enlightenment and self-knowledge can be possible through disciplined, diligent physical practise of the art [whatever the art - spiritually inclined or not] carrying into that physical practise their desire to learn.

I don't think i've come accross many schools that negate that point of reference. But that is something that doesn't need a teacher to tell you. I mean its common knowledge you get out what you put in and some see that as a path that leads to a spiritual enlightenment but thats a personal slant. If they wish to begin on that path then they have begun, there is no need to for the teacher to clarify it for them as that essentially takes away from the idea of personal spirituality.

I wouldn't suggest for a minute that spirituality could be "taught". Every student who seeks enlightenment must seek it for themselves. Stands to sense. My issue is that students are often at a loss to know where to begin. And my further concern is that often in this case, the instructor has no knowledge themselves: some schools being largely concerned only with *techniques* with little or no meaning attached to the practise of these techniques.

Why do the instructors need knowledge in the form of spitituality when they can have an equal knowledge base in other forms of thought and personal insight. If it isn't to be taught why does it matter if the teacher has the knowledge?

Yes I agree, and no I do not advocate any particular flavor of spirituality. This would be in contradiction to everything commonsense about the personal nature of spirituality.

So we could say the instructor with no apparent spiritual knowledge has his own flavour of spirituality that works for them?

Several students I have spoken with tell me they just say nothing because they just doubt there'd be anything available in the school [like asking for a T-bone steak in McDonalds]. This however, does not preclude the fact that there's a demand for it. And I think you raise another issue that if in a class of thirty only one has a desire to deepen their spiritual knowledge of the art should we ignore this student's enthusiasm? Direct them onto the internet? Suggest some good reading? Maybe. And maybe that's what happens [it is in my experience]. But it's not what I'd be about personally.

So how do you meet a demand which is different for all 30 students and isn't to be taught. And the demand for t-bone steak is catered for, when people want that they go to the place that deals that, but the product here isn't to be taught its a personal path and they are already on it.

Ain't that the truth. There's *absolutely* no way to "teach" spirituality to anyone. It's pure arrogance and really just not do-able outside of the aforementioned cults. I'd take it further and say that it is not possible to teach anyone to become an artist. An artist must find themselves through their own practise, their own exploration and experimentation, whether that art be painting, singing, musical composition or yeah, martial arts. But by the same token, were we to ask a seasoned painter for some insight into how to become proficient in painting, we'd expect at least some direction in the fundamentals of brushwork, composition and perspective. No? Or maybe we should be happy just knowing the URL of a good online art-gallery.

Respects!

Well i went to art school and its a good place to learn about art, you mix with artists and your personal expression has to cut its way through. Whilst i was taught skills and techniques i was also helped with creativity and ways to tap into ideas and move them forward. You can't teach it but you can be in the right place to learn it if that makes sense without contradicting itself.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I am referring to personal spirituality that is correct. Any form of "communal" spirituality implies religion which personally neither concerns nor interests me in my martial practices.

Why does communal spirituality imply religion when personal spirituality does not? I still feel that the term spirituality implies the spiritual which in turn implies religion - whether that is a group or an individual it makes no difference

The point of reference for students who have a desire to learn but little knowledge of personal spirituality *through their art* is simply that the path to enlightenment and self-knowledge can be possible through disciplined, diligent physical practise of the art [whatever the art - spiritually inclined or not] carrying into that physical practise their desire to learn.

If it is personal, why is it the responsibility of someone else to show/teach it? And I agree that something can be gained through disciplined, diligent physical practice, but that is what I think I was saying before. Many good and well trained martial arts teachers feel that training and gaining self knowledge or understanding are the same. Therefore they see no need to separate the two or address them separately...

Ain't that the truth. There's *absolutely* no way to "teach" spirituality to anyone. It's pure arrogance and really just not do-able outside of the aforementioned cults. I'd take it further and say that it is not possible to teach anyone to become an artist. An artist must find themselves through their own practise, their own exploration and experimentation, whether that art be painting, singing, musical composition or yeah, martial arts. But by the same token, were we to ask a seasoned painter for some insight into how to become proficient in painting, we'd expect at least some direction in the fundamentals of brushwork, composition and perspective. No? Or maybe we should be happy just knowing the URL of a good online art-gallery.

Could this be because it is personal and therefore the meaning of spirituality could be different from person to person?

As for a good artist teaching brushwork...there are many different artist that have many different brush strokes, is it the responsibility of any artist to teach any or all of them to those that ask? There are some very famous artist out there that I personally can't stand, other I like very much and you may or may not agree so in reference to this "spirituality" how do you decide as the teacher who to teach what to, which is true, and which is best?

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

Why does communal spirituality imply religion when personal spirituality does not? I still feel that the term spirituality implies the spiritual which in turn implies religion - whether that is a group or an individual it makes no difference

I feel I must disagree, Xue. Religion is a structure in which common styles of spirituality meet under agreed rules (dogma). It exists, even, without spirituality. Religion is a construct. Spirituality is innate.

As for a good artist teaching brushwork...there are many different artist that have many different brush strokes, is it the responsibility of any artist to teach any or all of them to those that ask? There are some very famous artist out there that I personally can't stand, other I like very much and you may or may not agree so in reference to this "spirituality" how do you decide as the teacher who to teach what to, which is true, and which is best?

My wife endured art school. In that course of study, she had to complete certain basics in order to attain her degree. Many of these basics were essential styles, created by masters in the arts. Until, through art, she could show that she comprehended these other artists, she could not achieve her degree.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I feel I must disagree, Xue. Religion is a structure in which common styles of spirituality meet under agreed rules (dogma). It exists, even, without spirituality. Religion is a construct. Spirituality is innate.

OK, but if it is innate then why you do need someone to guide you to it through martial arts? Which were originally designed for war.

And my main point here was that to many good and well trained martial arts teachers it may be that they do not see spirituality, if you will, separate from the training. Particularly if that teacher is Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc.

My wife endured art school. In that course of study, she had to complete certain basics in order to attain her degree. Many of these basics were essential styles, created by masters in the arts. Until, through art, she could show that she comprehended these other artists, she could not achieve her degree.

Point taken

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

OK, but if it is innate then why you do need someone to guide you to it through martial arts? Which were originally designed for war.

I see martial arts as a path to many things: physical fitness, discipline, skill and, as it's the topic, a degree of internal knowledge that can easily be moved to a deeper spirituality. I maintain spirituality is innate; but, there's a great difference between a spiritual creature and a creature of spirituality. It, too, is a path.

And my main point here was that to many good and well trained martial arts teachers it may be that they do not see spirituality, if you will, separate from the training. Particularly if that teacher is Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc.

Is that not an agreement on the innate nature of some degree of spirituality?



Point taken[/quote]

 

[elder999]

[/color]
I see martial arts as a path to many things: physical fitness, discipline, skill and, as it's the topic, a degree of internal knowledge that can easily be moved to a deeper spirituality.
Point taken

[/quote]

Discipline is a means to an end, never an end in itself.