Where did the real Karate go?

[Autocrat]

Okay then... here goes, and no beating up on me for it... (well, not unless I type something real stoopedo!)

Where did the real karate go?

Firstly, which real karate are we refering to?
As I understand it, it was originally a bunch of moves and fighting techniques developed by various people based upon ideas that had migrated from another country.
The real purpose was to enable the practitioner to be able to kick/punch/strike seven shades out of there opponent without being hurt......(this has occured since we used tools and made weapons!)
Alternatively, if you are refering to the more accepted and "romantised" period of honour, integrity and use of force only as a last resort.... I'm not to certain that ever existed, for evey one practitioner of such conduct, there where ten who used such training to enhance their wealth, position and wellbeing by beating up others.


On the other hand.....
If we are talking about traditional karate, (or any other martial art!), compared to todays modernised sporting and showmanship styles and competitions....well, there is no comparison.... you cannot place Motzart next to M+M or madonna and make a fair comparison... the differences are to vast, the aims are non-aligned, and their is little to link the two except external ties. Those that practe a martial art for the martial side of things should know the difference.

So, IMO, I think that there should be an orgainising of the two arts, the traditional martial arts of the world, and the performance martial arts of the world, and we can compete..... they do their single kata, we do our single kata,(OK, they win for flashy bits!).... they do their syncronised kata, we'll do our syncronised kata (OK, they win again for looking cool and neat!).... then we have the sparring, (we kick their collective butts because of their flashy stuff!).

Though at this point I would like to make it clear that I DO NOT automatically assume that those who practise a traditional, ( or modern) form of martial art designed and taught for self defence to be better at violence than a practioner of a perfomance orientated sport martial art, nor do I believe that a sport martial artist will be better at looking good than a traditional based practitioner!
It's just from experience, most traditional make better fighters, most sports make better floor mats.

So, I ask, which karate are we refering to... the original "I'm training so I can kick you in", the storified "I'm honourable", or the modern "I'm a poser" ?

 

[47MartialMan]

Also to mention the weird design patterns, louds clolors, and out lavish uniforms, desined to give extra compensation for points to win.

 

[Makalakumu]

I sure do and still do. Before we had Ace Bandages, we used to use strips of car tire tubes or bicycle tubes. We were kind of crazy in some ways. My first dojo (1962) had no heat in the winter and of course no A/C in the summer. I paid a big rent of $40.00 per month.

And you sure are right, missing a class was never an option. Many arguments with my wife over the dojo. But the dojo always won out...

Some things change very little in 43 years...

My generation :asian: to you.

 

[47MartialMan]

You had bicycle tubes! Darn wish we hadn't used ladies panty hoses

 

[kishoto]

Real karate is still out there tournament and demostrations are not real karate. Tournaments are nothing but a high speed game of tag demostrations are for show form compitition has become nothing but show. These have their place in the martial arts they help keep some students interested. A good instructor will know the diffrents and teach real karate along with the flash. kishoto

 

[47MartialMan]

Real karate is still out there tournament and demostrations are not real karate. Tournaments are nothing but a high speed game of tag demostrations are for show form compitition has become nothing but show. These have their place in the martial arts they help keep some students interested. A good instructor will know the diffrents and teach real karate along with the flash. kishoto

Nice point, but some instructors do not know what "real" Karate is. Just like some that do not know what "real" Kung Fu is.

And, if one know either, it is less profitable to teach real, verses the "flash" that brings in youth cash.

 

[RRouuselot]

Real karate is still out there tournament and demostrations are not real karate. Tournaments are nothing but a high speed game of tag demostrations are for show form compitition has become nothing but show. These have their place in the martial arts they help keep some students interested. A good instructor will know the diffrents and teach real karate along with the flash. kishoto

Real karate is still out there tournament and demostrations are not real karate.

1)Tournaments are nothing but a high speed game of tag demostrations are for show form compitition has become nothing but show.

2)These have their place in the martial arts they help keep some students interested.

1)Tag? Maybe some are playing “tag” but my students sure don’t play that way. When we spar or do tournaments when someone gets “tagged” they usually get knocked on their butt with a fair amount of fuzzyness in their head. You can see some photos of it on my website in the bottom row of photos. http://www.geocities.com/ryushikan/tokyodojo.html

2)Yes it does keep a certain group of students interested. It also gives them a goal which is not a bad thing. However, training just to win trophies or just to be better than another person should be the goal but a result of quality training.

 

[RRouuselot]

Nice point, but some instructors do not know what "real" Karate is. Just like some that do not know what "real" Kung Fu is.

And, if one know either, it is less profitable to teach real, verses the "flash" that brings in youth cash.

That is so true.....

 

[Sam]

I used to go to judge and see old friends. But as time went on I became more disillusioned with what I was seeing. I started to become judgmental and I did not like that, so I just stopped going to tournaments.

This has become a very common phenomena among us "Old farts" -by that I mean those of us who started training in the early eighties or before that.

Sometimes I wonder if our old school attitude is part of the problem. Maybe staying away out of disgust IS part of the problem. What would happen if a bunch of us old farts showed up together at a tournament to judge and the majority of the judges in each ring were traditionalists? People do the flashy stuff because it wins. If it didn't win, they'd be doing traditional forms.

To me open tourneys have always been somewhat of a joke. I went to one a long time ago and was asked to judge the senior black belt competition (4th degree and above). I had just got my shodan

I told them this and they didn't even bat an eyelash before saying it didn't matter.

For the heck of it I entered the kata competition. I took fourth and afterwards 3 of the judges walked up and told me it was too bad my form was so short- they would have put me in first if it had been longer cuz I showed more power, focus, and balance thanthe other competitiors. I took that as "we care more about quantity than quality". Only problem is, I would have needed to combine 3 of the traditional Goju forms back to back as one kata to match the average length of the other forms.

Never went to another open tourney again.

And BTW Robert- it used to be that the kind of sparring you do was done with only a mouthpiece, cup, and knuckle pads. Things HAVE changed.

 

[The Kai]

Sam

I see the haloed green and gold in you avatar-your from the Badger state?

Tournaments are a joke, and frustrating. We emphasis them for underbelts not for the shodans.
However, you don't change a system from the outside. Entering one forms competition is hardly a full picture of the competetion. I think if all the people who say "tournaments suck (Variations therein)" Would show up we would have a different animal

 

[Sam]

Sam

I see the haloed green and gold in you avatar-your from the Badger state?

No, I grew up in Montana and have been a Packers fan since the 60's. I live in Colorado now. Broncos are nice, but they ain't the Green & Gold.

However, you don't change a system from the outside. . . I think if all the people who say "tournaments suck (Variations therein)" Would show up we would have a different animal

My point exactly. The old catch 22. Are we staying away because they're a joke - or are they a joke because we're staying away?

Actually, I competed fairly regularly for about 5 years in traditional tournaments, then realized it really wasn't doing anything for my Karate (and yes I was winning so it's not because I was doing poorly).

 

[RRouuselot]

1) My point exactly. The old catch 22. Are we staying away because they're a joke - or are they a joke because we're staying away?

Actually, I competed fairly regularly for about 5 years in traditional tournaments, then realized it really wasn't doing anything for my Karate (and yes I was winning so it's not because I was doing poorly).

1) I think they are kind of a joke because they prove/solve nothing other than they prove that one person can “play” within the rules better than another. For example, I had a friend that I trained with for fun on many occasions. He was really into the traditional point sparring tournaments and was a top rated tournament “fighter” in Japan at that time. If we followed the tournament “rules” they use in the JKF/JKA he would win most of the time, but if we did full contact, knock down, submission type sparring with basically no rules (no groin strikes or biting etc) his punches, kicks and other techniques had little effect on me and I never lost.



2) I think you made several good points.
Most people that have been in tournaments realize they don’t much for improving “real” karate.

 

[kensen83]

I am not a solid karate practioner, my style is shaolin kempo karate that has many karate movments and techniques associated with it, however i feel compelled to write on this topic. When i first started many many years ago the tornments were much diffrent then today, the movies and the media have transformed tornuments into an exibition in theatrics, much like the chinese opera, now this is not nesicarly a bad thing, i mean lets face it the kids that do these tornuments are incredibly talented and deserve respect, however without a doubt they are not studying techinques tht will save them in the street. ON the same track however the school that i formaly taught at had normal classes were we focused maininly on traditional aspects and self defence, if people wished to learn the tornment type of things they would join the demo team and have seperate classes in regard to that, in essence we kept it seperate, i myself would instead go to full contact tornments or even mma competitions to test my martail skills, but i do not feel the spirit of the martail arts has left us, if u find a true non mcdogo with a good master you will still learn and live by the spirit of the martail arts.

 

[BruceCalkins]

Real Karate & Kung-Fu has been killed by Attitude. Attitudes like many have on this web site. All "True" respect is gone. True training has been pushed aside for profit. If you make what you have look better more people will pay you more to learn it. Like the XMA. It is all flash and wire work. I looks good but while someone is spinning 30 times in the air to throw 1 kick, they have been hit 5 times. I don't want to say that it has no place. It is great for the Shows, Demos and displays for art and form. (This is a martial ART) But, It has no foundation in real Martial Arts. Mike Chat is a fine artist and will train you both ways.
As for a Comment made earlier about KATA.... Does anyone really remember what Kata was...?
Kata was a Master Instructors way to Show his Art. When a nw student came to train the master could show him his heart through his form. Instructors today have lost that. Instead of designing our Kata to show our system we steal from other masters and teach theirs. That is lazy. In our system we do use 5 Forms from dofferent systems Like Seisan Kata from Isshin-Ryu and others like Kicking Set from Kenpo Karate Also Taikiyoko Kata and Bassai Dai. These are used to work Basics. Kicking Set for Ballance, Taikiyoko for Stance and Movement, Seisan for Power and Sanchin. But once our students learn these forms we have them build their own Kata.. I want to see, "David Form 1" , "Tina Form 1" and so on. This is there heart and on the day that they open their schools I want them to be able to teach their students not only the style they learned but to show them their heart and what they love about the arts.

 

[47MartialMan]

Real Karate has been replaced with mock-ups. Lets use the analogy of the Katana. look at all of the afyer-market "blades".

Real Kung Fu is no different. For example, the so-called Kung Fu uniform was not originally design to represent a martial art nor train in.

However, as time/era change, instructors of "real" had many students whom became instructors and/or branched off with their own versions.

So because it is altered, is it still "real"?

As far as tournaments, this is "real", but are we actually talking about "traditional"?

Most martial artists realize that tournaments are not a depiction of actual combat

 

[RRouuselot]

1)[font=&quot] [/font]Real Karate & Kung-Fu has been killed by Attitude. Attitudes like many have on this web site.

2)[font=&quot] [/font]All "True" respect is gone. True training has been pushed aside for profit. If you make what you have look better more people will pay you more to learn it. Like the XMA. It is all flash and wire work. I looks good but while someone is spinning 30 times in the air to throw 1 kick, they have been hit 5 times. I don't want to say that it has no place. It is great for the Shows, Demos and displays for art and form. (This is a martial ART) But, It has no foundation in real Martial Arts. Mike Chat is a fine artist and will train you both ways.

3)[font=&quot] [/font]As for a Comment made earlier about KATA.... Does anyone really remember what Kata was...? Kata was a Master Instructors way to Show his Art. When a new student came to train the master could show him his heart through his form. Instructors today have lost that. Instead of designing our Kata to show our system we steal from other masters and teach theirs. That is lazy.

4)[font=&quot] [/font]In our system we do use 5 Forms from dofferent systems Like Seisan Kata from Isshin-Ryu and others like Kicking Set from Kenpo Karate Also Taikiyoko Kata and Bassai Dai. These are used to work Basics. Kicking Set for Ballance, Taikiyoko for Stance and Movement, Seisan for Power and Sanchin.

5)[font=&quot] [/font]But once our students learn these forms we have them build their own Kata.. I want to see, "David Form 1" , "Tina Form 1" and so on. This is there heart and on the day that they open their schools I want them to be able to teach their students not only the style they learned but to show them their heart and what they love about the arts.

1)[font=&quot] [/font]No I think it has been killed by over ranked “Soke” that can’t stick with any one art for a length of time to learn much and then form some martial art claiming it is a better mouse trap.

2)[font=&quot] [/font]For who? People like wannnbe Soke?

3)[font=&quot] [/font]By this comment you show your lack of understanding of martial arts.

4)[font=&quot] [/font] Again, you show your lack of knowledge by these comments.

5)[font=&quot] [/font]Great…. people with little or know training developing kata & techniques. That is just dumb.

 

[RRouuselot]

1)[font=&quot] [/font]Real Karate has been replaced with mock-ups.

2)[font=&quot] [/font]Lets use the analogy of the Katana. look at all of the afyer-market "blades".

3)[font=&quot] [/font]Real Kung Fu is no different. For example, the so-called Kung Fu uniform was not originally design to represent a martial art nor train in.

4)[font=&quot] [/font]However, as time/era change, instructors of "real" had many students whom became instructors and/or branched off with their own versions.

5)[font=&quot] [/font]Most martial artists realize that tournaments are not a depiction of actual combat

1)[font=&quot] [/font]I still see real MA all the time.

2)[font=&quot] [/font]That’s a poor analogy. again, I see many real katana…

3)[font=&quot] [/font]Chinese people usually just train in their regular clothes or “traditional” clothes.

4)[font=&quot] [/font]Long ago most teachers didn’t have that many students.

5)[font=&quot] [/font]No Duh…..

 

[47MartialMan]

1)I still see real MA all the time.

2)That’s a poor analogy. again, I see many real katana…

3)Chinese people usually just train in their regular clothes or “traditional” clothes.

4)Long ago most teachers didn’t have that many students.

5)No Duh…..

1.) Real meaning far less in most places.

2.) Much spin-off Katanas...whee you are located is the exception. (Same as karate)

3.) Yes, that was what I was implying.

4.) I didnt mean many like a lot, many as a general amount per the situation.

5.) Chill on the sarcasim

 

[evenflow1121]

I see it as two schools of thoughts that have evolved through prob the last 2 decades or so. One is self defense, and the other is competition. There are schools that focus primarily on competition and not self defense (usually get the flashy flips and musical forms and all that nonesense), and then there are those that focus more on self defense. That is not to say that a school that competes in tourney sparring or forms is not a self defense school, they may be, but there are schools out there that primarily focus on trophy farming, and all they do all year round is prepare for tourneys. When you are in this type of school, well you just have to innovate so its more than likely that you will see the flips and flashes and poor handling of weapons that come with it. You see there is a marketing factor for these kinds of schools, if they can get their students to display those bad boys in their schools, a lot of people will pass by and think you are the king of karate or something and enroll or get their kids to enroll. There are certainly exceptions to this, not everyone that displays trophies is like this, but I am sure if you've been around MA's for a while you know what I am referring to.

I know there are still good tournaments out there with real karate, but it all comes back to the consumer, I personally see performance art as worthless and prefer self defense, but I know other people that are just in it to win trophies. Some people love the flash, and love the show, irrespective of them actually knowing how to use a weapon correctly, or whether they can pronounce the actual name of the weapon (ie--if your teacher refers to nunchaku as numchucks, something is wrong). From a personal experience, when I was younger and before I discovered Kenpo, I was in one of these tourney farm schools. Competing in tournaments atleast 7 times a year, and winning 1st place most of the time, however, it did very little for me in the way of self defense, and unfortunately I discovered this the old fashioned way as I entered my first year in middle school many years ago.

 

[47MartialMan]

Reminds me of a Sonny China movie. i think he had portrayed a Mas charecter. He had entered a tourney a won first place. But he wasnt there for the win. he was there ti see what happened to old verses ctourney. Anyway, another practitoner was there and was impressed. He followed out telling him he forgot his trophy. Chiba asked what the trophy was for. The other guy said it was to show he was the best in Karate. Chiba smashed it on the gruond and said the best at "Karate Dancing". Or something like this. Anyone know the movie?