Where did the real Karate go?

[Han-Mi]

There are more kids in martial arts and the acrobatics keep there attention easier because it is flashy. I am only 20 yrs old, but I have the same oppinion that this mixture of MA, acrobatics and dancing that they call XMA, is merely performance and not MA at all. I recently quit competing in the traditoinal forms of a circuit because they will not split traditional forms from open forms in the grand champion rounds... It is nearly impossible to compete against the flips and tricks now days. I just wish I could get those guys in the ring for 1 round, but they NEVER do sparring of any sort in competitions.

 

[okinawagojuryu]

I'm glad that other young people feel the same way as I ( Do I still qualify as young-32?, lol ) . As long as we keep thinking the way we do , real Karate wont go away , just wont be at those circus's , oh , I mean tounaments . Just keep on training , & our generation will be the one that will lead to the truth .

David Somers
www.okinawagojuryu.org

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Fumio Demura had an interesting thing to say about sport karate kata: "I wished my students trained kata that much," or words to that effect. His point was that these folks train their forms about two and a half hours a day. That's for one form, and maybe their tie breaker.

As for the deplorable behavior of the participants...judges, parents, competitors. I agree.

Regards,


Steve

 

[brothershaw]

The thing is kids today watch movies and see the flashy stuff, in addition Wu-Shu which poopularized and promoted by the chinese govt ( which is different from traditional kung fu ) is also popular. NOw all these schools want to pay rent and keep the kids coming back so make a karate version of wu-shu., in addition to adding some cardio kick- boxing.
I saw the discovery channel special on XMA or whatever they called it and see it as just a wu-shu rip off. Dont get me wrong it takes a tremendous amount of skill and work but its not really old school Chinese martial arts or more traditional hard nosed karate.
Although I am now into chinese and filipine arts I did spend some time in kyokushin and shorin ryu so i have some knowledge of what I am talking about. Honestly most people no matter what they study dont want to train any harder or rougher than they have to, or longer than they have to or even practice stuff at home so they can do it better when in class. And I dont consider myself "hardcore".

 

[okinawagojuryu]

I really do'nt think training hardcore , if you will is traditional , in Karate . In Okinawa , the training I've been exposed to is very laid back . It is pretty much one on one , or small groups . I think that either this hardcore type of training is either , the Japanese approach , or perhaps a western approach to Karate . We have to remember , that much of what is taught within the US , was brought here by many former G.I.'s , that trained for a short period of time , perhaps 2-3 years . So they came back to the US , as former GI's , and have taught PT from within the military , & the military attitude was added , as well . So , alot of people that brought Karate to the US , back in the 60's never returned to Okinawa , & have been teaching basic Karate , which they trained for a short time , over 30+ years ago . I think , not only are they gonna forget material , but their gonna forget approach to training , as well . Just my 2 yen worth .

David Somers
www.okinawagojuryu.org

 

[Ken H]

I have very limited experience in karate (studied Shorin Ryu for a few years MANY years ago) but have a feeling the answer to this question is most likely similar to the the answer of "Where did the real Judo go?".

Tournaments and the techniques favored by their participants have overshadowed the more subtle aspects of the true art and dictated what is being taught in the majority of dojos across the country. Sad to say alot of instructors just don't care about preserving the true essence of the traditional art and will "customize" their style to fit whatever the new flavor of the month is or whatever whim the student with $60 is looking for.

There are still plenty of good schools and instructors out there though, they're just not advertising on the giganto-double-splash-page in the yellow pages which is just well and good by me...

-Ken

 

[Ken H]

Galvin San ,

Thank you very much ! We do our best to preserve , & promote traditional Okinawan/Japanese Martial Arts . Are you too located in FL ?
Also , Mark70Z , do you train , as well , or is it just your son ? If you do , would you be interested in comming out sometime , or Prof. , to our get together's/training sessions ?

David

How often do you get together? I'm down in Palm Beach County, but it would be well worth the trip to meet some good people and do a few roundhouses (must dust the cobwebs off of my legs first...)!

-Ken

 

[okinawagojuryu]

Hey there Ken , we are actually having a get together in Tampa on Sunday the 23rd , if you're interested , please lemme know . If you want more info about the group , please ck out this link : http://www.angelfire.com/fl5/okinawagojuryu/kenkyukai.html

David

 

[Ken H]

David,

Thank you. Will contact you through the link you provided.

-Ken

 

[Scout_379]

whoa whoa whoa! back up a sec. maybe I don't watch enough tv, but somebody PLEASE, tell me that the "X" in XMA doesn't stand for extreme!:rofl:

almost a joke post, but seriously, this creeps me out!:erg:

 

[digitalronin]

They posted this at a different forum that caters more the RBSD crowd, but its very funny. check it out.


http://www.selfdefenseforums.com/images/casting.mpeg

 

[brothershaw]

Would you try to attack someone who could do that? lol

 

[The Prof]

You Are correct, they can call themselves what ever they want. But in a life or death situation, I would call them dead. Self defense it just that, it's not that very entertaining movie crap that will protect a person or their loved ones.

Yes, "Art has many meanings." Self defense has only one. Survival is an every day reality.

Fact is fact and fiction is fiction, just as a cat is a cat and a mouse is a mouse.

This is just an opinion of one old warrior who has been there and done that.

The Prof

They can call themselves whatever they like, as can you.

"Art" has many meanings.

And "Martial Arts" is more commonly associated with the theatrical methods then anything else anyways, so it would seem that it is not they that lost the fight for the name

A judged, Choreographed routine is about putting on a show, nothing more. Doesn't matter what it is called, that is the goal.

 

[The Prof]

Hi Sensei,

You are so right about bunkai. Very few of those theatrical martial artists have little or no clue as to what bunkai is or how it is applicable to their kata.
Take the bunkai out of kata defeats the purpose of the kata and waters down the style.

While I am not a Karateka, I am not ignorant when it comes to good Karate or Kata. I love to see a good performance and thoroughly enjoy the application of bunkai.

But to hell with that stuff, it takes too much discipline and probably adds time between ranks. You know we can't have that. Not good for the ego.

Yes sir, the old way is still the best way in so many ways. Yours was a great response.

Blessings, :asian:

The Prof

Pleae look up the word Martial in the dictionary , Andrew . True Kata , is not theatrical , you are practicing life protection skills . Your reply indicates , that you do not understand Kata , & might as well be dancing , or perhaps gymnastics , because that is the garbage that is at todays tournaments . It makes me sick !
Mark , it would take much more than us to start a new circuit . If we could get more people involved , it might work out . I have'nt competed in years , & most of the people I train w/ dont compete anymore , or never competed at all .
I'm getting to the point , where it's nothing but a waste of time , & money to compete . Tournaments these days cost sooo much money , all it's good for , is to make the promoters pockets fat . My Karate now , is for me . Not for anyone else . I dont need somone who has no clue as to what I'm doin , or any clue as to the bunkai of the kata , to tell me if i'm doin the kata right , or wrong . As far as the fighting is concerned it's a joke ! If they would try that game of tag on the street , they would get hurt . For kids , tournaments are ok , because it helps build their confidence , etc . But , as adults their nothing more than a waste of time ! I'd much rather spend my money on training , or taking my wife to a movie , or something , than goin to a cirus like that !

David

 

[The Prof]

Hi Sensei,

You are right on target with your answer. But I guess that we should try to understand that in the life of a "fantasy martial artist" looking stupid does not count, after all, it not real.

Blessings,:asian:

The Prof

1) And by doing so can look totally stupid. Someone that does jujutsu cannot call what they do Arnis. (but I guess according to you they can because you are just arguing semasiology and not really the issue)

2) According to who? You? here is what I found in my dictionary:
Martial Arts: a system of combat and self-defense, for example, judo or karate, developed especially in Japan and Korea

 

[The Prof]

Hi Sensei,

David Roth is the best bet for information on this coast. He was my very first Black Belt Student in Niseido Ju Jitsu and Judo here in Florida. He is what sold me on the AAU. He is quite a particular guy. He played all the games and finally had enough.

I know that David is very strick when it come to fairness in judging, respect, and for following the rules to the letter.

The Prof

They do have tournaments in FL , but not many . Here is the contact info , for the AAU directors of FL :

Florida


Regional Director Dave Roth
P.O. Box 2427
Vero Beach, FL 32961
772-563-9333 (O)
Email: [email protected]

Florida Gold Coast Douglas Stein
12299 SW 112 St.
Miami, FL 33186
305-373-4900
305-373-6914 (Fax)
Email: [email protected]

You might also wanna ck out The USANKF , here's their site : http://www.usankf.org/ , not sure if they have anything in FL though .

David

 

[The Prof]

Hi Sensei,

Thanks for the info on Shihan Boggs. Yes for sure is is part of the "real deal" in the martial arts community. He has quite an impressive MA resume.

Blessings,

The Prof

Here is a former student of my teacher who is now a Member, Board of Directors & Member, Coaching Committee for the AAU.

http://www.usjujitsu.net/bio/boggs/

 

[The Prof]

Hi Mark,

Great response, "out the window with the almighty dollar." Actually that pretty much sums up this whole thing. What a great answer.

Blessings,
The Prof

Yow!, sounds like another old guys lament. However, I qualify as an 'old guy', so I know and am disgusted by the same things. I've watched it continue to slide down hill since 1964 and it wasn't real good then.

Where did the real Karate go? Simple: Out the window when the almighty dollar crept in!

Want a return to reality? Host a tournament without entry fees, judges, or throphies. Let them all spar, do kata, and demonstrate self defense techniques with nothing more than some old guys to keep the younger tempers in line. That's the way we used to play sandlot baseball. We picked even teams and if they weren't even we adjusted. We played for hours and solved the disputes without having to call the police to separate out of control parents. Organized ball (i.e., LittleLeague) wasn't even a close second.

Likelyhood is you won't have too many attendees but you will most likely develop some new life long relationships.

Just my opinion. Have a nice day.

Mark Galvin

 

[The Prof]

Hi Ken,

I have sent you a personal message. I hope to hear from you.

Blessings,

The Prof

I have very limited experience in karate (studied Shorin Ryu for a few years MANY years ago) but have a feeling the answer to this question is most likely similar to the the answer of "Where did the real Judo go?".

Tournaments and the techniques favored by their participants have overshadowed the more subtle aspects of the true art and dictated what is being taught in the majority of dojos across the country. Sad to say alot of instructors just don't care about preserving the true essence of the traditional art and will "customize" their style to fit whatever the new flavor of the month is or whatever whim the student with $60 is looking for.

There are still plenty of good schools and instructors out there though, they're just not advertising on the giganto-double-splash-page in the yellow pages which is just well and good by me...

-Ken

 

[RRouuselot]

Hi Sensei,

You are so right about bunkai. Very few of those theatrical martial artists have little or no clue as to what bunkai is or how it is applicable to their kata.
Take the bunkai out of kata defeats the purpose of the kata and waters down the style.

While I am not a Karateka, I am not ignorant when it comes to good Karate or Kata. I love to see a good performance and thoroughly enjoy the application of bunkai.

The Prof

Just out of curiosity what kind of bunkai do you see in Karate kata? Can you give some specific examples from specific kata?