What to train for reality?

Discussion in 'Security and Bouncers' started by Kababayan, Sep 14, 2017.

  1. Kababayan

    Kababayan Green Belt

    Joined:
    May 7, 2017
    Messages:
    183
    Likes Received:
    65
    Trophy Points:
    43
    I don't teach anymore. I'm sorry if I have the impression that I did. I had a full-time dojo for ten years but sold it years ago. My question was more geared towards what I would be telling my students (If I still had them). Sorry that I didn't make that clear. I guess I was so focused on getting my question out. I was offered to teach at the local community center recently. I may at some point. I will never run a commercial school again. I've got a ton of stories to share about that experience. I'm sure a lot of us "full-timers" do. Maybe I'll start a thread for those...

    Thanks again.
     
  2. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2015
    Messages:
    3,553
    Likes Received:
    1,967
    Trophy Points:
    403
    Location:
    In the dojo
    Too much distance (excluding the clinch) and dancing around for my taste. I'd rather do this...


    They reportedly head punch (with protective gear) and ground fight in the dojo, but not in formal competition.
     
  3. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    15,524
    Likes Received:
    3,445
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Nobody is forcing you to dance around. You can stand and trade if you want. It gives you the chance to mess around with concepts at a more realistic pace.

    Otherwise Kudo does pretty much what you want there.
     
  4. Kababayan

    Kababayan Green Belt

    Joined:
    May 7, 2017
    Messages:
    183
    Likes Received:
    65
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Here is a response from a correctional officer with 15 years experience. If you are new to the thread my initial request was to hear real experiences from law enforcement and bouncers about the most common attacks that they have seen from their actual experience. Please keep in mind that this is from his personal experience, and his may be quite different than others. I was looking for responses from law enforcement, bouncers, or security professional specifically, as to strengthen the validity of the response. My goal was to gain knowledge from those who have "lived it". I paraphrased some of the responses for brevity:

    - Most people will throw hay makers to the head.
    - If an attacker gets you to the ground, they will wrap your legs or straddle you and punch to your face or head.
    - There is usually more than one attacker, especially in a bar or parking lot.
    - Regarding weapons, you should plan on getting cut or hit [that way it's not a shock if you do.]
    - If you have learned weapon defenses, practice them A LOT before you try to use it is a real situation.
    - Practice your techniques on different sizes of people to see what works and what doesn't.
    - Have more than one defense against a particular attack in case the first one doesn't work.
    - Sometimes the best option is to run.
    - The most important thing is to never give up.
    - Martial arts will give you an edge but you don't need to be an expert fighter to win.
    - Speed is better than strength when it comes to striking.
    - Fights are sloppy...it's not like in the movies.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  5. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2015
    Messages:
    3,553
    Likes Received:
    1,967
    Trophy Points:
    403
    Location:
    In the dojo
    Yeah, that was more the individual than the style itself. I didn't mean to imply all shoot fighters fight like that, especially outside of the ring.

    Edit: I've been intrigued by Kudo/Daido Juku for a while, but it's pretty much non-existent in the US.
     
  6. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    7,877
    Likes Received:
    4,651
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Maui
    Been in police work since the eighties. Bounced for ten years before that. Gee, good thing I've never run into a guy who was "bigger" "stronger". Oh, dear, what to do?
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  7. CDR_Glock

    CDR_Glock Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2016
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Situational awareness is first and foremost the most important. Avoidance or deescalation is the better part of valor. When I foresee or sense hostility, it's time to safely leave. But I take a look at surroundings and consider any object as fair game for a weapon. A beer bottle, a stool, a paper towel dispenser, framed picture on the wall, or a barricade to which to retreat and increase my distance from a situation. Then again, in my older age (late 40s), crowded bars aren't my idea of fun anyways. Walking in a street with a crowd of rambunctious people, I would just cross the street. If any fight breaks out in a crowd, it's time to leave.

    Keeping a reasonable distance is also important as grappling on the ground is not my idea of defense on concrete. Many things can go wrong, even with great technique. It is best to assess a degree of impairment or aggressiveness in a split second and be pro-active rather than be reactive.

    When faced with a group of gang members I was able to deescalate and reason with them, rather than get into a skirmish.

    Always have something to aid in your own defense, be it your element of speed, quickness, or in my case, concealed carry of a firearm. It is a violent world that we live in, and more and more attacks are by groups as opposed to dealing with people one on one. There are no rules or codes of conduct. There is no knowledge of whether someone has a blood borne illness that can be life changing.

    As much as martial arts is a great tool, it, to me, is a mindset. My goal is to use basic techniques to get distance from my attacker(s), block a strike, sidestep an attack, and draw upon them, if necessary, particularly if there is a disparity of force.

    This maybe controversial to many of you but this is stark reality.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2017
  8. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2017
    Messages:
    4,389
    Likes Received:
    545
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    - Most people will throw hay makers to the head.

    apart from the ones that try to head but you

    - If an attacker gets you to the ground, they will wrap your legs or straddle you and punch to your face or head.

    no they will most likely start kicking or stamping you

    - There is usually more than one attacker, especially in a bar or parking lot.

    depends

    - Regarding weapons, you should plan on getting cut or hit [that way it's not a shock if you do.]

    no this is silly. plan on not getting cut, that's a good plan


    - If you have learned weapon defenses, practice them A LOT before you try to use it is a real situation.

    yes get someone to swing a base ball bat wildly at you to practise

    - Practice your techniques on different sizes of people to see what works and what doesn't.

    no practise you technique on a fully resistant partner who is going to punch you very hard in the,ear, if you make,a mistake

    - Have more than one defense against a particular attack in case the first one doesn't work.

    you only get one go at a defence, after that its to late, he hit you

    - Sometimes the best option is to run.

    make,sure you can do a hundred in good time

    - The most important thing is to never give up.

    some times you don't have,a choice

    - Martial arts will give you an edge but you don't need to be an expert fighter to win.

    no you just need to be better than the other one, two or three guys

    - Speed is better than strength when it comes to striking.

    not if you want to knock them out , it isnt

    - Fights are sloppy...it's not like in the movies.

    no fight are hard and brutal and messy[/QUOTE]
     
  9. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    15,524
    Likes Received:
    3,445
    Trophy Points:
    308
    The thing with the shoot boxing is you can take that mechanism and play with it if you want to go all schoolyard. So if you want to do screaming,swearing sucker punch drills. You could. You just set it so one person gets the first shot.

    You at least get a look at how the basic mechanics work. That way if you do want to fine tune your street. You are not fine tuning the wrong thing.

    The idea that street fighters will always throw a right for example. I mean if they don't you are boned. But maybe if you can force that right or even just have realistic response time by managing your distances well. It will go a lot further to making someone street capable. Than training based on stories and hope.
     
  10. blackbird207

    blackbird207 White Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2017
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Hello, guys, I am new to this forum, so I would like to apologise in advance if I am asking this in the wrong forum, but I recently saw a video on facebook and I really liked this tecnique. Generally, I am looking for a self-defense art for very practical sutiations- on the street, multiple attackers, dealing against attackers with knives/batons, so I would be grateful, if you can tell me the name of this martial art from from he video and if it is legit for my purpose, if not what would you recommend? Thank you very much!
     
  11. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2015
    Messages:
    3,553
    Likes Received:
    1,967
    Trophy Points:
    403
    Location:
    In the dojo
    You should start your own thread rather than posting in someone else's.
     
  12. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    15,524
    Likes Received:
    3,445
    Trophy Points:
    308
    The video is mostly stupid.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Dislike Dislike x 1
  13. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2017
    Messages:
    4,389
    Likes Received:
    545
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    the guy is called Fred mastro and its his own system,
    it almost certainly won't look as good if you do it
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. mograph

    mograph Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2008
    Messages:
    1,376
    Likes Received:
    418
    Trophy Points:
    123
    I think you have the potential for a great list. Watching this thread. Thanks for starting it.
     
  15. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    7,877
    Likes Received:
    4,651
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Maui
    StrikeaPose2.jpg

    Strike a pose. You can do it.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  16. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    15,957
    Likes Received:
    4,527
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    He didn't say the person was stupid. He said the video was. And there are a lot of problems with what's seen in the video. Those problems aren't uncommon during a teaching sequence, but the video was chosen to make the practitioner look good, by leveraging those problems.
     
  17. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,094
    Likes Received:
    2,127
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Michigan
    Train to protect yourself against these. This is how it looks.

     
  18. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    15,957
    Likes Received:
    4,527
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    Okay, for some reason it took a LOOONG time for the video to load. While waiting, it just showed a blank, black box. I thought, "****! I have no defense against that!"
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,094
    Likes Received:
    2,127
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Michigan
    LOL!

    So for any who can't see the video, here's what it showed, primarily. A series of videos of street fights of various kinds. One on one, multiple attackers, out-and-out melees.

    Most showed fights that (IMHO) could have been avoided. In other words, pretty much willing combatants in every case. If you're a willing combatant and you could have walked away, you're not engaging in self-defense, again in my opinion. You choose to fight in the street, you get what you get. Whatever happens, it's pretty much on you.

    Some of the fighters were clearly untrained. Some clearly had some experience fighting or some actual training or a combination of both. Few seemed to exhibit anything like trained discipline or more than a few basic techniques, even if they had some skills. Some were very fast, some quite slow. Many were intoxicated.

    Note no kicks (at least none that I recalled seeing, I skipped around some). Very little grappling, and in such cases, the fighters tried to regain their feet rather than intentionally choosing to go to the ground.

    Head shots ruled the encounters, and mostly looping hooks and overhand rights and lefts. Lots of bluffs, chest-bumping monkey dances, etc.

    So...some conclusions.

    1) Don't be there. Most of those locations could be avoided and should have been, IMHO.

    2) If you find yourself there, leave. Most of the fighters could have walked away instead of fighting as far as I can tell.

    3) If someone chest bumps you, take them out. The monkey dance has several negatives associated with it. Their friends gather, a circle forms, the chest-bumper builds up his courage with his buddies egging him on, ultimately he will fight and you can't escape. Fight on your terms, not his. He takes off his shirt, either run or kick his *** instantly. Waiting for the escalation is a sucker game.

    4) Verbal exchanges are a waste of time. Don't engage verbally except to say something like "I don't want to fight you, please leave me alone." That is to establish yourself as the victim rather than the aggressor. Other than that, don't argue, disagree, or try to engage in discussion with the aggressor. He wants to fight, not talk. I guarantee he won't 'see reason' or allow himself to be talked down. He's using your words to justify his continued and escalated aggression in his own mind. Promise. It won't work, don't try.

    5) Defend against the overhand right and/or sloppy hooks. That's their bread and butter. Don't let it land, counter it with your technique such that they cannot continue. Then leave, immediately.

    6) Whether you have to fight or not, leave. Staying is death. You can call the cops and give your side of the story from a safe location. You have no friends in the crowd. In fact, in one of the clips, a guy just standing around watching threw in a couple head kicks to the guy who lost the fight, then walked away like nothing happened. He wasn't even part of the fight, he just decided to kick the loser for some reason. Pure pack mentality.

    Getting back to what to specifically train - here's your answer. This is how street fights look most of the time. The looping head shot is the most common attack of all. Learn to defend against that and you're 80% of the way there. Learn counters that stop them before they can throw another punch. Don't get fancy. Don't go to the ground willingly (unless you're a grappler I guess, but I'm not, so that's my advice). Leave the moment you can, before or after a fight in the street.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. Thisposthuman

    Thisposthuman Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2017
    Messages:
    22
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    Texas
    I work in private security and can echo whats been put forth by the LE that has responded. Bad guys generally open with heavy hand haymaker. being a kravist, i burst inward with 360 defense and simultaneous palm heel strike.
     
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page