"Getting at MMA people" isn't nearly the same as fraud busting.
What style is this?
- Thread starter TigerHeart
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I didn't say it was, you can see what I said, 'getting at MMA' people.
drop bear
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I can see it if the handles are different. So they have latched on to an elbow plate or so ething.
Having trained a bit of kudo which is mma with a gi, if you always have a handle to latch on to, striking gets clinched up all the time.
Martial D
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Well, that does look like mma with a gi on. I must have missed the part with all the spastic shaking and arm waving while sipping my coffee I guess.
drop bear
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Imagine they are grip breaks. So someone has a sleve or a collar and you are tearing them off it. And you are waving your arm like a spastic to loosen them off you.
Which seems a more useful device if you are holding a weapon (as would probably be the case if you're wearing armor), rather than loosing grip on the weapon to break the grip.
Langenschwert
Master Black Belt
Those long kiai are seen In other arts such as Jigen Ryu. It's surprisingly exhausting.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Christ, what a mess....
柳生心眼流甲冑拳法竹翁舎
Yagyu Shingan Ryu Katchu Kempo Chikuosha.
Suburi Niju-ichi Kajo Ura Gata Mifuri.
Yep, that was likely me.
The Yagyu Shingan Ryu is taught in a number of branches/lines today, with three being the most prominent. Besides this line, there is Yagyu Shingan Ryu Katchu Heiho, passed down through Sato Kinbei and found in the Genbukan and Daiwado organisations, which shares a great deal of it's lineage and technical methods with the Chikuosha group (Katchu Kempo) above. There is also the Edo line, formerly referred to as the Goto-ha, also known as Yagyu Shingan Ryu Taijutsu (although the line also includes a range of weaponry).
The Chikuosha group is headed by Shimizu Kenji sensei, who learnt a number of branches of the Sendai lines of Yagyu Shingan Ryu from various instructors, and recompiled them into the modern form, which he labeled as Chikuosha ("Old Bamboo House"). In establishing the Chikuosha line, he revived a number of practices into the ryu, such as the more unusual stepping methods, a range of the medical and spiritual practices (exemplified in their very unusual, but highly powerful approach to body mechanics, utilising aspects such as their "Yama Seigan" positioning...), and a large number of conditioning exercises, the concept of Mifuri (body turning, more than "shaking") being one of them. I'll give a more detailed insight into this practice in a bit, as it's being misunderstood even through this thread.
No, it doesn't. No comments there show any insight, and the name simply says "Weird Martial Art".
Absolutely.
One aside I'll make is that this particular clip has been uploaded a number of times, all with a complete lack of appreciation or understanding of what it actually is showing, due to exactly the miscomprehension that Brendan is talking about here... where there is a minimalist grasp of anything outside of the particular frame of reference a person may have... whether that is simply MMA (as a trainee or as a spectator), more "mainstream" martial arts, such as karate, TKD, BJJ, or anything else, or just watching a lot of movies... which also leads to some misunderstanding due to the fact that these (very senior in cases) practitioners are wearing white belts... taken by many to show that they are beginners. They are not.
The white belts are worn to be symbolic of the sarashi (belt) worn with armour.... which were always white. The thick belt sometimes seen on less aware practitioners are only meant to be on the armour when it's displayed, not worn when the armour is.
For a wider context, though, the clip in the OP is about 2 minutes out of an 82 minute DVD, coming about halfway through it.... so, here is the entire video, complete with the English translation voiceover. If you have the time, I do recommend that any who thought. it was "a spoof"... "a joke"... "a comedy routine"... or in any way less than a very genuine training method from an art that predates what most of you think of as "traditional martial arts", take the time to watch the entire video.
Nice clip, Brendan! Pity about the transfer quality from those old VHS tapes... oh, when those were the only way we could see such arts!
Okay, as to the rest of this discussion, I'm only going to go over a couple of posts...
Irene, we've known each other here a long time, yeah? You know the respect I have for you, and for the way you stand up for what you feel and believe in... but you've seriously come at this completely wrong. Brendan has been 100% accurate the entire time... whether you like the way he expressed his position or not, he is completely correct. And, considering he entered a thread to offer an accurate piece of information where each and every post (save one) up to then had been dismissive, ridiculing, and worse regarding something that is held in high esteem by himself and myself, his attempt to use a more "light-hearted" turn of phrase is completely understandable, as well as in no way violating any rules or by laws of the site.
With regards to your comment here, that is nowhere near what Brendan said. He said, pretty simply, that, with todays prominence of sporting arts such as MMA being the only, or primary reference point, with shows like the UFC's TUF showing the training (at least, aspects of it), much of the mystique of such things are removed... but it also makes people (not necessarily martial artists, although they are hardly safe from this) feel that, unless something fits the mold of MMA, then it is not a "martial art"... not that "MMA are not martial arts, and MMA athletes are not martial artists". He never said a thing like that.
I mean... 8 out of the first 9 replies couldn't see anything legitimately martially related in it... and the one who recognised it only recognised it due to previously reading a thread where the same question was answered (by me). Which means we have at least 9 or 10 martial artists here who couldn't see this clip as actually being genuine martial arts... so Brendan's comment was perfectly accurate and reasonable.
They weren't snide, he wasn't "style bashing", and he never said that MMAers were ignorant of anything. He said that "lots of people (not MMA trainees) think that if it doesn't look like MMA (doesn't fit their preconceived notions of what a martial art is), it's not martial arts." He then suggested that the reason might be the popularity of things like the UFC amongst "kids" (for the record, I agree with him completely).
Which is nothing at all to do with anything Brendan said, or argued, or commented on or about. Again, you've come into this with a (false) idea of what was being said, and have leapt to some rather off base ideas as a result.
8 out of the first 9 replies, Tez. All people commenting on the people and style in the video. All dismissive or insulting. All without seeking to see or figure out what is actually being shown in the first place. Your ire is focused in the wrong direction for that grievance.
Firstly, do you mean the initial clip itself? You do realise, as was mentioned by YPT on the first page, that this is an exercise? Secondly, what do you think is meant by "grappling"? Cause I don't think you're following what is actually being discussed, or what Brendan was highlighting.
"Spastic shaking"? Dude. Seriously.
Additionally, you know that the clip Drop Bear showed is nothing at all to do with Yagyu Shingan Ryu, and is the modern sporting art of Kudo, yeah?
Again, "like a spastic"? Really? Grow up, guys.
No, that's again missing exactly what was being shown. You were actually closest when you posted the Connor MacGregor clip... Mifuri is a conditioning exercise.
Yagyu Shingan Ryu has a large syllabus... but the first thing you learn is the jujutsu portions (they form the basic structure for the weapon work and more), beginning with postural and walking concepts, then moving onto the Omote no Kajo ("Outer Forms"). These series of techniques against a range of positions and attacks, each named for their attacking partners actions (Kataginu - single chest grab, Ryoginu - double chest grab, Eridori - collar grab, Ushiro Dori - rear grab, and so on). Each technique gives a number of possible response actions, such as striking to nerve clusters to weaken the grip, striking the arm off in various ways, a number of counter-striking actions, and finishing (typically) with a pile-driving throw. Variations are explored in the Chu-goku and Otoshi-kajo forms.
An example of the Omote no Kajo can be seen here:
The Mifuri exercise employs each of those individual movements, such as the raising strikes, or the kicks, or the elbows, or the knocking off of the arm, and they are repeated as fast as you can while using a long, powerful kakegoe (shout). This is designed not so much to work on technique (that's the regular practice and solo forms), but instead to work on conditioning, endurance, cardio, spiritual development, aerobic fitness, and more. It works on your breathing, your balance, your physical strength, and so on... but it's not designed for you to simply keep "whacking your arm into them until they let go".
Think of it like a boxer working with a speed bag... or putting weights on their wrists and ankles and picking up a skipping rope.
柳生心眼流甲冑拳法竹翁舎
Yagyu Shingan Ryu Katchu Kempo Chikuosha.
Suburi Niju-ichi Kajo Ura Gata Mifuri.
Yep, that was likely me.
The Yagyu Shingan Ryu is taught in a number of branches/lines today, with three being the most prominent. Besides this line, there is Yagyu Shingan Ryu Katchu Heiho, passed down through Sato Kinbei and found in the Genbukan and Daiwado organisations, which shares a great deal of it's lineage and technical methods with the Chikuosha group (Katchu Kempo) above. There is also the Edo line, formerly referred to as the Goto-ha, also known as Yagyu Shingan Ryu Taijutsu (although the line also includes a range of weaponry).
The Chikuosha group is headed by Shimizu Kenji sensei, who learnt a number of branches of the Sendai lines of Yagyu Shingan Ryu from various instructors, and recompiled them into the modern form, which he labeled as Chikuosha ("Old Bamboo House"). In establishing the Chikuosha line, he revived a number of practices into the ryu, such as the more unusual stepping methods, a range of the medical and spiritual practices (exemplified in their very unusual, but highly powerful approach to body mechanics, utilising aspects such as their "Yama Seigan" positioning...), and a large number of conditioning exercises, the concept of Mifuri (body turning, more than "shaking") being one of them. I'll give a more detailed insight into this practice in a bit, as it's being misunderstood even through this thread.
No, it doesn't. No comments there show any insight, and the name simply says "Weird Martial Art".
Absolutely.
One aside I'll make is that this particular clip has been uploaded a number of times, all with a complete lack of appreciation or understanding of what it actually is showing, due to exactly the miscomprehension that Brendan is talking about here... where there is a minimalist grasp of anything outside of the particular frame of reference a person may have... whether that is simply MMA (as a trainee or as a spectator), more "mainstream" martial arts, such as karate, TKD, BJJ, or anything else, or just watching a lot of movies... which also leads to some misunderstanding due to the fact that these (very senior in cases) practitioners are wearing white belts... taken by many to show that they are beginners. They are not.
The white belts are worn to be symbolic of the sarashi (belt) worn with armour.... which were always white. The thick belt sometimes seen on less aware practitioners are only meant to be on the armour when it's displayed, not worn when the armour is.
For a wider context, though, the clip in the OP is about 2 minutes out of an 82 minute DVD, coming about halfway through it.... so, here is the entire video, complete with the English translation voiceover. If you have the time, I do recommend that any who thought. it was "a spoof"... "a joke"... "a comedy routine"... or in any way less than a very genuine training method from an art that predates what most of you think of as "traditional martial arts", take the time to watch the entire video.
Nice clip, Brendan! Pity about the transfer quality from those old VHS tapes... oh, when those were the only way we could see such arts!
Okay, as to the rest of this discussion, I'm only going to go over a couple of posts...
Irene, we've known each other here a long time, yeah? You know the respect I have for you, and for the way you stand up for what you feel and believe in... but you've seriously come at this completely wrong. Brendan has been 100% accurate the entire time... whether you like the way he expressed his position or not, he is completely correct. And, considering he entered a thread to offer an accurate piece of information where each and every post (save one) up to then had been dismissive, ridiculing, and worse regarding something that is held in high esteem by himself and myself, his attempt to use a more "light-hearted" turn of phrase is completely understandable, as well as in no way violating any rules or by laws of the site.
With regards to your comment here, that is nowhere near what Brendan said. He said, pretty simply, that, with todays prominence of sporting arts such as MMA being the only, or primary reference point, with shows like the UFC's TUF showing the training (at least, aspects of it), much of the mystique of such things are removed... but it also makes people (not necessarily martial artists, although they are hardly safe from this) feel that, unless something fits the mold of MMA, then it is not a "martial art"... not that "MMA are not martial arts, and MMA athletes are not martial artists". He never said a thing like that.
I mean... 8 out of the first 9 replies couldn't see anything legitimately martially related in it... and the one who recognised it only recognised it due to previously reading a thread where the same question was answered (by me). Which means we have at least 9 or 10 martial artists here who couldn't see this clip as actually being genuine martial arts... so Brendan's comment was perfectly accurate and reasonable.
They weren't snide, he wasn't "style bashing", and he never said that MMAers were ignorant of anything. He said that "lots of people (not MMA trainees) think that if it doesn't look like MMA (doesn't fit their preconceived notions of what a martial art is), it's not martial arts." He then suggested that the reason might be the popularity of things like the UFC amongst "kids" (for the record, I agree with him completely).
Which is nothing at all to do with anything Brendan said, or argued, or commented on or about. Again, you've come into this with a (false) idea of what was being said, and have leapt to some rather off base ideas as a result.
And yes before anyone says it, I am grumpy because I'm really fed up with the way people post then make comments about other people and their styles. It's happening more and more and it's impolite to say the least not to mention bloody boring. Just why add snide remarks about any style, it's not on.
8 out of the first 9 replies, Tez. All people commenting on the people and style in the video. All dismissive or insulting. All without seeking to see or figure out what is actually being shown in the first place. Your ire is focused in the wrong direction for that grievance.
Firstly, do you mean the initial clip itself? You do realise, as was mentioned by YPT on the first page, that this is an exercise? Secondly, what do you think is meant by "grappling"? Cause I don't think you're following what is actually being discussed, or what Brendan was highlighting.
"Spastic shaking"? Dude. Seriously.
Additionally, you know that the clip Drop Bear showed is nothing at all to do with Yagyu Shingan Ryu, and is the modern sporting art of Kudo, yeah?
Again, "like a spastic"? Really? Grow up, guys.
No, that's again missing exactly what was being shown. You were actually closest when you posted the Connor MacGregor clip... Mifuri is a conditioning exercise.
Yagyu Shingan Ryu has a large syllabus... but the first thing you learn is the jujutsu portions (they form the basic structure for the weapon work and more), beginning with postural and walking concepts, then moving onto the Omote no Kajo ("Outer Forms"). These series of techniques against a range of positions and attacks, each named for their attacking partners actions (Kataginu - single chest grab, Ryoginu - double chest grab, Eridori - collar grab, Ushiro Dori - rear grab, and so on). Each technique gives a number of possible response actions, such as striking to nerve clusters to weaken the grip, striking the arm off in various ways, a number of counter-striking actions, and finishing (typically) with a pile-driving throw. Variations are explored in the Chu-goku and Otoshi-kajo forms.
An example of the Omote no Kajo can be seen here:
The Mifuri exercise employs each of those individual movements, such as the raising strikes, or the kicks, or the elbows, or the knocking off of the arm, and they are repeated as fast as you can while using a long, powerful kakegoe (shout). This is designed not so much to work on technique (that's the regular practice and solo forms), but instead to work on conditioning, endurance, cardio, spiritual development, aerobic fitness, and more. It works on your breathing, your balance, your physical strength, and so on... but it's not designed for you to simply keep "whacking your arm into them until they let go".
Think of it like a boxer working with a speed bag... or putting weights on their wrists and ankles and picking up a skipping rope.
I wanted to click 'informative' 'like' and 'agree' to different parts of that comment. I agree with your defense of Brendan, whom from what I can tell wasn't being dismissive of any martial art (at least not compared to the other commenters) and informative to all the information. I'm planning on rereading that at least 3 times to make sure I fully understand all that you wrote.
I think I go into vapor lock when I hit a situation like that, and simply fail to rate the post, at all.
drop bear
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That is why I originally posted the clip.
I may grow old but I will never grow up.
JR 137
Grandmaster
Guys don’t grow up, we just get older. Just when I think my 69 year old father is a grown up, I see the stupid things he does when he’s around his brothers and/or friends. And they’re the same stupid things he gives me a hard time about.
Danny T
Senior Master
Chris, thank you for your insight.
I certainly don't know all of the different martial systems or methods for training. I was one who looked upon this as a possible spoof. There are numerous spoofs on the martial arts meant for comedy and really don't you think it a bit comical especially to someone who has little to no knowledge as to what is happening in the video.
There are times I have students, when having difficulty getting a movement, do a mini drill which can appear very strange comical even to some one just coming in not knowing what in the world we are doing. I even laugh at us doing so. "What do you think someone walking in right now would think about seeing us do this? They would probably either laugh out loud or walk out and never come back."
I had an instructor that would periodically make the whole class do what he called the zombie walk. As an exercise in moving your hips and center, he would have everyone walk without picking up and moving their legs. You had to twist and move your hips forward in order to drag your leg up. It was actually a pretty good exercise for teaching people that had no idea how to move their center, but it looked really silly.
There are definitely things I do in class that are funny, even when they are serious training. Sometimes, I'm the only one who finds them funny. At those times, my wife is easy to spot - she's the one shaking her head, face lowered in shame.
Cheers - thought I was losing my mind for a minute there. Absolutely an abbreviated, flippant comment, and I can understand someone misreading it. No problem, but spending page after page repeatedly explaining yourself gets old.
Haha yeah.. I still remember taping the Way of the Warrior from sbs and watching it repeatedly.
Thanks for the informative post! I have seen Shimazu Shihan's video before, briefly, and a few embu, but know little about the art.
Chris, if you had to explain what another poster means then that poster has explained wrongly. He also doesn't need to insult people just because they disagree with something that is becoming more and more common on here.
Encho
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I didn't know there was a discussion on yagyu shingan ryu, a style that I practice, it is an unusual style I think compared to other styles of striking and jujutsu. I personally have not done the warm up yet and only learning the omote set so far. The forms are not very long and not many sequences or difference on the outside appearance, the sword routine is a two man set and also not very long from watching it in class.
It's a new style for me so I do not know in depth about it.
It's a new style for me so I do not know in depth about it.
