What Paul Vunak said about BJJ

[Tames D]

NO.

I already knew the answer to my question.

 

[Tez3]

Ok I know it's four pages in but who the hell is Paul Vunak?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Bruce Lee -> Dan Inosanto -> Paul Vunak

 

[Matt Bryers]

I stand firm in my original statement basically stating that:

Jiu-Jitsu based / grappling based martial arts have a stronger carry-over into reality-based self-defense than other arts.

If someone asked me "I have 6 months to train to learn some useful self-defense, what should I take?"

My answer is always going to be Combative Jiu-Jitsu / BJJ or a reality-based combat style like Krav, Filipino based. or Defence Lab. It's not going to be Karate... or similar traditional martial arts.

Until someone can show me otherwise, not just with words, I just don't trust in it's effectiveness for modern street combat.

In regards to:

CLOSING QUESTION: Can you close the distance on me faster than I can Smash you??? There's another vid out there of a rather mediocre Shorin Ryu stylist in his 1st MMA bout KO'ing with a kick to head a close-the-distance (fail) grappler who had a 3-win record of GNP. Mr. Wrestler also left on a stretcher.... I THINK THE REAL QUESTION IS WHAT IS GOING ON IN THIS VIDEO?

....asking me if I can "close the distance on you before you smash me" over the internet is just lame. I trust in my ability, but there's only one way to ever answer this question..... we try it! Which is why we have an open door policy at my school. If you want to train, spar, roll, etc - sign the waiver, pay the mat fee, and you're good to go!. So if you're ever in Connecticut:

Jiu-Jitsu and Strength Academy
229 Shunpike Rd
Cromwell, CT 06416
email: [email protected]
phone: 860-869-4843

This is not a challenge, it's just an opportunity to train. I cross-train with other schools, stylists, etc on a daily basis. There we can test, learn and improve. Saying you can smash me over the internet in quite... childish. And one of the reasons why I joined this forum over others was because I didn't see any crap like this.

And finally, I care more about percentages that one-off stories about some karate guy who beat a wrestler at some MMA fight. You're talking about a small percentage. There are legends in the cage who use their karate in MMA, (GSP / Machida / Liddell), but they have black belts in BJJ and/or a strong background in wrestling which allows them to use their karate effectively.

 

[punisher73]

I always hate hearing quotes like that, they are to generic to be of any meaning.

1 year of BJJ vs. 20 years of striking. Huh? One year of a good BJJ school vs. 20 years of a strip mall karate school with no contact sparring? Yep, I believe it. One year of a sports emphasis BJJ school where beginners only start from their knees (yes, they are out there) vs. 20 years of a hard contact style like Kyokushin? Not gonna probably happen.

In speaking of generalities, grappling involves nullifying a striker's gameplan to close distance, take down etc. Most strikers, don't undestand the realities of this or train accordingly to stop it.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I stand firm in my original statement basically stating that:

Jiu-Jitsu based / grappling based martial arts have a stronger carry-over into reality-based self-defense than other arts.

If someone asked me "I have 6 months to train to learn some useful self-defense, what should I take?"

My answer is always going to be Combative Jiu-Jitsu / BJJ or a reality-based combat style like Krav, Filipino based. or Defence Lab. It's not going to be Karate... or similar traditional martial arts.

Until someone can show me otherwise, not just with words, I just don't trust in it's effectiveness for modern street combat.

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Right. If you have been reading the full content of what I have been posting, you'll see I agree in large part with what you're saying here. I think BJJ is well designed for pragmatic purposes, and furthermore, is great for MMA and readily adaptable for self defense. I have no reason to doubt that your combat adaptation is very effective self defense. This would be particularly true within the 6 month time frame you speak to.
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Where your reply goes astray is that you believe that other arts do not have a strong or stronger carryover... Well, OK it's internet so words & pics & vids are what we have. Matt, did you or did you not type in a post.... Like RBSD, let's be REAL.

In regards to:
....asking me if I can "close the distance on you before you smash me" over the internet is just lame. I trust in my ability, but there's only one way to ever answer this question..... we try it! Which is why we have an open door policy at my school. If you want to train, spar, roll, etc - sign the waiver, pay the mat fee, and you're good to go!. So if you're ever in Connecticut:

Jiu-Jitsu and Strength Academy

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Hey, a challenge is legitimate. But I don't do full contact. Why? Injury. As to posting a hypothetical over the internet which is backed up by not just my personal experience but in the REAL examples I've provided--not mention all the observations of same I've witnessed over the years.... Then the REAL challenge falls on you to respond to the PRINCIPLES I've laid out.

229 Shunpike Rd
Cromwell, CT 06416
email: [email protected]
phone: 860-869-4843

This is not a challenge, it's just an opportunity to train. I cross-train with other schools, stylists, etc on a daily basis. There we can test, learn and improve. Saying you can smash me over the internet in quite... childish. And one of the reasons why I joined this forum over others was because I didn't see any crap like this.

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The statement is a hypothetical. The vid you posted is a staged event. Two guys got together to present the 'effectiveness' of BJJ vs. Shotokan karate. Who independently evaluated the participating karateka? Answer with 'lame' & crap' is lame because all you do is repeat your conclusion. Repeating your conclusion proves what? Name calling proves what?
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You say you want to train and improve. You want to roll & train with others. Yet when someone presents you with a competitive argument that is spelled out with several, specific traditional karate principles, you respond with "childish." Hmmm.

And finally, I care more about percentages that one-off stories about some karate guy who beat a wrestler at some MMA fight. You're talking about a small percentage. There are legends in the cage who use their karate in MMA, (GSP / Machida / Liddell), but they have black belts in BJJ and/or a strong background in wrestling which allows them to use their karate effectively.

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NO, you're talking a large percentage of the people you spar with. It's the percentage of people with karate uniforms on who have achieved the traditional skills that is relatively small. That's the percentage of Karateka I'm speaking about. And that grappling training that is referenced about Machida, Liddell have been quoted a bijjion times, just like the Gracie's BJJ was 'invincible' in early UFC. Of course grappling skills are valuable. I've said that over and over. Liddell's grappling background was actually wrestling. LiIke another great, Matt Hughes. Like Brock Lesnar. If I relied on BIG names like you, I could point to these guys and so criticize BJJ. Of course that would be lame. The better word would be superficial.....
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You've got your heart invested in BJJ, I get it.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I stand firm in my original statement basically stating that:

Jiu-Jitsu based / grappling based martial arts have a stronger carry-over into reality-based self-defense than other arts.

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I used to work with a Shukokai karate black-belt. This person was younger that me by at least 10 years. He likes full contact because it's REAL. He gets together regularly with a BJJ brown-belt at the time. How did the full contact go according to the Shukokai karateka?
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He said he tries to KO the BJJ as he approaches for takedown. He said if the BJJ gets him down, the BJJ ties him all up, there's little he can do-- then often gets choked out. OTOH, he has KO'd the BJJ several times. Sounded like a Mexican standoff in terms of percentages.
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I trained with Shukokai for a couple of months. Don't do full contact as I said. Yet the Shokokai is scared of me (sounds silly I know). The reason I presume is that I have demonstrated (to Shukokai) what I COULD do.
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I'm certainly not as physically imposing an individual as you are.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I already knew the answer to my question.

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+1 for you (and your assumptions).

 

[ShotoNoob]

dup

 

[ShotoNoob]

Simple, because that's what Jiu-Jitsu guys do and train for...closing the distance and taking an opponent out. All I said was I'd put my money on the Jiu-Jitsu guy. I believe the odds are in his favor.

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Simple answer, the traditional karateka is MENTALLY trained to respond so DYNAMICALLY he will KO you on the way in. Matt, you cannot prove your position by restating the hypothesis. When someone assaults me, comes at me to do physical harm, I do the same concept in I will do my UTMOST to KO them as they approach..... Is it a guarantee any one can win--of course the answer is NO.

And I don't come to this conclusion randomly. I have competed in Kyokshushin, BJJ, wrestling, and MMA. I have also trained extensively with top-level kyokushin fighters and kickboxers. Combine that with "history" that any time a non-jiu-jitsu guy or non-wrestler faces a jiu-jitsu guy - the jiu-jitsu guy wins.

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And we've got an aggressive kickboxing style senior in our school who has run over most of the school. I took him out in seconds in the 1st exchange. He then got PO'd like you and tried to chase me down and pummel me for about the next thirty seconds.... never laid a hand (or foot) on me. Instructor stopped it. Wake up call for him.... I guess... BTW after the 1st exchange, I went karate defense only....

Jiu-Jitsu LIVES in the close combat world. That is why it is taught to our military and police officers... not karate. That is why it is basically a "requirement" for fighting MMA.... not karate. Regardless of traditional or not.

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Again I largely agree. In fact for MMA, I think BJJ is probably the ideal grappling art. I put in a short story here about the Shukokai Black-Belt full contact fighter I worked with vs. a BJJ Brown-Belt he went against in private, agreed upon. Please take a look @ that post.

Jiu-Jitsu just works... I'm sorry to offend you, but the proof is in the pudding. If traditional karate or other traditional martial arts are so effective for real combat then how come our law enforcement, military, or security professionals use it.

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I spoke to this....

Karate is NOT the ultimate self-defense martial art. Nor is Jiu-Jitsu. But if you're going to pit a traditional karate guy against a jiu-jitsu guy.... I'm sorry... but it's not going to work.

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Never said karate was the ultimate. NEVER. What I said is that the BJJ is not going to repeat the performance set out in the video against me. The response will be a UNIVERSE in difference. BTW, I think the style of karate I train is better than some others, but my style is far, far from the most sophisticated TMA, or style of karate for that matter. FOR THE RECORD.

And now for some fun videos:

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COMPLETELY LOVED THE VID, I APPLAUD YOUR POST(S), RESPECT YOUR SERIOUS TRAINING & INVESTMENT IN YOUR BJJ /
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BOTTOM LINE: QUESTION (CHALLENGE) THE EFFICACY OF THE VID.

 

[Tames D]

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+1 for you (and your assumptions).

Typical for people that toot their own horn

 

[ShotoNoob]

dup

 

[ShotoNoob]

Like I said, I'm talking about odds here and my experiences. I have trained with high level strikers in a variety of martial arts including traditional martial arts styles. SOME of these high-ranked / high-level strikers I have trained with are now actually students of mine in combat jiu-jitsu and sport BJJ. I also have taught seminars to military, police and SWAT. They need / want Jiu-Jitsu and grappling, they don't need Karate.

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They don't need karate or bjj is more pragmatic or practical for them? I think the latter is the case.

I also have a few police officers who train directly under me and have thanked me many times for their ability to use solid jiu-jitsu in real-combat that keeps them safe and ends the confrontation quickly.

So it's very hard for me to be convinced or even slightly swayed over the internet, when everyday I see quite different.

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I acknowledge, I'm sure this is true. I agree about the benefit. I'm referencing the vid: BJJ vs. Shotokan karateka.

Let me also state this. I have a great deal of respect for ALL martial arts. I believe all martial arts have value and can be effective. This is why I have trained in MANY different styles of martial arts including American Kenpo, Shorin-Ryu, and Kyokushin Karate. In fact, 2 of those place I have trained at asked me to be their self-defense instructors. This is how I started teaching and allowed me to eventually open up my facility.

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You trained a number of different arts. I choose to concentrate on 1style of traditional karate. There's a Thread on the validity of these approaches right now. Have you been there?
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For many reason, including reading your posts, I can see the successful business formula you've evolved. No question.
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Yet when I post a differing opinion on a FORUM, I get "badass," and "toot your horn." Quality--HIGH LEVEL--responses all the way.........

So... at the end of the day.... my firm belief is that Jiu-Jitsu OR wrestling OR Grappling is a far superior style to anything else. I don't want to be that dick who says my style is better than your style. But when asking what is the better martial art for street combat..... I'm going with Jiu-jitsu!

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Fine, you've made a personal choice. However, in a Forum that covers all kinds of styles, including the karate's, I think it phenominal that we haven't seen a reply pointing to any other (among the scores & scores & scores) Shotokan karate vid. Interesting....
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Especially true of you since you claim to have trained in 2 styles of karate, with "high-level" partners..????? NO need to TWIST my arm, here's vid:

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I actually had another JKA vid in mind. Admittedly, the sensei in this vid is a JKA Karate Champion. Appropriate though since your training environment is so "high-level"(see footnote).
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Your concept of BJJ as superior to the karateka is "simple" you say. Here's a "simple" challenge. Compare the movement of this Shotokan JKA black-belt to the movement of the Shotokan "Expert" in your BJJ vid. It's that SIMPLE....
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What's even simplier to see is that no other karate stylist here, including an instructor held in high regard such as yourself, could post a vid like this. Note the vid allows a switch into additional vids featuring this Shotokan Black-Belt. ENJOY...
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Footnote: Your "internet" words, not mine.

 

[ShotoNoob]

KARATE BUNKAI DEMONSTRATED IN FOLLOW-ON VID:
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In a follow-on vid embedded in the above, Tatsuya Naka demonstrates certain Shotokan bunkai. Shotokan is not my preferred style of traditional karate. I can readily see why Matt Bryers and many others don't find these appealing. I don't care very much for some of these myself.
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IMO, the larger lesson is to take a step back and ask what are these Masters trying to get across? How about that grappling does exist in traditional karate----karate is not just a reverse punch. Maybe the greater lesson is that grappling is strategically important, and if you get that by cross training BJJ, hey you've accomplished the greater lesson of traditional karate training.
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Another lesson is the versatility presented in the range of bunkai. BJJ of course is going to provide the best versatility if one is going to focus on grappling alone. Still. Shotokan karate a largely striking art, makes known the tactical importance & versatility in one having a grappling repetrior.
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When we appraise traditional karate in it's proper light, it's not just about stereotypes--like having the fastest reverse punch out there with little power.....

 

[drop bear]

I always hate hearing quotes like that, they are to generic to be of any meaning.

1 year of BJJ vs. 20 years of striking. Huh? One year of a good BJJ school vs. 20 years of a strip mall karate school with no contact sparring? Yep, I believe it. One year of a sports emphasis BJJ school where beginners only start from their knees (yes, they are out there) vs. 20 years of a hard contact style like Kyokushin? Not gonna probably happen.

In speaking of generalities, grappling involves nullifying a striker's gameplan to close distance, take down etc. Most strikers, don't undestand the realities of this or train accordingly to stop it.

Yeah both styles are training to stop strikers. So the striker is at an automatic disadvantage.

 

[ShotoNoob]

In speaking of generalities, grappling involves nullifying a striker's gameplan to close distance, take down etc. Most strikers, don't understand the realities of this or train accordingly to stop it.

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Not understanding is in the weakness of the practitioner, not the art. With strikers, this comes about from the striker training reactively to what's always seen in training, i.e. the heavy bag. The when a Gracie BBJ moves in and ducks, well the heavy bag didn't do that so the striker is now clueless.... Not what I would call traditional karate....
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Stating the objective is to "... nullify the striker's game plan;" says nothing rather than a starting point. There's no action, no technique, no description of how the grapple r mystically accomplishes said objective. And again with a bit of thinking, striker against striker has the same pragmatic goal. The only thing that's changed is one uses take-downs, the other uses strikes... Either way, the assailant must still approach you & lay hands on you.
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I know as ShotoNoob, I study principles but come on.......

 

[drop bear]

Not understanding is in the weakness of the practitioner, not the art. With strikers, this comes about from the striker training reactively to what's always seen in training, i.e. the heavy bag. The when a Gracie BBJ moves in and ducks, well the heavy bag didn't do that so the striker is now clueless.... Not what I would call traditional karate....

There are specific defences against grapplers it is not really a case of good training or bad. If you don't train to stop takedowns you probably wont.

 

[Instructor]

20 years is a long time. Most of the people I know with 20 years of training have learned how to fight on the ground, especially in this day and age.

 

[ShotoNoob]

There are specific defences against grapplers it is not really a case of good training or bad. If you don't train to stop take downs you probably wont.

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Again, your view in the conventional sense of how martial art styles are practiced is "true."
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By traditional karate standards, however, patently false. The Tatsuya Naka vid and related definitely demonstrates what I am saying.
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Again, if you are training against a partner who only throws a straight punch at your chest (aka IPPON KUMITE) AND, all you do in that training is learn to REACT to just what the partner does.... then yes you are correct.
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No doubt this is how the Matt Bryers and his "high profile" hard contact sparring partners look at it....
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Here's how I look at it. Same idea with the "Kiai Master vs MMA" vid. No one over there seems to accept my conclusion.
Despite all the talent here, I guess I have to go through it step-by-step....
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Step1. Kiai Master throws students all over the place. they are like the proverbial putty in his hands.
Step2. Kiai Master and MMA fighter pare off, Kiai Master waves hands @ Mr. MMA, NO EFFECT.
Step 3: Mr. MMA PUNCHES OUT Kiai Master.
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Under the applied goal of traditional karate (or any traditional martial art), the working objective in a physical confrontation is to use your technique to disable the opponent.
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Kiai Master's technique is completely useless, both on offense & defense. Kiai Master is dispatched by Mr. MMA.
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Hence, the PRINCIPLES behind the ability the Kiai Master demonstrated he could apply is a hoax--fraud; OR, he is incompetent in those PRINCIPLES. Either way, the Kiai Master is a fraud since he couldn't substantiate his ability when the vid starts out demonstrating he had some ability to throw 'opponents' over all the place & he was in complete control.... THIS IS PRECISELY WHY I LIKE MMA AS A PRESSURE TESTING ENVIRONMENT FOR TMA.
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BTW: the 3rd alternative is that the whole video was staged by MMA advocates. Whatever, in terms of legitimate martial arts, the vid is NONSENSE....

 

[drop bear]

Stating the objective is to "... nullify the striker's game plan;" says nothing rather than a starting point. There's no action, no technique, no description of how the grapple r mystically accomplishes said objective. And again with a bit of thinking, striker against striker has the same pragmatic goal. The only thing that's changed is one uses take-downs, the other uses strikes... Either way, the assailant must still approach you & lay hands on you.

You rely on striking itself. Good striking. Hands high, light feet ,chin down. Is terrible grappling.