What Paul Vunak said about BJJ

[Buka]

I remember when I first heard that statement. I remember like it was yesterday. I don't know the date, other than the early nineties, but I remember when I fist heard it, where I was standing on my dojo, which gi I had on and how fricken ticked off I was. But I swear to God I don't think it was Vunak who said it. Or at least that's not what I was told. But....it was hearsay to me, so I don't know. I just never associated it with Vunak. Or at least that's how I remember it.

 

[Drose427]

Some people will say just about anything if money is involved.


Supposedly Bruce Lee also said he would lose in a fight against Muhammad Ali, that he wouldn't stand a chance with his small Chinese hands. But like what you said about him saying a person with a year of boxing and wrestling beating most martial artists, it could be all hype.



I do believe it is important to know ground grappling and that's why I took it up, but there is more to fighting than just grappling just like there is more to fighting than just striking. I was once at this seminar which taught hand to hand combat that they would teach in the military and somebody asked a question about ground fighting. The instructor said that being able to ground grapple was good but if you're in a street situation where you end up being taken to the ground the thing to do is just get back up. Don't try to fight on the ground but get back up. This is especially true if your opponent has friends and you try ground grappling with him, his friends will give you a shoe party.

What a bunch of nonsense. If you don't know how to fight on the ground, your chances of getting back up are greatly diminished. Especially if the guy wants to keep you there, or if he outweighs/outmuscles you, or (heaven forbid) he's a semi-skilled grappler.

Saying that "the best ground defense is to never get there in the first place" is a great bumper sticker for your gym or club. In the real world, if you don't know what you're doing within that range of combat, you're screwed. A couple of his cronies possibly kicking at you is nothing compared to a guy on top of you smashing your head into concrete.

Hanzous exactly right. You cant just say "well I'll get back up." When the fights started, it doesnt work like that. Why do you think so many striking arts teach preemptively striking when you feel your life is threatened? Because if you can drop the guy before it turns in to a fight, you never have worry about ground game. But the better schools understand this still isnt as good as having some sort of ground game, which is why we ALWAYS tell students to expose themselves to as much as they can because we know we dont roll, and it's dangerous and imo its irresponsible if you're an SD school to say "just get back up." IF you can't teach grappling, let your students know and recommend they add some degree on.


To give a better example, Photon guy have you ever wrestled? Not with friends but in an actual match? The reason the take down is so important, is because most of the time that person has control. Even if you get back into a base, you're basically getting an *** kicking until you can get squared.up. It doesnt matter whos more skilled, when you're in a position like that its a major uphill battle. On the street, that guys probably gonna jump right on you and follow you the entire time while wailing on your face.

Yes, getting off the ground would be the absolute best thing to do. But you're most likely not gonna get the chance

 

[drop bear]

A lot of what is good for striking is crap for grappling. And a grappler will more successfully eat strikes to get a takedown than a striker will eat takedown attempts to get punches in.

so you really cant defend grappling with striking. What you can do is use grappling to stay on your feet and strike.

 

[Hanzou]

Hanzou, just curious, what would your advise be to someone who has -0- experience in striking and has just began groundwork or has -0- experience in any type of training if placed in a position of defending themselves in a physical altercation.

I would tell the first person to keep learning ground work, and I would tell the second person to get some training period. The reality is that a good Bjj school should teach you striking while teaching you grappling, with the emphasis being on the grappling. Old school BJj is very similar to MMA, which is also very good for defending yourself in a physical altercation.

 

[PhotonGuy]

In regards to the quote does anyone have him on film saying it? Or in a magazine article? Or is this all speculation?

I would have to dig up one of my old martial arts magazines but Im sure I can find one with him saying that in it.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I would have to dig up one of my old martial arts magazines but Im sure I can find one with him saying that in it.

If you do, please post the exact quote and the context.

 

[PhotonGuy]

What a bunch of nonsense. If you don't know how to fight on the ground, your chances of getting back up are greatly diminished. Especially if the guy wants to keep you there, or if he outweighs/outmuscles you, or (heaven forbid) he's a semi-skilled grappler.

Saying that "the best ground defense is to never get there in the first place" is a great bumper sticker for your gym or club. In the real world, if you don't know what you're doing within that range of combat, you're screwed. A couple of his cronies possibly kicking at you is nothing compared to a guy on top of you smashing your head into concrete.

Hanzous exactly right. You cant just say "well I'll get back up." When the fights started, it doesnt work like that. Why do you think so many striking arts teach preemptively striking when you feel your life is threatened? Because if you can drop the guy before it turns in to a fight, you never have worry about ground game. But the better schools understand this still isnt as good as having some sort of ground game, which is why we ALWAYS tell students to expose themselves to as much as they can because we know we dont roll, and it's dangerous and imo its irresponsible if you're an SD school to say "just get back up." IF you can't teach grappling, let your students know and recommend they add some degree on.

Well the guy who was teaching the class where he said that you should get back up if you're taken down in a fight had been a Navy SEAL with over 1000 hours of SCARS. SCARS is the fighting system that they used to teach Navy SEALS before they fired the guy who was teaching it. This guy also had backgrounds in other martial arts. By the way Hanzou I wouldn't recommend calling what a Navy SEAL says about fighting nonsense. Those guys do know what they're talking about and you don't want to get on their bad side. But aside from that I've learned from other sources such as books that going to the ground in a street confrontation is not always a good idea if the guy has got friends as you will get stomped by them.

To give a better example, Photon guy have you ever wrestled? Not with friends but in an actual match? The reason the take down is so important, is because most of the time that person has control. Even if you get back into a base, you're basically getting an *** kicking until you can get squared.up. It doesnt matter whos more skilled, when you're in a position like that its a major uphill battle. On the street, that guys probably gonna jump right on you and follow you the entire time while wailing on your face.

Yes, getting off the ground would be the absolute best thing to do. But you're most likely not gonna get the chance

Yes. The first wrestling I did was as a child in summer camp. After that I was on the wrestling team in the 8th grade. Aside from that I've also done some Judo which is similar to wrestling except instead of trying to pin your opponent you're trying to get them in a submission hold. Speaking of wrestling I was going to bring that up. You can win in wrestling by of course pinning your opponent but if you don't win by pinning you can win by points. You get points for a takedown when you take your opponent down to the mat, reverse if you gain control of your opponent on the mat when he was in control of you, and also escape which is if your opponent takes you down and has control and you are able to get away. Another words, if you can get back up. So since one of the skills sometimes used in wrestling is to get back up after it goes to the ground and you even get points for it, that shows that it can be done.

 

[Danny T]

I would tell the first person to keep learning ground work, and I would tell the second person to get some training period. The reality is that a good Bjj school should teach you striking while teaching you grappling, with the emphasis being on the grappling. Old school BJj is very similar to MMA, which is also very good for defending yourself in a physical altercation.

Interesting..., no help to that person who is untrained and is in need of something to do now.
I agree they should gave some training and continue in it to become proficient.
The question remains as to what the untrained person should do if in the altercation prior to getting trained or the training has just begun or there is no proficiency as yet? What advise do you give that person?

 

[Matt Bryers]

As someone who has trained Jiu-Jitsu for over 15 years, as well as wrestled in High School, and competed in MMA - I believe this original comment does have some truth, but also not exactly reality either. The real question I think is: Is Jiu-Jitsu effective against a skilled opponent in a violent street altercation.

There are a few thoughts / remarks on Jiu-Jitsu for Self-Defense:

Scenario #1:

If you're in a pure 1 vs 1 fight, and your opponent has Jiu-Jitsu and you have.... a ____ Karate style - my money is on the Jiu-Jitsu guy. The reason being is that the Jiu-Jitsu guy will know how to close the distance and bring the fighter to the ground.

Just watch some Gracie Challenge footage and you'll see: Gracie Challenge Archives - Warrior Combatives Academy

OR just watch ANY UFC for the 1990s. The early 2000s were all about Wrestlers.

Scenario #2:

If you're in a 1 vs 1 fight, and your opponent has Jiu-Jitsu - but you also train _____ Karate, but spar / train in a more realistic standpoint to defend against takedowns, good in the clinch, etc.... then I'd say it's a 50/50 shot.

Scenario #3:

If you're in a 1 vs 1 fight, and your opponent has Jiu-Jitsu and you have trained in _____, but your buddy decided to jump in.... Jiu-Jitsu loses.

====================

I tell this story to my students all the time. I used to work Security at a popular night club for 9 years (along with bartending). A fight broke out one night and as I got involved, I ended up locking up with one fighter in attempt to bring him out. I don't remember the exact circumstances of how I got there, but I ended up on my back in guard. Cool right? I can now use Jiu-Jitsu to submit this guy and get him out. WRONG. I got kicked, punched, kicked some more, and held on for dear life hoping some other bouncer would come to help. Eventually they did. But my ribs, my head, my face... all paid the price. Jiu-Jitsu was NOT great in a crowd environment.

====================

Another story from working, as we were bringing people out, we all got shoved out into the street and the fight continued. I got pulled down from behind and then another "opponent" started attacking me from the front. I was able to use tome nage (to a certain degree) to throw him off and then use the technical stand-up to get back to my feet. Jiu-Jitsu worked then because I was able to use it to get back to me feet and fight from there.

=====================

Final Remarks:

I personally believe (and I am biased) that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is the ultimate ground martial art. And the REASON is not just because the techniques work, but because the way BJJ is trained. BJJ fighters spar (roll) hard EVERY class. 45 minutes to an hour a night - we roll. That's typically 50% of the students training is live fighting. You can't even begin to understand the benefits of what the students are learning in those sessions. Not only are they developing their skills, but they're also developing sensitivity, awareness, and the "feel" of a fight. Irreplaceable.

If more styles employed more realistic fighting / sparring - I believe they would be more effective in all scenarios.

 

[Hanzou]

By the way Hanzou I wouldn't recommend calling what a Navy SEAL says about fighting nonsense. Those guys do know what they're talking about and you don't want to get on their bad side.

I'm shaking in my boots.....

But aside from that I've learned from other sources such as books that going to the ground in a street confrontation is not always a good idea if the guy has got friends as you will get stomped by them.

Of course its not always a good idea. Nothing is optimal all of the time.

 

[Hanzou]

Interesting..., no help to that person who is untrained and is in need of something to do now.
I agree they should gave some training and continue in it to become proficient.
The question remains as to what the untrained person should do if in the altercation prior to getting trained or the training has just begun or there is no proficiency as yet? What advise do you give that person?

So you're asking me what advice I should give someone who is untrained and about to fight someone? I would tell them to keep their hands up as much as possible.

 

[Danny T]

So you're asking me what advice I should give someone who is untrained and about to fight someone? I would tell them to keep their hands up as much as possible.

" -0- experience in any type of training if placed in a position of defending themselves in a physical altercation." Yes that was the question.

That's all, just keep your hands up as much as possible? And, if taken to the ground, again just keep your hands up? Nothing more?

 

[Hanzou]

" -0- experience in any type of training if placed in a position of defending themselves in a physical altercation." Yes that was the question.

That's all, just keep your hands up as much as possible? And, if taken to the ground, again just keep your hands up? Nothing more?

Well you're not being clear on how much time I have to teach this person. A month? A Day? A matter of hours? I can probably show him some fundamentals in an hour or so, but that doesn't mean he'd be able to use them in a fight.

 

[Danny T]

Well you're not being clear on how much time I have to teach this person. A month? A Day? A matter of hours? I can probably show him some fundamentals in an hour or so, but that doesn't mean he'd be able to use them in a fight.

I apologize for coming off unclear. Not trying to be.
I didn't ask as to what you would teach the person the term I used was: "Advise".
I asked what your advise would be. That would be your opinion or suggestion about what should be done if in a physical confrontation.

Keeping your hands up as best as possible is good just wanting to know if you would have more advise or opinion for an untrained person or even one who has just begun getting training if that person being untrained were in a physical confrontation.

I hope that is a bit more clear. Thanks.

 

[drop bear]

I apologize for coming off unclear. Not trying to be.
I didn't ask as to what you would teach the person the term I used was: "Advise".
I asked what your advise would be. That would be your opinion or suggestion about what should be done if in a physical confrontation.

Keeping your hands up as best as possible is good just wanting to know if you would have more advise or opinion for an untrained person or even one who has just begun getting training if that person being untrained were in a physical confrontation.

I hope that is a bit more clear. Thanks.

Honestly keeping your hands up is about as much advice as a person can handle in a fight.

personally i would advise them to have fun.

honestly it is too late by that stage.

 

[drop bear]

we actually have the situation Danny describes. Here is the tradie fight night that some of our guys do. And then get volunteered into cornering.

Some of these guys have zero experience. And you cant really tell them much. Just give them a pat on the head and let them go for it.

And yes it really can be the disaster that you think it would be.

 

[Danny T]

we actually have the situation Danny describes. Here is the tradie fight night that some of our guys do. And then get volunteered into cornering.

Some of these guys have zero experience. And you cant really tell them much. Just give them a pat on the head and let them go for it.

And yes it really can be the disaster that you think it would be.

This is not what I was describing. This is not a physical confrontation this is an agreed upon fight contest. If one doesn't know how to fight they are foolish to do this type of contest.
I'm asking about a situation one is confronted in a violent angry or self-defense situation.

So someone with no or very little training should simply stand there with their hands up? That's the advise, that and have fun?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

My advice for an untrained person about to get into a violent confrontation?

Don't.

Seriously, do whatever you can to avoid the fight and get out of there.

I or Hanzou or anyone else could offer advice for surviving or winning the fight, but even the best advice wouldn't help someone who doesn't have the experience to implement it under stress. Heck, even trained fighters often have a hard time hearing and following their corners instructions in a fight.

 

[drop bear]

This is not what I was describing. This is not a physical confrontation this is an agreed upon fight contest. If one doesn't know how to fight they are foolish to do this type of contest.
I'm asking about a situation one is confronted in a violent angry or self-defense situation.

So someone with no or very little training should simply stand there with their hands up? That's the advise, that and have fun?

This is not what I was describing. This is not a physical confrontation this is an agreed upon fight contest. If one doesn't know how to fight they are foolish to do this type of contest.
I'm asking about a situation one is confronted in a violent angry or self-defense situation.

So someone with no or very little training should simply stand there with their hands up? That's the advise, that and have fun?

ok so the street huh?

I am not sure how there would be any difference.

 

[drop bear]

ok so the street huh?

I am not sure how there would be any difference.

Oh and if you think that is foolish. You would love a brophy tent.