I had never heard the term Brophy Tent so I looked it up.
That's way cool old school.
What Paul Vunak said about BJJ
- Thread starter PhotonGuy
- Start date
I had never heard the term Brophy Tent so I looked it up.
That's way cool old school.
Danny T
Senior Master
Agreed. I stress being aware and don't be there. However, things do happen.
Hands up and stay covered is good advice, as well is to do your best to maintain distance, while attempting to defuse the situation. Move and keep moving. Either circle right and left or rush in and tie up the other persons arms. Both have their good points, both have their bad points. Rushing forward and staying close prevents power hits but puts you in a situation where you will be standing grappling and could quickly go to the ground. If on the ground cover and keep moving. I standing and circling be aware of what is around you if you can create enough distance then get away as quickly as you are able. Just standing there with your hands up taking a beating is foolish.
Or, in a bar, an eatery, a store, in your home... not just in the street.Drop Bear said:
How about in a 'non sporting' environment. You see no difference in how one would respond in a sport environment vs a non-sport. Just stand there with your hands up.
Completely different mindset and responses are different.
That's all good advice, but as I said it's probably going to be wasted on someone without training or experience. It takes training, experience, or (preferably) both for most people to be able to execute any sort of game plan other than whatever comes naturally to them in a fight.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2014
- Messages
- 23,381
- Reaction score
- 8,125
yes no difference in this case. Noob street fighter and noob boxer are going to do pretty much the same thing.
The mindset will be pretty much the same as well.
Yes, if you can avoid conflict that should always be your number one goal!
Good post. Even most of the pure Muay Thai guys with a decent fight record would usually become like, upsidedown turtles, once taken down and would get smothered, not knowing what to do. And once the BJJ is mounted, his poor striking skills while standing, becomes pretty deadly when he's got all the leverage and with the pure Standup Fighter's head sandwiched to the cement, with hardly nowhere to go. A fist going into the face, with the back of the head going into solid cement is just easy concussion city.
And even if the Nak Muay is a decent KO artist, it's not really that easy to KO someone. I've seen High School wrestlers destroy chopsocky Black Belts way before UFC 1, by taken them down and just raining punches, and it made me a believer. Wrestlers were GNP'ing in streetfights way before Mark Coleman coined that phrase. Some BJJ Blue Belts are also beasts, especially the ones that are serious wrestlers but never go to BJJ consistently enough to get promoted to Purple or higher. Some of our Blues can tap Purple and Browns.
If someone untrained and with no fight experience, absolutely have to fight with nowhere to run....then their best bet, IMO, is just to go crazy with whatever punches they will instinctively throw....at full power...and high volume. Just go because the other guy, if he's untrained, will be doing the same. Hopefully, both gas out w/neither being seriously damaged or your guy gets lucky and lands something.
Teaching someone to keep their hands up, circle, relax, chin down, etc... all takes training and real sparring, which would include full power sparring to KO someone, in order to really understand and apply the mechanics. And it requires getting hit hard, in the head quite a lot to really get used to it and keep fighting instead of cowering down and die, like most noobs or non-fighters do when they are getting demolished.
Although, probably the one easy thing to teach that's significant is to tell them to make sure that their fists are clenched as hard as a rock, at all times, to lessen the chances of breakage. In general, this is how the Krav Maga people approach such training. The Level 1-2 noobs are usually trained with proper striking techniques, but to go crazy in hopes of overwhelming their attacker and end the fight. It's when they get to the higher levels, that more emphasis will be on being more relaxed, picking shots, less gassing out and fight more like real fighters, which are the MMA/Sports fighters. In general, this is when many of them quit Krav Maga, because getting hit for real in the face, hard, even with headgear, is just too realistic.
ShotoNoob
Master Black Belt
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2015
- Messages
- 1,259
- Reaction score
- 72
|
This is way too much of a glittering generality. To start out don't get me wrong. I believe the Gracie's adapted the traditional Japanese jujitsu to a rounded, versatile & diverse technical system. A highly skilled BJJ stylist is definitely a force to be reckoned with. Some of the combat versions I've seen are superlative for self defense.
|
I also like the descriptive scenario's approach you laid out. It is, however, a sport-oriented approach, not a traditional karate approach.
|
This is complete BS that a skilled traditional karate fighter doesn't know to handle fighting distance. The 'distance' you speak of is taught Day-1 in kihon technique, ippon kumite & kihon kata. What's true is that most karateka train physically instead of mentally. In traditional karate, it's not distance per se that you are learning, it's mental discipline. Therein lies the weakness.
|
The applied goal in traditional karate is to disable the opponent quickly & efficiently. Your example describes sport karateka or kickboxers who train to go "12" rounds trading punches. In traditional karate, if the opponent moves in, you smash him. If he doesn't move in, you can move in and smash him. What is so magical about BJJ artists closing the distance???
Last edited:
Matt Bryers
Orange Belt
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2015
- Messages
- 72
- Reaction score
- 95
Simple, because that's what Jiu-Jitsu guys do and train for...closing the distance and taking an opponent out. All I said was I'd put my money on the Jiu-Jitsu guy. I believe the odds are in his favor.
And I don't come to this conclusion randomly. I have competed in Kyokshushin, BJJ, wrestling, and MMA. I have also trained extensively with top-level kyokushin fighters and kickboxers. Combine that with "history" that any time a non-jiu-jitsu guy or non-wrestler faces a jiu-jitsu guy - the jiu-jitsu guy wins.
Jiu-Jitsu LIVES in the close combat world. That is why it is taught to our military and police officers... not karate. That is why it is basically a "requirement" for fighting MMA.... not karate. Regardless of traditional or not.
Jiu-Jitsu just works... I'm sorry to offend you, but the proof is in the pudding. If traditional karate or other traditional martial arts are so effective for real combat then how come our law enforcement, military, or security professionals use it.
Karate is NOT the ultimate self-defense martial art. Nor is Jiu-Jitsu. But if you're going to pit a traditional karate guy against a jiu-jitsu guy.... I'm sorry... but it's not going to work.
And now for some fun videos:
Matt Bryers
Orange Belt
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2015
- Messages
- 72
- Reaction score
- 95
Or....
Simple, because that's what Jiu-Jitsu guys do and train for...closing the distance and taking an opponent out. All I said was I'd put my money on the Jiu-Jitsu guy. I believe the odds are in his favor.
And I don't come to this conclusion randomly. I have competed in Kyokshushin, BJJ, wrestling, and MMA. I have also trained extensively with top-level kyokushin fighters and kickboxers. Combine that with "history" that any time a non-jiu-jitsu guy or non-wrestler faces a jiu-jitsu guy - the jiu-jitsu guy wins.
Jiu-Jitsu LIVES in the close combat world. That is why it is taught to our military and police officers... not karate. That is why it is basically a "requirement" for fighting MMA.... not karate. Regardless of traditional or not.
Jiu-Jitsu just works... I'm sorry to offend you, but the proof is in the pudding. If traditional karate or other traditional martial arts are so effective for real combat then how come our law enforcement, military, or security professionals use it.
Karate is NOT the ultimate self-defense martial art. Nor is Jiu-Jitsu. But if you're going to pit a traditional karate guy against a jiu-jitsu guy.... I'm sorry... but it's not going to work.
And now for some fun videos:
While I agree, your average Strikers who haven't been exposed to jiujitsu simply can't out grapple them, some points I wanna make:
Militaries and police agencies around the world DO teach Karate/judo or TKD/Hapkido. We don't in America because it's just not part of our culture.
But our Militarys hand to hand draws from all these styles. I believe it even says so in the MCMAP handbook.
Also, if a striker has exposure to BJJ, it's not as easy of a win as it was in the early days of UFC. Even if the striker hasn't trained much JJ himself, he'll have an idea of what to avoid and what to watch out for.
It's also difficult to consider Karate in some capacity not a "requirement" in the same note that BJJ in some capacity is, considering the kickboxing you see from kickboxers uses techniques from Karate. I mean that's where kickboxing comes from.
Matt Bryers
Orange Belt
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2015
- Messages
- 72
- Reaction score
- 95
Like I said, I'm talking about odds here and my experiences. I have trained with high level strikers in a variety of martial arts including traditional martial arts styles. SOME of these high-ranked / high-level strikers I have trained with are now actually students of mine in combat jiu-jitsu and sport BJJ. I also have taught seminars to military, police and SWAT. They need / want Jiu-Jitsu and grappling, they don't need Karate.
I also have a few police officers who train directly under me and have thanked me many times for their ability to use solid jiu-jitsu in real-combat that keeps them safe and ends the confrontation quickly.
So it's very hard for me to be convinced or even slightly swayed over the internet, when everyday I see quite different.
Let me also state this. I have a great deal of respect for ALL martial arts. I believe all martial arts have value and can be effective. This is why I have trained in MANY different styles of martial arts including American Kenpo, Shorin-Ryu, and Kyokushin Karate. In fact, 2 of those place I have trained at asked me to be their self-defense instructors. This is how I started teaching and allowed me to eventually open up my facility.
So... at the end of the day.... my firm belief is that Jiu-Jitsu OR wrestling OR Grappling is a far superior style to anything else. I don't want to be that dick who says my style is better than your style. But when asking what is the better martial art for street combat..... I'm going with Jiu-jitsu!
I also have a few police officers who train directly under me and have thanked me many times for their ability to use solid jiu-jitsu in real-combat that keeps them safe and ends the confrontation quickly.
So it's very hard for me to be convinced or even slightly swayed over the internet, when everyday I see quite different.
Let me also state this. I have a great deal of respect for ALL martial arts. I believe all martial arts have value and can be effective. This is why I have trained in MANY different styles of martial arts including American Kenpo, Shorin-Ryu, and Kyokushin Karate. In fact, 2 of those place I have trained at asked me to be their self-defense instructors. This is how I started teaching and allowed me to eventually open up my facility.
So... at the end of the day.... my firm belief is that Jiu-Jitsu OR wrestling OR Grappling is a far superior style to anything else. I don't want to be that dick who says my style is better than your style. But when asking what is the better martial art for street combat..... I'm going with Jiu-jitsu!
Matt Bryers
Orange Belt
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2015
- Messages
- 72
- Reaction score
- 95
And the next response from everyone will probably be: "Well what about multiple attackers"
And my response to that is:
1.) Train multiple attackers and use good wrestling / jiu-jitsu to move around your opponents.
2.) I have started training in Defence Lab to enhance my "chaotic fighting" ability.
What I typically say is Jiu-Jitsu or grappling based martial arts are best for one vs one or for controlling an attacker. But Jiu-Jitsu is not as effective for multiple opponents; especially on the ground. You need to train to fight multiple opponents and need to have jiu-jitsu or grappling ability to defend against a multiple opponent scenario where undoubtedly someone will try to put you on the ground.
And my response to that is:
1.) Train multiple attackers and use good wrestling / jiu-jitsu to move around your opponents.
2.) I have started training in Defence Lab to enhance my "chaotic fighting" ability.
What I typically say is Jiu-Jitsu or grappling based martial arts are best for one vs one or for controlling an attacker. But Jiu-Jitsu is not as effective for multiple opponents; especially on the ground. You need to train to fight multiple opponents and need to have jiu-jitsu or grappling ability to defend against a multiple opponent scenario where undoubtedly someone will try to put you on the ground.
ShotoNoob
Master Black Belt
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2015
- Messages
- 1,259
- Reaction score
- 72
|
I agree & concur that BJJ, Jiu-Jitsu guys train to close the distance and taking an opponent out. What you left out is ME, the opponent.
|
Again, I have no reason to doubt your success. The weakness in your evaluation is that the type of striking opponents you are facing are not training true to traditional karate standards, IN MY ESTIMATION.
|
I told the vignette about the very aggressive kickboxer type I was matched up with when I was new to my current school. Took him out in seconds in the 1stt exchange. DONE. He had most of the students at the school intimidated with his aggression and physical presence.
|
I think Jui-Jitsu is great in MMA or self defense. Particularly when you are forced into grappling situation. However, traditional karate also has a grappling component, and if you go back far enough, there is a lot of Jiu-Jitsu type technique I am told. Personally, my grappling game is rudimentary and weak compared to yours and I am going on the record saying so.
|
The applied goal of traditional karate is, in a physical confrontation, to disable your opponent quickly & efficiently. That could mean maiming or killing the opponent. You just might KO him, or knock the fight out of him. Depends..... People assuming that traditional karate lacks infighting is totally wrong. See Okinawan style for best examples.....
.
|
Your proof is in the pudding you are eating. I eat a different pudding. It's called Smash 'Em.
|
Of course Jiu-Jitsu works. I actually agree. Does it work against a karate fighter like me? Well.... Frankly, I think say BJJ is adopted so widely because is it more sport-oriented in how most train. That makes BJJ easier to learn and faster to become proficient at. I think the BJJ system is very well rounded and practical. It really has so many pragmatic advantages where you want to restrain or control your opponent, not smash 'em. So Jui-Jitsu is well suited for the population you reference. but it is a statistic and has it's limits.
|
Well yes & no. For devil's advocate on your side, I'll take Shotokan karate which I usually use for illustration; and therefore, I will AGREE on that basis with your proposition. Yet is Shotokan done well good for self defense--Absolutely. We have to be careful we don't lump everyone practicing Shotokan into the McDojo category. That's where your conclusion your Jiu-Jitsu guy > Traditional Karate guy flops....
|
YES, the vids defeat your case completely. Better vids could pose a disscussion.
IAnd now for some fun videos:
I have seen this vid before. REALLY????
|
>The so-called karate expert lolls around with his hands down then half-runs forward in @ a quick pace completely upright and smack into the takedown.
> The S-C karate expert fails to raise any guard, fails to execute any strike of any kind, completely. I thought karate of any ilk had kicks and punches of some sort, or so I thought I've witnessed once upon a time.
|
The traditional karate principles are completely absent from the "Shotokan" opponent:
> As the Jiu-Jitus "closes the distance," rushing straight into ME, the 1st thing I'd do is the kihon front kick to the head. Is this hard?
> How about a hammerfist to the side of the head as he leans in to grab. It's in the Shotokan syllabus this S_C expert was supposedly responsible for....
> And what happened to the Knee strike to the chin & head that sent Chinzo Machida's RFA Grappler opponent out on a stretcher and never to be seen again in MMA???? Was that some mirage??? Vid's all over YT....
CLOSING QUESTION: Can you close the distance on me faster than I can Smash you??? There's another vid out there of a rather mediocre Shorin Ryu stylist in his 1st MMA bout KO'ing with a kick to head a close-the-distance (fail) grappler who had a 3-win record of GNP. Mr. Wrestler also left on a stretcher.... I THINK THE REAL QUESTION IS WHAT IS GOING ON IN THIS VIDEO?
|
P.S. The S-C Shotokan stylist out-of-box doesn't employ traditional Shotokan mental or physical posture.... to a traditionalist glaringly obvious....
P.s.s. One last suggestion about us 'karate fail' guys. I was just @ another post where a proponent of the Heian kata would be quite appropriate to input here. I'll leave the specific follow up to you....
Last edited:
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2014
- Messages
- 23,381
- Reaction score
- 8,125
Sort of. For a technique to work you have to consider a few factors. The technique itself and just how effective it is on its own merits. The ability of the person to do the technique and the ability of the other guy to defend it.
so you can train as a high percentage fighter but then you have to deal with the other will be dedicating his training to defend your attack style.
Grappling beats striking is tricky. A good pure grappler will beat a pure striker. But a striker can employ grappling to stand and strike.
And some fights are won against exceptional grapplers with strikes. The idea that you will automatically be taken down is just not true anymore.
It isn't taught to our police or military I'm afraid. The needs of police and military are different from each other as they are from individuals. Police officers want people, suspects, on the floor to control then, hand cuff them and remove them. They don't want to suspects to be standing. Our military regard MMA as a sport as is BJJ. Hand to hand combat doesn't have a huge place in training either. Certain units such as the Royal Marine Commandos tend to like to do a lot of it as they do a lot of sneaky beaky stuff where they have to silence people etc quite old school. In the Paras, milling ( stand up fighting) is used to test recruits for bravery and willingness to get stuck in but no ground fighting is taught. some basic self defence may be but rarely.
ShotoNoob
Master Black Belt
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2015
- Messages
- 1,259
- Reaction score
- 72
|
We have an "MMA Bashing" Thread with all kind of activity. I think MMA is super for pressure testing traditional karateka.
|
Here we have BJJ expert wiping out the Shotokan karate expert-opponent. I have to add one more qualification. Has the Shotokan 'expert' here ever taken / passed his Yellow-Belt Test Ippon Kumite? Embellish any one....
Very impressive. Can I see some of your badass stuff on video by any chance?
ShotoNoob
Master Black Belt
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2015
- Messages
- 1,259
- Reaction score
- 72
NO.
ShotoNoob
Master Black Belt
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2015
- Messages
- 1,259
- Reaction score
- 72
|
What's impressive about the video is not what the poster said it proved. What's impressive about the vid is how dangerous facing a good grappler is. Making a mistake or getting caught with your guard down.... oh no.... I definitely (most) wouldn't want that grappler getting his hands on me. I'd be toast (probably).
