Paul Vunak once said that a person with one year of training in BJJ could beat somebody with 20 years of training in some other style. I don't know if he was paid to make such a statement but after hearing that I became skeptical of Paul.
What Paul Vunak said about BJJ
- Thread starter PhotonGuy
- Start date
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2014
- Messages
- 23,376
- Reaction score
- 8,122
Video Paul Vunak LOSES IN STREET FIGHT Frequency
Understandable if he has been toweled up by a bjjer on the street.
Understandable if he has been toweled up by a bjjer on the street.
I can't tell from the video if there is any truth to the claim that the guy getting choked out is Vunak. The picture quality isn't good enough to tell.
However, given that Vunak started training BJJ with Rorion Gracie in 1983 and has been training BJJ ever since, I would be very skeptical of claims that he was choked out by a blue belt in a street fight.
Judging by some of your comments here I'm skeptical of you. Paul is a recognized authority on self defense buy I still question what he says. In fact I question everything I read, expert or not, no one is beyond question. So if this statement is cause for you to use rational thought, go right ahead, it's about time.
As for a one year BJJ beating a 20 year martial artist? I believe Bruce Lee made a quote about a person with a year of wrestling and boxing being able to beat most martial artists, I'd have to verify that though. The fact is if you can't grapple you have to be a very high level striker to overcome a Bjjers ground game. If said Bjj guy is also very experienced you're in trouble. Paul is one to advocate dirty fighting and it seems even he realizes you can't bite, claw, and knee stomp your way out of every situation. Ground fighting is an important skill to have, There are plenty of videos out there of experienced strikers going to the ground where neither fighter is skilled.
Danny T
Senior Master
Hard to say that is Vu for certain. Doesn't appear to be Vunak by his stance and the way he carries himself.
If this was him and he did get choked out where is all chatter over his getting choked out?
This is more likely put out by someone who has a dislike for Vunak and is attempting to discredit him.
This video made the rounds a while back, there definately was some chatter but I don't know that it was ever taken seriously.
If you check out the comments for the video on YouTube, the consensus that the guy doesn't even look like Vunak.
When I first watched the vid just now, I thought the guy in the black was supposed to be Vunak.
The guy that got choked? Doesn't look anything like Vunak. Not even close.
Could this be the first time the internet is wrong? Oh, the horror.
The guy that got choked? Doesn't look anything like Vunak. Not even close.
Could this be the first time the internet is wrong? Oh, the horror.
Back in the early nineties I heard that statement, too. About a BJJ guy with one year experience. Man, I just shook my head and laughed.
I can only speak for me and the guys I trained with and the guys I taught. We trained hard, we fought hard and we fought all the time, in Karate, kickboxing and boxing.
A year and a half after hearing that absurd statement, which was a year after training BJJ....I respectfully agreed with it completely - at least against me and mine. I am not speaking about anyone else in striking arts, just us.
I'm not sure if it's true anymore, because all the karate guys I know now all do grappling training. Again, I'm just speaking of the folks I know now and knew then.
You young guys are lucky. Martial Arts has come a long way.
I can only speak for me and the guys I trained with and the guys I taught. We trained hard, we fought hard and we fought all the time, in Karate, kickboxing and boxing.
A year and a half after hearing that absurd statement, which was a year after training BJJ....I respectfully agreed with it completely - at least against me and mine. I am not speaking about anyone else in striking arts, just us.
I'm not sure if it's true anymore, because all the karate guys I know now all do grappling training. Again, I'm just speaking of the folks I know now and knew then.
You young guys are lucky. Martial Arts has come a long way.
- Thread Starter
- #11
Some people will say just about anything if money is involved.
Supposedly Bruce Lee also said he would lose in a fight against Muhammad Ali, that he wouldn't stand a chance with his small Chinese hands. But like what you said about him saying a person with a year of boxing and wrestling beating most martial artists, it could be all hype.
I do believe it is important to know ground grappling and that's why I took it up, but there is more to fighting than just grappling just like there is more to fighting than just striking. I was once at this seminar which taught hand to hand combat that they would teach in the military and somebody asked a question about ground fighting. The instructor said that being able to ground grapple was good but if you're in a street situation where you end up being taken to the ground the thing to do is just get back up. Don't try to fight on the ground but get back up. This is especially true if your opponent has friends and you try ground grappling with him, his friends will give you a shoe party.
Hanzou
Grandmaster
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2013
- Messages
- 6,770
- Reaction score
- 1,330
What a bunch of nonsense. If you don't know how to fight on the ground, your chances of getting back up are greatly diminished. Especially if the guy wants to keep you there, or if he outweighs/outmuscles you, or (heaven forbid) he's a semi-skilled grappler.
Saying that "the best ground defense is to never get there in the first place" is a great bumper sticker for your gym or club. In the real world, if you don't know what you're doing within that range of combat, you're screwed. A couple of his cronies possibly kicking at you is nothing compared to a guy on top of you smashing your head into concrete.
LOL. As someone else said, question everything. I've heard good and bad things about Paul. I've seen a number of his videos. I thought they were good. Would I train with him? Sure. He's trained with some quality people. As for the 1yr BJJ guy beating a 20yr striker...this most likely stems from the BJJ/UFC craze. If we looked at the early days, we saw strikers, who claimed years to stand up exp, getting owned by Royce. Personally, I have to raise the BS flag, when I hear stand up guys say that they'll never get taken down. Hell, if that's the case, then I'd like to think that every MMA fighter out there, would seek out that stand up guy, to learn the magic he's teaching.
This is why I will always say that even if you don't actually devote years to learning BJJ, go seek out a quality grappler, and learn the basics. Something is better than nothing. Will the basics help you against a high quality BJJ BB? Probably not. Then again, the average Joe probably isn't going to be a high level BJJ BB anyways, so......
As an example....the UFC fight with Mark Coleman and Mo Smith. Mo trained with Frank Shamrock. Mark was a pure wrestler. Mo, even when he was taken down, used his grappling knowledge to survive, and get back to his feet, where he eventually KO'd Mark, with a kick.
Does anyone have a link to the actual quote of Vunak actually making this claim in the first place?
If he did say something like that, I would suspect it was something more like "a person with one year of training in BJJ could beat somebody with 20 years of training in some other style if the fight went to the ground."
If he did say something like that, I would suspect it was something more like "a person with one year of training in BJJ could beat somebody with 20 years of training in some other style if the fight went to the ground."
- Thread Starter
- #15
He was making that claim in the old MMA magazines in the early 90s. If you've got any magazines such as Inside Karate from back then you could find him making that claim.
Danny T
Senior Master
Hanzou, just curious, what would your advise be to someone who has -0- experience in striking and has just began groundwork or has -0- experience in any type of training if placed in a position of defending themselves in a physical altercation.
He also released a bunch of videos about how to bite people...
Rear naked choke defence - eat all the meat off his arm...
The "self-defence" world is full of weird claims and advice I'm not sure I'd want to take seriously.
Grappling is a important part of being a well rounded fighter. But don't take the claims made by people promoting their own products to seriously regardless of how famous they are.
The reason I'm asking is that the exact phrasing and context of the quote make a difference.
"a person with one year of training in BJJ could beat somebody with 20 years of training in some other style."
is different from
"a person with one year of training in BJJ could beat somebody with 20 years of training in some other style if the fight goes to the ground."
is different from
"anybody with one year of training in BJJ could beat anybody with 20 years of training in any other style"
is different from
"a person with one year of training in BJJ could beat somebody with 20 years of training in a style that doesn't include grappling."
and so on. If you read the original quote back in the 90s, I wouldn't be confident that you can remember the exact details.
Actually, I would take instruction in biting methodology from Vunak over most other folks, for a few reasons.
1) He's studied an art (Kina Mutai) which has a detailed methodology for biting
2) He's actually done experimentation (with raw meat) to figure out the most effective way to bite.
3) He's not using biting as an excuse for not learning how to grapple. He's got many years of BJJ training. (Which also means he knows how to control an opponent to set up the bites.)
4) I've been to a seminar with one of his students (Roy Harris) and was very impressed with the width and depth of his knowledge. Roy didn't go over biting at that seminar, but he had an excellent methodology for training eye gouges and head butts which I still use.
You brought the quote up in your original post, you provide verification to make this thread valid.
Paul Vunak is an interesting cat. He is definitely skilled at what he does whether it is striking, joint locks, grappling or weapons. His movement is very good and he has a lot to offer on the martial side if you can get past certain things.
ie:
There is a thread some where on MartialTalk about this.
In regards to the quote does anyone have him on film saying it? Or in a magazine article? Or is this all speculation?
ie:
There is a thread some where on MartialTalk about this.
In regards to the quote does anyone have him on film saying it? Or in a magazine article? Or is this all speculation?
