What is "Traditional Ninjutsu"?

Enson

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Kreth said:
I think you mean defer. Digress is what you normally do...

Jeff
another one that made me laugh :lol: i have to admit when i read the word i wondered if that was the correct word usage (couldn't remember the meaning). then i read the defenition! hee hee!

peace
 

Enson

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Don Roley said:
The key seems to be to suck the marrow from everything you are taught and learn as much about it as possible. I personally am not willing to drop something unless I know the reasons it is there in the first place and its relation with other aspects of the art. If I know the reasons, and know those reasons are not valid anymore, then I can drop it. Otherwise I will not know if the ends of the roast are to get it into a small oven or to let teh juices sink in. I will not declare mysellf a master and start dropping things I do not know completely and say that because I do not understand them, they must not have any use. I have seen too many modern creators of arts that do that and create laughable arts. I have faith enough in the charecter of my teachers and their abilities to beleive that they would knowingly teach me somethign that is not relevent for combat. So if they teach it, I should learn it. But if I do not know the full story behind the aspect, it only seems logical to learn as much about it as I can.
i absolutley agree with that!
 

Kizaru

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sojobow said:
Lets change this a little. .
Let's not and stick with "tradition".
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sojobow said:
Lets say that the "illegitimate" student found out through other sources (written syllibus, etc) that what the Soke was teaching was not what was originally taught by the school's founder. Thus, what the Soke would have pased on would not have been what was passed on to him. .
From my perspective this is as hypothetical as saying "So I'm in the Belgian Congo and 15 Yakuza jump out from monkies' rear ends and come at me with Kung Fu skills that would make Kwai Chang Caine quiver. What do I do?" Heads of tradition(s) are chosen because the person before him believes the new head can not only continue with the tradition, but guide the next generation into re-discovering it for themselves. If they chose the wrong person, the ryu deserves to die.

sojobow said:
Can (say Don Foley for instance), who finds some scrolls in a cave (a la "the dead sea scrolls"). So, Mr. Foley, having a strong background in traditional arts and language, starts a new school based upon the ancient scrolls that he found (which were tested for authenticity and found priceless). Would this scenario be legitimate? (Must the element of being "passed on" - person-to-person be a necessary element?)
YES! THE PERSON TO PERSON ELEMENT IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY!!! There is a ryu ha here in Japan that has multiple branches, one of those "branches" is lead by a group of people (Japanese) that bought old copies of the scrolls, practice the "moves" and claim authenticity through possesing the scrolls, but lack the proper distance, alignment, motivation, rhythm etc. From my perspective, the skills that are passed on through the lineage are more important than the documents; reality is more important than the image. Pieces of paper are thin; they won't stop punches.

Think about it. If Don had a pocketfull of cash, he could just saunter on down to Kanda, buy a few authentic densho and proclaim himself an expert in any number of ryu ha! How absurd is that!?!?!
 

Kreth

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Kizaru said:
Think about it. If Don had a pocketfull of cash, he could just saunter on down to Kanda, buy a few authentic densho and proclaim himself an expert in any number of ryu ha! How absurd is that!?!?!
Or he could make up a mysterious Japanese teacher, named, say Tanaka. Then he could further claim that Tanaka taught him (insert school believed to have died out here), but passed away just before he was to leave him any documentation. Yeah, when you put it like that, it is pretty absurd...

Jeff
 

Enson

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Kreth said:
but passed away just before he was to leave him any documentation.
Jeff
or any pictures taken with/of him. or maybe his wife/son... etc! hee hee!:)

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sojobow

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Kreth said:
Or he could make up a mysterious Japanese teacher, named, say Tanaka. Then he could further claim that Tanaka taught him (insert school believed to have died out here), but passed away just before he was to leave him any documentation. Yeah, when you put it like that, it is pretty absurd...Jeff
Sounds like a real Ninja to me.:rolleyes:
 

Kizaru

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sojobow said:
I digress again :)
Could not it be possible that he chose his 12-year-old son while he (the father) was on his death bed. Seems Father-to-Son was also important at one time.
Anything is possible. This scenario is not PROBABLE. Like Yakuza jumping out of monkies' rear ends in the Belgian Congo.

sojobow said:
Bet the next 10 post won't address this issue. I hope a few post do address this point regardless of the Zen influences.
It's not a matter of "Dharma Transmission", it's a matter of the teacher guiding the student saying, "this is correct, this is incorrect, if you do this you get X, here try it yourself"...You know, teaching from experience. Anyone can make a cake from a book, but it takes a seasoned chef to make a great cake.
 

Kizaru

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sojobow said:
Or he could make up a mysterious Japanese teacher, named, say Tanaka. Then he could further claim that Tanaka taught him (insert school believed to have died out here), but passed away just before he was to leave him any documentation. Yeah, when you put it like that, it is pretty absurd...

Sounds like a real Ninja to me.:rolleyes:
Maybe he could prove his lineage by picking a brick out of a stack and breaking it like they do in the movies...if nothing else, at least it would be entertaining.
 

DuckofDeath

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Kreth said:
Or he could make up a mysterious Japanese teacher, named, say Tanaka. Then he could further claim that Tanaka taught him (insert school believed to have died out here), but passed away just before he was to leave him any documentation. Yeah, when you put it like that, it is pretty absurd...

Click on the link, scroll down below "Social Security Death Index Search Results," enter "Senzo Tanaka," and see what you get:

http://ssdi.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/ssdi.cgi
 

Kreth

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DuckofDeath said:
Click on the link, scroll down below "Social Security Death Index Search Results," enter "Senzo Tanaka," and see what you get:

http://ssdi.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/ssdi.cgi
Wow! There was a Senzo Tanaka that died in 1975. I apologize, apparently I was completely wrong and Dux really did train with him... Nah, sounds like someone either scoured the obituaries for a Japanese name or got lucky...

Jeff
 

Enson

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can we all see a picture of tanaka? thats all i ask for... then the rest we can deal with later.

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Kreth

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In any event, Dux' system is not traditional ninjutsu. Take it to the modern forum...

Jeff
 

Enson

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Kreth said:
In any event, Dux' system is not traditional ninjutsu. Take it to the modern forum...

Jeff
no! ;) wouldn't dux' system be a traditional topic (for bashing purposes) for traditional ninpo practicioners? i think its fine here on this side! :)

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DuckofDeath

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Kreth said:
Wow! There was a Senzo Tanaka that died in 1975. I apologize, apparently I was completely wrong and Dux really did train with him... Nah, sounds like someone either scoured the obituaries for a Japanese name or got lucky...

But Dux is actually mentioned in the Senzo Tanaka SSDI info that comes up. Bring it up again, and under "Tools," click "View Post-em."
 
C

Camosam81

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hey all, I just wondered, has anyone here verified firsthand the validity of a ninja school??

Why come out now and sell courses on DVD when cloaked in secrecy for so long, and especially selling the art to westerners??

Seems funny.

Just seeking some real info.

-M
 

r erman

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Why come out now and sell courses on DVD when cloaked in secrecy for so long, and especially selling the art to westerners??

Well, if you have studied japanese feudal history you would know that shinobi no jutsu(aka ninjutsu) ws an accepted part of japanese warfare, and not some secret cult. The idea of ninjutsu as separate from samurai systems is a fallacy born of cinema, comics, and speculation. Many schools of samurai bugei contain ninjutsu, and these schools have also proliferated to the West.

If Hatsumi hadn't been established as teaching elements of ninjutsu before the 80's ninja boom who knows what the enrollment of the various takamatsuden organizations would now be, however he was teaching publicly as early as the sixties.

As the ninja craze was starting you had people like Steve Hayes returning from their training in Japan. This did nothing but add fuel to the fire. It is really no different than people obsessed with Kwai Caine Chang(sp) and the old kung fu series going to China and finding that Shaolin still exists--but just like that example the reality was far different from the myth...

Very few people use the ninjutsu label at all within the x-kans and their various offshoots.
 
C

Camosam81

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Ha ha... wel, maybe I have studied a bit of japanese history, but that doesn't change the fact that there has been a very prevalent anti-westerner attitude, and that all ryu, samurai and ninja, did have certain methods that they prefferred to have hidden from others. Tended to give them the upper hand.

In regards to traditional ninjutsu, you would support Hatsumi?? Would you support the basic stuff being taught through the Van Donk Bujinkan DVD course??

I have no doubt that I could learn through the medium of DVD, but I just want to know what others' take is on this...

-M
 

Enson

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Camosam81 said:
I have no doubt that I could learn through the medium of DVD, but I just want to know what others' take is on this...

-M
you will find different opinions on this (like anything else). imo i believe dvd is a good way to learn if you have communication with your sensei or instructors. you will need a training partner too. also if you at least get a chance to train every once in awhile in a school atmosphere that would help too.
rvdonk is on a thread i created some time ago. not much said about him so i would think go for it! he seems like he has a decent course. i have never seen any videos but his site is informative.
peace
 

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