What Good are Forms?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by dvcochran, Sep 8, 2019.

  1. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    Do you create a form that has one example of each? Do you create a form for each, that has multiple examples of its use?
     
  2. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    I think the biggest value is meditative and continuous improvement. If you want to have perfect forms, it takes dedication and training.
     
  3. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    This part...

    No.
     
  4. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Both.

    1. A form that record 30 different principles - only one example of each.
    2. 30 forms that records all different usage.

    For example, a single leg form that records all different ways to obtain the single leg, and also all different ways to finish it.

    1. uniform stance single leg.
    2. mirror stance single leg.
    3. uniform stance crisscross single leg.
    4. diagonal shaking single leg.
    5. diagonal shaking arm dragging single leg.
    6. knee striking single leg.
    7. shoulder striking strike single.
    8. foot sweep single leg.
    9. foot scoop single leg.
    10. shin bite single leg.
    11. inner hooking single leg.
    12. outer hook single leg.
    13. arm guiding single leg.
    14. ….

    Of course if I have 20 ways to get and 10 ways to finish, I should have 20 x 10 = 200 ways to get it and finish it. By using video and store in computer, it can be done. we live in the 21th century. we no longer live in the ancient time. This database will be expanded through the future generation.

    One day when I finish these forms, I will just record it on video. I won't train those forms. I won't ask my students to train those forms. Those forms are used for "recorded information" only.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2019
  5. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    If you do them the same way every time, they are “choreographed”. That was my point.
     
  6. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    In that case I wouldn't call it forms. I'd call it a table of contents and 30 chapters.
     
  7. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Students don’t need to memorize the drills. Over time, those interested in teaching will need to gather the list of those they wish to use.

    Yes. Phys Ed and Drama classes. More to the point l, I don’t recall a single class where all the information was in the textbook.
     
  8. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    How do you record in a form the definitions of the principles? I find those break down even in 2-man forms.
     
  9. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    If you create that "drill list" and upload to the internet. Anybody can obtain it by using Google search engine. Will that be nice?
     
  10. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    It sounds like you’re describing video demonstrations, rather than forms.
     
  11. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Sure. Nice, but not necessary. My drills work okay, but there are probably better to be found.
     
  12. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    You may need to record all possible application. this database will be expanded from generation to generation.
     
  13. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Will it be nice that if we can have online discussion with video clip instead of words? I try to use as many video clips as possible (I have over 1000 MA video clips on my computer).
     
  14. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    Can you give an example of how those have broken down?
     
  15. TSDTexan

    TSDTexan Master of Arts

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    an interesting development that happened to Japanese karate when researcher Patrick McCarthy started feeding HAPV data into the 2 man forms and the kata, and analyzing what happened.

    Needless to say there were a lot of people in Japan who began to hate Patrick McCarthy because he was bringing a light to shine on flawed, but beautful and broken kata performance.
     
  16. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    What does any of this mean?
     
  17. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't actually think it's possible to record all possible applications. It's possible to record the most useful or fundamental ones, but some techniques simply have too many possibilities in them (for NGA's Arm Bar, there are 6 entire categories of applications, before we even get to the ground). And if we catalog an ever-expanding list of applications, people start trying to get through those, rather than focusing on the principles and figuring out how to get the best use out of the technique in question. I don't even care if I don't teach the same set of applications to each of my students - they can share and exchange ideas when they work together.
     
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  18. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I do think video clips are more useful than just words. Putting them together is probably the best method of preservation of teachings right now.
     
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  19. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    All of NGA's Classical techniques are taught with a Classical form - basically a 2-man, static-start version of the technique that is kept within tight constraints (angles, specific grips and stances, etc. - much like you're used to in your forms). These are grappling techniques (you'd recognize some from your Hapkido), so you'd think the principles would be easy to discover. I find people who've been working some of these techniques for years, who don't understand them. I know they don't because they take me aside and ask me if I can explain them, because they don't understand them. And some of them, even my understanding (30+ years in the art) feels incomplete. I feel certain someone with a good grounding in Daito-ryu could explain three of them better than me. That's information lost over 4 or 5 generations (depending whether NGA's founder had that information or not, and how you count the generations): Morita to Bowe to Weber to Wyndham to me.

    I find different instructors teach the same technique dramatically differently, each emphasizing quite different principles - some of them in direct conflict. Why? Because the form doesn't really communicate the principles - it just gives a place to practice them.
     
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  20. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't understand this post, TSD.
     
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