What condition do you carry your weapon?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Bruce7, Jul 17, 2020.

  1. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    I know that was standard U.S. military doctrine for 50 years or so, but 1) we're not in the military and 2) the reasons that they did it don't apply outside the military.

    But, while we're at it, if I choose to carry a revolver, say a Ruger Safety Hammerless or the like, which of Cooper's "Condition Codes" should I choose to carry that wheel-gun in? I'm having a hard time finding the safety or the slide.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2020
  2. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    You know, if you
    • Have two working hands
    • One is not injured
    • One is not holding something else (like your child, a flashlight, or a shield)
    • One is engaged with the (highly likely) possibility of fending off an attacker already in your "workspace"

    Why don't you tell us. What exactly are the stats on that? While you're at it, can you compare those against the number of DGU's per year? You don't have to use the Kleck DGU's, use the CDC DGU's if you'd prefer.


    Sure. Can you give us those stats? While you're at it, compare then to the number of LEO engagements where they draw their duty weapon and the number qualification tests and practice reps so that we can develop an average.

    So we're up to "one."

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
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  3. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    I have read them. I've read them going way before that too. Republishing antique martial arts manuals, including firearms, is a hobby of mine.

    Lulu

    The concern of the military writers was actually lack of training or poor training among the men (officers) who would carry the gun. If you look at contemporary civilian (LEO and Self Defense) writers such as Abraham Himmelwright, Walter Winaus, and Alfred Lane, you'll see that none of them recommend carrying a semi-auto with an empty chamber for self defense. You can easily find these authors in Google Books if you want to verify for yourself.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
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  4. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    No it isn't. Empty chamber standard hasn't been commonly taught since the late 80's or so, right around the time when the M9 was adopted and the police branches updated their training. It certainly isn't SOP for the LE branches now, such as Security Police &tc.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
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  5. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    Then there is a problem with the holster you were using.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
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  6. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    IMS, he repeatedly said that this is the way JMB designed it to be carried, though I haven't looked at JMB's writings to say if that is indeed so.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  7. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    That's a training and practice issue, not a problem with the gun.
     
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  8. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    Remind me of what everyone seems to say the most common brand semi-auto pistol in the U.S. is?

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
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  9. Bruce7

    Bruce7 Black Belt

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    In the 10 years since D.C. police adopted the Glock 9mm to combat the growing firepower of drug dealers, there have been more than 120 accidental discharges of the handgun. Police officers have killed at least one citizen they didn't intend to kill and have wounded at least nine citizens they didn't intend to wound. Nineteen officers have shot themselves or other officers accidentally. Washington Post

    That figues to be almost 2 officers shooting themselves every year for ten years in D.C.alone. Not counting the times they almost shoot themselves.
    Do your really want to see the stats?
     
  10. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

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    So those 120 A.D. were while drawing their weapon?

    I've been in L.E. for 22 years and don't know anyone who's has had an A.D. while drawing their weapon.

    In my experience , A.D happen more when loading and unloading the weapon. While drawing, they are extremely rare especially when you factor in how may times an officer draws his weapon in their career.
     
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  11. Bruce7

    Bruce7 Black Belt

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    Different people have different priorties.
    My priority is to pull my weapon and get it pointed down range as safely as possible.
    I do not want my weapon to go off, before I am sure of my target.
    I am more concern with gun control that than speed, I had rather get shot than shoot a bystand.
    If I am shot and live, I will be able to live with myself.
    God has given me 64 very good years.
    Shooting the wrong person for me is worse than death.
     
  12. Bruce7

    Bruce7 Black Belt

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    PATROL


    Houston Officer Accidentally Shoots Self During Training


    December 4, 2019 • by POL Staff

    ABC News, the officer was attempting to unholster his service weapon during training at the agency's police academy when the gun accidentally discharged, causing a bullet to enter his thigh and exit through his ankle.

    The officer—a 27-year veteran whose name has not been released—was transported to a nearby hospital for treatment.

    The agency said on Twitter that he is conscious and stable.
     
  13. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

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    OK....and what percentage does that situation occur?

    That's purely anecdotal.
     
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  14. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

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    What percentage of officers have an A.D. while drawing?

    Having an A.D. while drawing is not because of how they are carrying.....it is a symptom of poor handling and profiency of that gun.

    Better to learn how to handle the gun then relying on the condition of it.
     
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  15. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    That's VERY dated information. MPDC has carried Glocks for a lot longer than 10 years -- because I've been a cop in a nearby area for 20, and they were carrying them before I was hired. In fact... HERE is the link to the article you're quoting. It's from 1998. The issue was quickly recognized as a training issue and it has been addressed by MPDC and most any other agency that carries Glocks. In fact, we still stress that a Glock will go bang if ANYTHING presses the trigger. (That's one of the reasons I'm a huge fan of them for law enforcement... they tolerate abuse and neglect, and are still reliable.)
     
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  16. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

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    I've got 2 friends that were involved in OIS....had they had to chamber a round before firing it probably would have been bad for them.

    Its just not a good way of carrying. In close quarter combat drills with simmuntions....you would be screwed. That .4 - .6 of a second is a big hurdle to overcome...not to mention the problems that could arise due to being under stress. Simpler is more reliable.

    My agency doesn't even allow the option to carry with an empty chamber....its too much of a disadvantage you put yourself in.
     
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  17. Bruce7

    Bruce7 Black Belt

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    You are right, no police department in the US I know of allows condition 3, most are condition 0.
    In down town Houston where a police officer pulls his gun for anything in condition 0.
    Do you think that makes law abiding citizens safer.
    To know one accident pull and someone may be dead.
    If it is good enough for the Israeli police why is it not good enough for our police departments.
    You don't think Israel law enfocement have close quarter combat.
     
  18. Bruce7

    Bruce7 Black Belt

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    Here is amore resent article
    A gun’s history of accidental discharges - The San Francisco Examiner
     
  19. Rat

    Rat Master Black Belt

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    Oh no, it might be in some places. Not nessisarily restricted in the U.S. (as there are some other places you can carry firearms for defence, or allows pivate armed security) But you know some local law enforcement can be underfunded as hell and some havent had a need to try and move on from revolvers etc. (or had the means to) Or can even afford to give people enough training focused on drawing if you dont pick it up quickly.

    I think Paul Harrell cited one that still used cartridge loops for revolvers as opposed to dump pouches or dump pouches with speedloaders, moonclips or those "speedstrips" you can find. Im obviously not performing a tactical analysis, just focused on if some places may or may not still do it, but if people still do that, then somewhere is bound to isralie carry their pistols. (or a secuirty company somehwere).

    Actually, i swear i saw israelie carry be the main way a krav maga orginisation teaches it, makes sense. No idea if they have changed it, but they still showed it recently in videos and in a citation of their training.
     
  20. Buka

    Buka Sr. Grandmaster

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    The mandatory carrying of a firearm in a very difficult occupation, and the responsibilities that obviously go with it, are far different than talking about it online if one hasn't experienced it first hand.

    If you haven’t, listening might better serve you than opining off the cuff. Especially in this very odd time we’re all going through.

    Just saying.123
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2020
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