What are the most universal effective takedowns?

Discussion in 'Grappling / Brazilian Ju Jitsu / Wrestling' started by TMA17, Dec 3, 2018.

  1. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    7,398
    Likes Received:
    1,848
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    I don't know about wrestling history. The Chinese wrestling can be traced back to yellow emperor time period (2711 BC?)

    This picture can be traced back to the Chin Dynasty (246 BC ~ 207 BC).


    [​IMG]

    - The wrestling double legs drops knee down.
    - The Kung Fu double legs does not.

    - The wrestling single leg uses both hands to grab the leg.
    - The Kung Fu single leg uses one hand to grab the leg, and use the other hand to push the upper body (neck, shoulder, head, ...).
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2019
  2. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    20,869
    Likes Received:
    6,101
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    And even if you go to the knee, it's not with a lot of force. I played goalkeeper in soccer for 11 years, and rarely wore knee pads. It probably wasn't a good decision, but even kneeling on a rock never caused much of a distraction in the moment. As @drop bear might comment, the ground isn't lava.
     
  3. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    20,869
    Likes Received:
    6,101
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    We didn't cover those when I was training, but then I never got to anything like the whole curriculum. I don't recall ever seeing any of the upper belts working those.
     
  4. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    5,353
    Likes Received:
    3,837
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Lexington, KY
    There’s also Te Guruma.


    (Second video has no sound.)
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  5. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    7,398
    Likes Received:
    1,848
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    When you use "under hook" to throw your opponent forward, if he resists, you can borrow his resistance, reverse your throwing direction, and change your forward throw into backward single leg or double legs. The under hook is very suitable for that combo switch (because your arms are under your opponent's arms and easier to reach to his leg/legs).
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    5,353
    Likes Received:
    3,837
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Lexington, KY
    It doesn’t have to be a lot of force, but I see a lot of guys who should know better dropping their knee down hard on a double leg. I tell my students that even on a padded mat there’s a long term toll involved with repeatedly smashing your knee down hard. Not only that, it makes the double-leg less effective because the impact goes down into the ground instead of forward into your opponent.

    The trick is to drop your hips first as low as possible and then drive forward, rather than just dropping your knee straight down to the ground from a higher stance. Ideally your knee should just lightly touch and go on the ground.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    7,398
    Likes Received:
    1,848
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    My teacher always said, "Do you have any dignity to drop your knee/knees in front of your opponent during competition?"
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2019
  8. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    5,353
    Likes Received:
    3,837
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Lexington, KY
    Oh, I almost forgot sushi nage:
     
  9. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    7,398
    Likes Received:
    1,848
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    After one Chinese wrestling tournament that a girl's pants was ripped apart by this kind of pants grabbing, the pants grabbing is not allowed in Chinese wrestling.

    IMO, in this situation, it's better to use both hands to grab his left leg instead.

    At 0.17.

     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2019
  10. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    20,869
    Likes Received:
    6,101
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    I love the autocorrect on that post, Tony. I'm now trying to figure out exactly what "sushi nage" would be. :D

    I learned sukui nage years ago in my NGA training, but never had a name for it.
     
  11. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    20,869
    Likes Received:
    6,101
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    With one leg held, there's still contact to the ground. If they're flexible, they can hang on and maybe not get thrown. Of course, to get both legs, you have to expose yourself a bit more if you go from the front, but from the side (as in the video Tony posted), it's not much exposed. It limits the opportunities a bit as a trade-off for being less exposed.
     
  12. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    5,353
    Likes Received:
    3,837
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Lexington, KY
    Dammit. Didn’t even spot that one. My iPad keeps thinking it knows how to spell better than I do and comes up with some really oddball replacements. (Like Jiu Mitsubishi for jiu-jitsu.)
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  13. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    2,435
    Likes Received:
    741
    Trophy Points:
    213
    Location:
    Southeast
    Kung Fu is older by a quite a bit it looks like. Wrestling shoots are taught both single arm and double arm. When first learning I believe we were always taught to drop the knee down. But that changes with experience. Good post.
     
  14. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    7,398
    Likes Received:
    1,848
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    Not if you get under the knee first, reach to the ankle, step away, turn around, and lift the ankle over your shoulder.

     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2019
  15. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    20,869
    Likes Received:
    6,101
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    As with most techniques, it has its advantages, when the technique can be applied properly. The other technique doesn't require the high lift, and actually opens opportunities for ground follow-ups and slams.
     
  16. PiedmontChun

    PiedmontChun Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2013
    Messages:
    323
    Likes Received:
    134
    Trophy Points:
    83
    I've worked a similar takedown but stepping to the outside as you elevate their leg, versus the inside of their leg. It allows for turning them away from you as they fall, so you can follow them to the ground and take their back to setup a submission. I quite liked it. Similar mechanics, different finish.
     
  17. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    20,869
    Likes Received:
    6,101
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    There's one in NGA that's taught initially (and often left there) as a kick defense, that is similar to what you describe. It'd be unlikely to work as a kick defense against a reasonably good kicker, but trains some reasonable options should you get under a leg somehow. Most places don't train any alternate entries, which is a shame. I need to dig that back up and dust it off before students get to that level.
     
  18. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2015
    Messages:
    4,777
    Likes Received:
    2,852
    Trophy Points:
    403
    Location:
    In the dojo
    I was reading this from a while back and somehow never got around to replying...

    Looks very familiar. A variation on the double leg takedown we often used. We called it the kamikaze double. We were taught to hit with our head rather than how they’re hitting with their shoulder. A few years later when I started coaching, they were using the shoulder like in the video. The shoulder is far better from an attacker’s safety perspective. Football eliminated “spearing” which is basically tackling by burying the top of your helmet into the guy, and our head wrestling coach carried that over to this - spearing is a great way to break your neck. Spearing in football was banned a year or two after I graduated.

    Edit: the kamikaze double is a lot harder to pull off in wrestling due to the lower stance. It’s most effective when the opponent is nearly upright. With the stereotypical wrestling stance of the head and shoulders forward and bent at the waist, they’re not presenting a great target, hence the traditional double is used far more often. If given equal opportunity to use either one, I’d kamikaze double every time. I’d rather the opponent on his back.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2019
    • Informative Informative x 1
  19. marques

    marques Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2015
    Messages:
    1,138
    Likes Received:
    368
    Trophy Points:
    123
    Location:
    Essex, UK
    I would say single leg, even without much experience with it, because easy grip, good control and easy/ier transitions to something else when it fails.

    Slim and light versus round and fat makes difficult any above waste grab (for me at least - and I would replace single leg for a low kick as well :) ).

    Just a push with the right timing and direction(s) also makes an easy takedown, especially when you can mix it with surprise (not in a Judo match).
     
  20. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    7,398
    Likes Received:
    1,848
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    What are the most universal effective takedowns?

    Since your hands are close to your opponent's upper body and your legs are close to your opponent's legs, the most effective take down is to let your hand to do your hand job and to let your leg to do your leg job. This way, both your hand and your leg only have to move a short distance. Also since your hands control your opponent's upper body, you will have less chance to be punched.

    Since all leg skill require single leg balance, this may be difficult for beginners to do.

    To deal with your opponent's body, if you land

    - both feet on the ground, you have only 2 hands.
    - 1 foot on the groung, you have 2 hands plus 1 leg.

    In Chinese wrestling, this move is called "front cut (or diagonal cut)". In Judo, This move is called "large outer reap".





     
    Last edited: May 29, 2019

Share This Page