United Studios of Self Defense (USSD)

[James Kovacich]

The reason why I ask about Sonny Gascon is that there is one Shaolin Kempo Brown Belt who has and continues to call me and my instructor fakes. My instructors judgement of me is justified and he and his instructors master certifications are documented.

Yet all of the SSK Grandmasters are self promoted. I know Sonnys skill was great but according to there own “their own” standards, that’s not enough. Now it seems he may not of even had a black belt. If that is true then considering that all the SSK Grandmasters are self promoted, then I am being harassed on a personal level.
I hate to have to post like this because Sonny is a good man. But I am the one still being harassed by his downline.

 

[Carol]

I hate to have to post like this because Sonny is a good man. But I am the one still being harassed by his downline

OK but doesn't it make more sense to call out the harrasser rather than the senior?

 

[John Bishop]

Sonny Gascon was/is a black belt under John Leoning, who was under Emperado. This is confirmed by Emperado himself. Leoning was a 5th degree in Kajukenbo and a 7th degree in kung fu.

 

[Danjo]

The reason why I ask about Sonny Gascon is that there is one Shaolin Kempo Brown Belt who has and continues to call me and my instructor fakes. My instructors judgement of me is justified and he and his instructors master certifications are documented.

Yet all of the SSK Grandmasters are self promoted. I know Sonnys skill was great but according to there own “their own” standards, that’s not enough. Now it seems he may not of even had a black belt. If that is true then considering that all the SSK Grandmasters are self promoted, then I am being harassed on a personal level.
I hate to have to post like this because Sonny is a good man. But I am the one still being harassed by his downline.

Hmmm....I have never been anything but tongue in cheek about my brown belt rank from Villari. Video training and testing is a joke in my opinion. I actually earned a brown in Shotokan years ago and know the difference. Lou Angel has a great deal of skill. Those he has promoted to high ranks in the martial arts very often do not. My comment on another forum about me outranking one of his 7th degree black belts in SKK was meant to be ironic because at least I didn't lie to get it the way he did. If you feel self conscious about having been given rank from someone that doesn't train in the art you "created" then I'm sorry you feel that way. How talented you are compared to the other high ranking Lou Angel black belt we know about, I couldn't say since we only know what you tell us about yourself. But given that he ranked that fellow so highly tells me nothing regarding your skill any more than the Villari certificate tells you about mine.

 

[James Kovacich]

OK but doesn't it make more sense to call out the harrasser rather than the senior?

Because we were called fakes, I pointed his lineages "gray area."

 

[Danjo]

Because we were called fakes, I pointed his lineages "gray area."

For the record. I didn't call Lou Angel a fake black belt like I did ajka. I called him a fake master because he promotes untalented people via long distances in styles that he doesn't know. I don't think he's the only one mind you.

But, I'll say no more about it because it was a private message that ajka has made public and I don't want to continue to sully MT this way.

 

[James Kovacich]

Sonny Gascon was/is a black belt under John Leoning, who was under Emperado. This is confirmed by Emperado himself. Leoning was a 5th degree in Kajukenbo and a 7th degree in kung fu.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19177&highlight=sonny+gascon
post#14
John's earliest black belts in California were not until 1962-63.
Carlos Bunda and Bill Ryusaki were the first ones

post#15
In 1958 there are only 3 karate schools in all of So. California. Tsutomu Oshima's Shotokan school (1955), Ed Parker's Kenpo school (1956), and John Leoning Kajukenbo school (1958).

 

[James Kovacich]

I was questioning whether or not Sonny had a black belt before creating his system in 1958. His downline seem to frown upon that.

 

[James Kovacich]

For the record. I didn't call Lou Angel a fake black belt like I did ajka. I called him a fake master because he promotes untalented people via long distances in styles that he doesn't know. I don't think he's the only one mind you.

But, I'll say no more about it because it was a private message that ajka has made public and I don't want to continue to sully MT this way.

I haven't posted it anywhere but if want it to. You did not call anyone a fake master. You called us both fakes.

 

[Danjo]

I haven't posted it anywhere but if want it to. You did not call anyone a fake master. You called us both fakes.

Sigh... Here is the quote you are refering to. (I do save my out-going PMs) So you might want to re-read it.

"You and Angel are fakes. He's a fake master who hands out rank to anyone that asks for it, and you sure as hell are a fake black belt. "

Now I am done with this.

(Apologies to the Forum. Please feel free to delete any part of this that is offensive)

 

[Ceicei]

Now please shake hands and move on....

 

[James Kovacich]

I don't care about that stuff so much as as people always find fault in other organizations. I'ts messed up to be called out like that from an organization thats has it's own dirt.
Go to Gascons website and he states he's nonpolitical. But his downline attacks other orgs. Thats politics. Our org is non political and the only politics we have to deal with comes from the outside.

My biggest point in all this is that it is 100 times better to being promoted by an established outside organization that to self promote oneself.

I've been slammed and by many people downline from that org of self promoted grandmasters but I didn't self promote myself.

 

[James Kovacich]

Sigh... Here is the quote you are refering to. (I do save my out-going PMs) So you might want to re-read it.

"You and Angel are fakes. He's a fake master who hands out rank to anyone that asks for it, and you sure as hell are a fake black belt. "

Now I am done with this.

(Apologies to the Forum. Please feel free to delete any part of this that is offensive)

You have issues with me and one other person. WHO else under Hanshi do YOU feel undeserving? Do I just get you so mad that you don't know what you're typing?

You only seem to be nice on this forum.

I would like to see your list of all these undeserving overranked martial artists. If you don't have a list then it is a personal issue for you against me. You don't know me from adam. You have no video or anything to justify these assumptions that you have about me. You don't know me at all except from the forums. You asked me for video. Who are you to ask me for video to prove myself to you? You offered those youngsters on the other forum a video which you never sent them or posted for them. You asked me if I wanted to continue our discussion on Bullshido forums. Again who are you to ask me these things. You're line is the dirty one. You really should produce you're list of "our" underserving and overranked martial artists.

And on the topic of giving out rank. You should research your WHOLE upline.

 

[Danjo]

You have issues with me and one other person. WHO else under Hanshi do YOU feel undeserving? Do I just get you so mad that you don't know what you're typing?

You only seem to be nice on this forum.

I would like to see your list of all these undeserving overranked martial artists. If you don't have a list then it is a personal issue for you against me. You don't know me from adam. You have no video or anything to justify these assumptions that you have about me. You don't know me at all except from the forums. You asked me for video. Who are you to ask me for video to prove myself to you? You offered those youngsters on the other forum a video which you never sent them or posted for them. You asked me if I wanted to continue our discussion on Bullshido forums. Again who are you to ask me these things. You're line is the dirty one. You really should produce you're list of "our" underserving and overranked martial artists.

And on the topic of giving out rank. You should research your WHOLE upline.

Look akja, you're always the one piping up when I write something about something that has nothing to do with you, not the other way around. I'll drop the whole thing and move on.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

=============
Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Jonathan Randall
-MT Moderator-

 

[Lisa]

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[marlon]

Every style comes from somewhere. Judo comes from jujitsu, shotokan comes from shorei ryu and shorin ryu. But shotokan practitioners don't consider themselves a shorin ryu offshoot, or subsystem. And Judoka don't consider themselves to be jujitsu practitioners, or a offshoot/subsystem of jujitsu.
Sonny Gascon trained in Kajukenbo before going his own way and developing Karazenpo. I've never seen the Karazenpo ciriculum, so I can't say if it has some Kajukenbo techniques left in it or not.
George Pesare trained a few months with Gascon, up to purple belt (so says Gascon). So he obviously didn't get the whole Karazenpo system. He did later get a black belt in tae kwon do, so I guess you could call his system "tae kwon kempo".
Pesare's student, Nick Cerio also trained with Bill Chun and William Chow and received a black belt from them. He put more changes into "Nick Cerio's Kenpo", including Japanese katas.
Fred Villari, also says that he made more style changes before naming his system, Shaolin Kempo. I have seen the cirriculum for Shaolin Kempo, and can say that there are no Kajukenbo techniques (punch counters, club counters, knife counters, grab arts, alphabets, multiple attacker defenses) or katas in Shaolin Kempo Karate.

Hello master Bishop,
When i trained briefly in Kajukenbo here in Montreal (about six months until family time constraints made it too time consuming to continue) I really enjoyed it and although the grabs and such were technically different much of what i saw of the alphabet and the forms had siomilarities. a friend of mine in San Diego has dropped the Okinawan forms and adopted the monkey danses into the SK he teaches and as we exchanged notes the similarities decrease significantly. However, Prof.Kimo's forms are apparently more similar. So, i guess it would be more proper to say that shaolin kempo has kajukenbo roots. i like to think of them as related arts. What do you think of that classificaction? As soon as i can i must get back to some of Costas classes and learn some more kajukenbo

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[John Bishop]

Hello master Bishop,
When i trained briefly in Kajukenbo here in Montreal (about six months until family time constraints made it too time consuming to continue) I really enjoyed it and although the grabs and such were technically different much of what i saw of the alphabet and the forms had siomilarities. a friend of mine in San Diego has dropped the Okinawan forms and adopted the monkey danses into the SK he teaches and as we exchanged notes the similarities decrease significantly. However, Prof.Kimo's forms are apparently more similar. So, i guess it would be more proper to say that shaolin kempo has kajukenbo roots. i like to think of them as related arts. What do you think of that classificaction? As soon as i can i must get back to some of Costas classes and learn some more kajukenbo

Respectfully,
Marlon

I assume your talking about Costas Beralis, one of Philip Gelinas's students. As far as I know much of Philip's Kajukenbo teaching is from the "Chuan Fa" branch, which came about long after Sonny Gascon left Kajukenbo.
But I have to agree that similarities can be found in just about all martial arts. One time I was doing a cover story on Fumio Demura. One of the techniques he did for the article was identical to a Kajukenbo club counter, with the exception of one strike. Now I know Kajukenbo has no connection to Shito Ryu karate. But there are Okinawan karate techniques in the Hawaiian kenpo systems, so they will appear sometimes in kenpo, Karazenpo, and Kajukenbo.
Now, would it be proper to say SKK has Kajukenbo roots? Possibly, but very minimal. But you have to ask yourself this question. If George Pesare was a purple belt in Karazenpo (not Kajukenbo), a black belt in Tae Kwon Do, and a black belt in Judo in his early days of teaching, wouldn't his root system and lineage be Tae Kwon Do or Judo? And then the system went to Nick Cerio who also obtained kenpo rank from Professor Chow, and a couple other teachers of kung fu and jujitsu. So again the purple belt knowledge of Karazenpo gets diluted some more in it's passage to Fred Villari.
As to the katas Kimo teaches, I'm really not familiar with the katas that Walter Godin and Martin Buell adopted into their system.

 

[RevIV]

Hi,
Just chiming in here. I heard a Rumor that CNG received his 10th dan grand master title just recently.. anyone else here this.?
In Peace
Jesse

 

[John Bishop]

Hi,
Just chiming in here. I heard a Rumor that CNG received his 10th dan grand master title just recently.. anyone else here this.?
In Peace
Jesse

From the horses mouth:

http://christophergeary.com/autobiography-19.php