Unabridged Library of Contemporary Kenpo

[Doc]

Brother John....."If you were 'never off guard' you'd be what we call Neurotic"........Ha!Ha! Ha! could even make you slightly Paranoid.................Who said that?....I know someone's there........I'm ready, I'm ready, I,m re..............

Just remember China, you're not paranoid if they really are trying to get you.

 

[kenpoworks]

AH!,at last someone who does understand that "they" are out there................................................do you think I need help, really do you?
Richard
OBTW if you want examples of real paranoia try visiting the "other" Kenpo Forum, lots of basket cases post regularly!

 

[kenpoworks]

Doc quote....."Those who have abbreviated and changed the curriculum, for the most part, have dumped the WOK. They have made things "easier" for the student, and for themselves as well. Eliminating techniques they have no knowledge of how to make functional, and making it easier to promote students with a limited amount of information and skill. Many have done this under the guise of "simpler is better," or "I'd rather have ten techniques that work well." However this approach for those who have spent years in the arts suggest they have stopped learning and are creating a similar legacy for those they teach, who will learn even less. The idea of the art is consistent and constant growth, not stagnation of the student that some promote"....

Wow! Doc, I just had to post this again in case anyone missed it, I think this pararaph will have a lot of heads nodding in agreement as it is read.
Respectfully
Richard

 

[Seabrook]

Doc quote....."Those who have abbreviated and changed the curriculum, for the most part, have dumped the WOK. They have made things "easier" for the student, and for themselves as well. Eliminating techniques they have no knowledge of how to make functional, and making it easier to promote students with a limited amount of information and skill. Many have done this under the guise of "simpler is better," or "I'd rather have ten techniques that work well." However this approach for those who have spent years in the arts suggest they have stopped learning and are creating a similar legacy for those they teach, who will learn even less. The idea of the art is consistent and constant growth, not stagnation of the student that some promote"....

Glad you re-posted Richard. Without giving out names of people who eliminate dozens of techniques (and believe me there are lots of them), I advoacte all 154 techniques.

Here's a nice little example I experienced the past few weeks. On April 23rd, I am testing two students for 3rd Degree Black Belt, and one for 1st Degree Black Belt. They have all been pre-tested on the techniques, but for their pen testing, they are allowed to choose 40+ techniques to do on a partner. The key is - I would like to have no repitition. In other words, I don't want the same technique done twice.

Initially, I assumed that there would be a heck of a lot of "favorites" and I would have to get the candidates to choose other techniques. Why? Because let's face it, we all have our favorites techniques that we enjoy competing with, doing in demos, ect. But guess what? For the most part, there was very little similarity in the techniques the three candidates chose.

Where am I going with this?

Well, if I had been like many Kenpo instructors out there that simply don't understand and can't make a bunch of techniques work for them, and as a result, subsequently discarded them from our program, the students would have had only a miniscule taste of the AK system. Further, I would have had to try to push my favorites on them, without the students exploring other techniques that they may be able to get to work great for them.

Any perceived deficiencies within American Kenpo's techniques are exactly that - perceived. If as an instructor you can't make a technique work for you, find an knowledgeable instructor who can help you in your journey.

American Kenpo is a study of motion, and eliminating techniques robs the students from that understanding.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Seabrook]

Oops. instead of "pen testing" it should have read "open testing."

 

[Brother John]

Oops. instead of "pen testing" it should have read "open testing."

Yeah... pen testing gives me lots of little scratches and squiggles on the corners of my page.
:idunno:

your Brother
John

 

[kenpoworks]

Jamie you have a good problem there.
I have a 2nd degree Brown Belt who could a be a 2nd degree Black Belt (if he had tested on a time requirement basis) who just plays with the "stuff" and keeps coming up with questions as well as answers all the time, he claims to be as happy as a Pig in Poo.
As his instructor his approach to the Art can be challenging and rewarding.
Richard.
Martin as your instructor I am telling you that "you have to test for 1st Degree next year"............The lads (and lasses) need a night out in Amsterdam!

 

[Goldendragon7]

I advocate all 154 techniques. American Kenpo is a study of motion, and eliminating techniques robs the students from that understanding.
Jamie Seabrook

I advocate the 154+ as well, it actually forms the "Base of the Art" or our main "point of reference" material. All the forms 1-8, sets, freestyle techniques, coordination exercises, basics sections, pledges, terminology, sayings (philosophy), creed, principles, and all of Ed Parker's books as reading requirements are also required and used constantly as a reference. From this base.... you can then execute what has been designed! Expansion and tailoring can then take place much more effectively.

This is IMHO a must for anyone that is truly interested in Ed Parker's American Kenpo. Now of course, the proper understanding, drilling and skill acquisition is paramount as well, but having a complete curriculum to expand upon is the only way to go.

:asian:

 

[Ray]

Clearly I am NOT suggesting in the real world you should wait for someone to grab you so you can do the prescribed technique. You should however practice and learn to deal with it should you be caught unaware, which for mere mortals like us Sean is a definite possibility sir.

This is particularly instructive to me. Doc is someone who is well-respected and looked up to; a master of kenpo, law enforcement experience and so on.

He speaks honestly without bragging. He says that there is a possibility that he might be caught off guard. To me, that means there is a much greater chance that I might be caught off guard. I had better give serious consideration to what he says.

 

[howardr]

Obviously you are talking about the adults you teach and I'm thinking it would be ideal for children to consider not getting hit or pushed first the ideal, because you can teach a ten year old your "trick" but his widow of survival is almost non existant against say... an adult with intent. The reason we are arguing this point is because someone tried to suggest an other than ideal intro. I say change the ideal then train for the worst.
Sean

Sean, unless I'm misreading, you seem to be characterizing Dr. Chapel's material as a "trick," which in my mind is considerably disparaging. Did I misinterpret what you were saying? I can attest from first-hand observation and participation that it is no mere "trick."

 

[NTDeveloper]

Returning to the initial reason for starting this thread...

I understand that there are some objections to the "Delayed Sword" write-up, but has anyone seen more of the book than just this sample? If so, could you recommend it?

Now, I realize that Parker's Infinite Insights series are the ultimate source for Kenpo technique principles; however, these books are out of print and thus cannot be obtained (without forking over hundreds of dollars for used copies).

What text(s) (that are readily available) could be used as a reliable resource?

Thanks.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Now, I realize that Parker's Infinite Insights series are the ultimate source for Kenpo technique principles.

True!

However, these books are out of print and thus cannot be obtained (without forking over hundreds of dollars for used copies).
Thanks.

Not true!

Which ones do you want and how many?

:asian:

 

[Touch Of Death]

Sean, unless I'm misreading, you seem to be characterizing Dr. Chapel's material as a "trick," which in my mind is considerably disparaging. Did I misinterpret what you were saying? I can attest from first-hand observation and participation that it is no mere "trick."

Trick is what I meant; as in: there is a trick too it... or the trick is too... Tricks are not Doc Chapelle exclusive. Its just term I use to refer to the measures taken to negate this or that attack without guessing what a person is doing when "they" say "they" can "do it" with out explaining how. Even if they did explain I still would consider the measures as the trick too it. Sorry if you are offended though.
Sean

 

[rmcrobertson]

1. Ah, the Mushashi fantasy: total combat awareness at all times. I forget--did Mushashi lead a happy life?

2. Sigh. Much of what was explained was that this really had to do with teaching students (and learning oneself) good kenpo. And one of the things that supposedly separates kenpo from other martial arts is the deliberate, planned use of all these little "tricks." Like, as was mentioned, control of an opponent's zones.

3. Why settle for such an "Encyclopedia?" The good stuff--the unarguably good stuff--just isn't all that hard to get.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Since you bring it up what has Kenpo got that tother styles don't?

 

[howardr]

Trick is what I meant; as in: there is a trick too it... or the trick is too... Tricks are not Doc Chapelle exclusive. Its just term I use to refer to the measures taken to negate this or that attack without guessing what a person is doing when "they" say "they" can "do it" with out explaining how. Even if they did explain I still would consider the measures as the trick too it. Sorry if you are offended though.
Sean

Okay, I think I see what you were saying now. No problem.

 

[Brother John]

I guess this is what happens when we throw out the eight considerations of combat. The idea isn't to eliminate being off guard, its to narrow that down time. John, convince me its better for a student to learn a given tech from an unaware state every time, as oposed to a best case senerio for you, and then working towards greater degrees of difficulty per tech. I know we want to be prepared for the worst but if the student never sees a street smart approach he or she will gravitate to waiting and doing what they are taught.
Sean

Ok...Please let me interject....

I guess this is what happens when we throw out the eight considerations of combat.

Who threw out the 8 considerations??? I don't understand why you said this.

The idea isn't to eliminate being off guard, its to narrow that down time.

But you will never perfect it. I feel you've got to be ready to "throw the switch" and go into a psychological and physiological state of engagement at a moments notice... that's WAY different than remaining in those states all the time. I agree. WORK to be as aware as you can as often as you can. BUT: You aren't going to become like Spiderman with his spidersense... you won't be 'aware' all the time.

John, convince me its better for a student to learn a given tech from an unaware state

No.
I won't convince you of that. Because that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that we have techniques that deal with an attacker at ALL of the range stages: out of contact, within contact, contact penetration, contact manipulation.
Are You saying that I should only train for the first two and avoid training for or paying attention to techs that address the last two ranges because then I'd be training my students to 'not be aware' enough to deal with it before hand??
See I won't convince you that

its better for a student to learn a given tech from an unaware state

because I train and train my students to be aware and train in an aware state... and I teach them how to deal with attackers who are 10 feet from me, 5 feet from me, 1 foot from me and right up on me.

I know we want to be prepared for the worst but if the student never sees a street smart approach he or she will gravitate to waiting and doing what they are taught.

Are you then saying that it's not 'street-smart' to be prepared for any range of contact? It's not streetsmart to prepare for all four stages?
WOW...
...and I never said anything about not being streetsmart or just gravitating toward 'what they are taught'. You are reading too much into things there. You don't know how I train. We don't ever train a person to "wait" for anything. They act and Take action...running the table like in billiards...
BUT: We must prepare for all probabilities....like being grabbed.

Hey...if you don't want to practice the anti-grab/grappling techs.... don't.
ME? I will. So I can stay aware of what to do when it happens.

Your Brother
John

 

[howardr]

Ok...Please let me interject....
Are you then saying that it's not 'street-smart' to be prepared for any range of contact? It's not streetsmart to prepare for all four stages?

Your Brother
John

As a follow-up to this, Sean against what attacks are you defending against in the following techniques:

Mace of Aggression (two hand lapel grab)
Lone Kimono (one hand lapel grab)
Twin Kimono (two hand lapel grab)
Scrapping Hooves (full nelson)
Grasp of Death (head lock)
Entangled Wing (wrist lock; I think I'm recalling this one correctly)
Etc.

In the above techniques, are these all attempted, i.e., contact is intended but hasn't been made, grabs, locks and holds, or do you extricate yourself from applied grabs, locks and holds?

 

[Touch Of Death]

Mace of Aggression (two hand lapel grab)-Move before being pulled or jerked
Lone Kimono (one hand lapel grab)- move before being pulled or jerked
Twin Kimono (two hand lapel grab)- avoid unfavorable destination or event by moving before pulled or jerked
Scrapping Hooves (full nelson)- ever really try this against a full full nelson?
Grasp of Death (head lock)- move before blood flow is cut off and posture destroyed
Entangled Wing (wrist lock; I think I'm recalling this one correctly)- try pulling this off before arm is broken.

 

[howardr]

Mace of Aggression (two hand lapel grab)-Move before being pulled or jerked
Lone Kimono (one hand lapel grab)- move before being pulled or jerked
Twin Kimono (two hand lapel grab)- avoid unfavorable destination or event by moving before pulled or jerked
Scrapping Hooves (full nelson)- ever really try this against a full full nelson?
Grasp of Death (head lock)- move before blood flow is cut off and posture destroyed
Entangled Wing (wrist lock; I think I'm recalling this one correctly)- try pulling this off before arm is broken.

Maybe we're just talking cross-purposes, but I just can't understand what you're referring to here.

So, in Lone Kimono are you saying that you move before being pulled or jerked?! I just don't get it. How is that realistically possible? How can you be assured that you will be ready for that and capable of it any time, at a moments notice? You're not Remo Williams are you?

I mean, if you're that fast, why not just move before they've even touched you at all? Fact is, at least in the attacks that we practice, and it makes sense to me (and incidentally it's what the attacks have looked like when I've seen them applied on unwilling participants "in the real world"), a one hand lapel grab realistically applied includes a jerk simultaneous with the grab. In other words, I don't think someone will walk up to another, stop, gently place their hand upon the lapel, and then after some time has passed push or pull. I think what's more more likely is that someone will aggressively (and most likely surreptitiously; therefore, you may not be aware that it's happening until it's happening) move up to the person and aggressively grab while simultaneously jerking the person quite physically. Mutatis mutandis for the other techniques listed.