Martial Artist vs Player of the Martial Way

[LawDog]

Old school terms.
Martial Artist:
Military way. One who goes to a training location and floor trains on a regular basis. They will develop the discipline needed to maintain focus in order to complete any task. They strive for perfection of the fighting arts.
Players of the Martial Way:
Non military way. One who casually trains at a training location or self trains at home. They view the Martial Arts as a sport.

This is not an insult that is aimed at anyone's mode of training, just a line of discussion.

 

[Doc]

Old school terms.
Martial Artist:
Military way. One who goes to a training location and floor trains on a regular basis. They will develop the discipline needed to maintain focus in order to complete any task. They strive for perfection of the fighting arts.
Players of the Martial Way:
Non military way. One who casually trains at a training location or self trains at home. They view the Martial Arts as a sport.

This is not an insult that is aimed at anyone's mode of training, just a line of discussion.

Although this definition description could be appropriate in many instances, there are a great many "martial players" who subscribe to and approach the arts as a "sport," and often take what they do much more seriously than the so-called "self defense warrior."

Although I don't personally subscribe to "martial sport," (anymore) you must give those that do, a measure of respect. They have chosen the level of the art they wish to pursue, and the experiences of this type of vigorous physical interaction can have some positive impact. Particularly at the "high" end of the competition scale.

The big negative here is when many confuse "martial sport" with "street fighting." The reason this happens is because the level of knowledeg in the martial arts pool of teachers is such, that most often they look the same. "Competing" on the street is not a good idea, however if that is all you have been taught and know ...

 

[Hand Sword]

I would say that being a martial artist means expressing what you've been taught in the manner in which you choose. The strikes, kicks, and blocks are the same if your doing the sport version or the street version. It's the mental focus, and appilication that differs.

 

[MJS]

Old school terms.
Martial Artist:
Military way. One who goes to a training location and floor trains on a regular basis. They will develop the discipline needed to maintain focus in order to complete any task. They strive for perfection of the fighting arts.
Players of the Martial Way:
Non military way. One who casually trains at a training location or self trains at home. They view the Martial Arts as a sport.

This is not an insult that is aimed at anyone's mode of training, just a line of discussion.

People train for a variety of reasons, with some taking their training to that next level. You've received some great replies so far, and I agree with what has already been said. Some people are just looking to have something to do after work, and while they might not appear to be taking their training seriously, they're not learning anything different than the person that is there on a more regular basis. We can't fault someone who trains on an occasional basis unless we know everything about their personal life. There was a time when I was at the dojo 6 days a week, but due to a job change, my workout time also had to change.

Mike

 

[Doc]

... The strikes, kicks, and blocks are the same if your doing the sport version or the street version.

I afraid I disagree with you completely. Applications and execution are completely different between sport and street.

 

[Seabrook]

I afraid I disagree with you completely. Applications and execution are completely different between sport and street.

You got that right DOC!


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Zoran]

I afraid I disagree with you completely. Applications and execution are completely different between sport and street.

Can't agree more. I would also further add that these applications and executions are very different from one combatative sport to another sport as you have a seperate set of rules in each. Street is a completetly different animal and can't be compared to combat sports because there are no rules besides survival. I've yet to see a sport where one of the competitors reaches in his back pocket and slips a knife between his opponents ribs while rolling around on the ground.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Yup. I learned this from several people, but one of the guys I learned it from was a VERY good kenpoista (I dunno--is it like, "barista?") named Rick Jeffcoat...I reached down to help him up after finishing Dance of Death back when I was an orange belt, as as he came up off the mat he pulled the rubber knife that he had tucked behind his back, in his belt, and stuck it in my belly.

Then there was the time he was running a technique line and saw me pick up a club and handit to the guy who was gonna swing it at me--he stopped everything, and a lecture about NEVER handing somebody a weapon to attack me with, but throwing it down and at least make THEM pick it up, even in a class, ensued.

It stuck with me.

I only hope that if I ever really have to get into it, they'll throw those little TKD flick-kicks at my head, or try those little flippy back-knuckles that score points....but my luck, I'll probably get some shaven-headed butterball who'll throw a roundhouse punch when I'm stuck in some small space, then charge on in with a chair...

 

[Andrew Green]

Can't agree more. I would also further add that these applications and executions are very different from one combatative sport to another sport as you have a seperate set of rules in each. Street is a completetly different animal and can't be compared to combat sports because there are no rules besides survival. I've yet to see a sport where one of the competitors reaches in his back pocket and slips a knife between his opponents ribs while rolling around on the ground.

I hear those dog brothers like to roll around with sticks and knives...

We do it too.

Grappling with weapons is not unheard of, as a competitive sport no, but as a "classroom" sport yes. Like playing any other sport with deviations from the rules. 2 on 3 basketball isn't done competitively but it does get played.

 

[Seabrook]

Yup. I learned this from several people, but one of the guys I learned it from was a VERY good kenpoista (I dunno--is it like, "barista?") named Rick Jeffcoat...I reached down to help him up after finishing Dance of Death back when I was an orange belt, as as he came up off the mat he pulled the rubber knife that he had tucked behind his back, in his belt, and stuck it in my belly.

Then there was the time he was running a technique line and saw me pick up a club and handit to the guy who was gonna swing it at me--he stopped everything, and a lecture about NEVER handing somebody a weapon to attack me with, but throwing it down and at least make THEM pick it up, even in a class, ensued.

Hi Robert,

Just wondering if Rick Jeffcoat still trains with Larry Tatum occassionally?...I know he runs his own school in Pasadena but wasn't sure if he was still linked with the LTKKA or not.

The reason I ask is that I haven't seen him listed as an instructor at Larry's camps/seminars.

On another note, are you going to Mr. Tatum's Las Vegas camp in June?


Cheers,

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[rmcrobertson]

No, he doesn't. But take it from me--Rick's a wonderful martial artist, and a helluva nice guy.

Yes, I will--but don't tell anybody, and I will be in disguise in order to avoid my legions of fans.

 

[Hand Sword]

I afraid I disagree with you completely. Applications and execution are completely different between sport and street.

That is what I said! Look at the end of my post "It's the mental focus, and appilication that differs."
I am from the inner city, old school mentality, have scars, and a lot of fighting experience, so you don't have to tell me about application of the arts. It's the street version that is all I cared about. But, even when competing the individual blocks and stikes, and kicks, were the same as when I was fighting, just controlled, and pulled.

 

[Zoran]

Grappling with weapons is not unheard of, as a competitive sport no, but as a "classroom" sport yes. Like playing any other sport with deviations from the rules. 2 on 3 basketball isn't done competitively but it does get played.

I don't consider those sports because the primary reason for them is not competition, although that can be a part of it. Primary reason for many of the sport type exercises in class is as a tool to teach you something about a self defense application and is usually only a small piece of the big picture.

So for example, if you use boxing type training and sparing two enhance your stamina, speed, timing and power as a part of your training, it does not make you a boxer.

 

[Andrew Green]

So for example, if you use boxing type training and sparing two enhance your stamina, speed, timing and power as a part of your training, it does not make you a boxer.

Then at this point we are just playing a word game...

 

[Zoran]

Then at this point we are just playing a word game...

I disagree. There is a world of difference between sport and self defense. If you are in a school that primarily teaches you a competative martial sport, be it sparring, mma, kickboxing or what have you, then that is what you learn to do. You are conditioned to follow a set of rules disigned to make the sport more interesting to the viewer. The goal is to win within those parameters. I've heard many always say that sparring techniques can be easily converted for the street. However, when the heat is on, that won't happen. You will do what you have trained to do, which in this case will be point spar, box, grapple or whatever. Once someone takes you out of those parameters, then you might as well be a tiger fighting a shark under water.

Kenpo is about survival. Not if you win a title or trophy. We may use various martial sports to enhance our training, but the goal is always self defense (or it should be).

I am not saying martial sports can't improve your ability in self defense. It can. Boxer's are some of the toghest fighters. MMA competitors can be very versatile as they are more adaptable. But in both those cases, they focus on the sport so they limit themselves. For example, in an MMA sport, you may be the type that likes to take it to the ground. It becomes your natural instinct (or conditioned response) since that is how you win. Now if someone attacks you, you will fall back on what you know. Except that when you take that person to the ground, the scenerio I mentioned before happens. Or someone comes along and kicks you in the head.

Lastly, it is not a word game or semantics. It is my point of view which you may agree with or not. I'm sure some others may think the same way, or some may think I need a boot to the head.

 

[Doc]

That is what I said! Look at the end of my post "It's the mental focus, and appilication that differs."
I am from the inner city, old school mentality, have scars, and a lot of fighting experience, so you don't have to tell me about application of the arts. It's the street version that is all I cared about. But, even when competing the individual blocks and stikes, and kicks, were the same as when I was fighting, just controlled, and pulled.

Then I'm afraid sir by your own admission, your knowledge level is very limted.

 

[MA-Caver]

I would say that being a martial artist means expressing what you've been taught in the manner in which you choose. The strikes, kicks, and blocks are the same if your doing the sport version or the street version. It's the mental focus, and appilication that differs.

It's also as Bruce Lee taught that it's a way of "...expressing yourself honestly not lying to oneself..." In this regard I have the means and the ability to get my point across in the appropriate manner. Fighting verbally or mentally or physically I let my "opponent" know I mean what I say and say what I mean.
Personal circumstances has limited my *ahem* regular attendance at any MA school of choice for years but it still (IMO) does not limit my personal feelings as being a martial artist. Through MA I've learned much about myself in many aspects; mentally, physically and emotionally as well as spiritually. I've taken what I've learned through the years and applied to to nearly everything that I have in my life, thus IMO this is the martial way.