Unabridged Library of Contemporary Kenpo

[NTDeveloper]

A website (www.arnis.org) is offerring what it calls "The Unabridged Library of Contemporary Kenpo" which contains detailed descriptions of all Kenpo SD techniques. As an sample, they provide the write-up for delayed sword (http://www.arnis.org/kenpo/librarysample.htm) and it looks pretty good. Can anyone reccomend (or alternately advise against) these manuals?

Thank You.

 

[rmcrobertson]

It looked good at first--though starting with too much theory, too much terminology, for my taste, rather than describing the technique first--but there's a glaring error in the description of the first technique.

Assuming that you're doing Delayed Sword against a lapel grab--which is what the site describes--you'd better pin the attacker's hand with your left hand, rather than, "checking their lower...zones," with it. Otherwise, you'll get hit in the head...and additionally, the pin (assuming a grab by the attacker, again) with the step-back (rather oddly described as a reverse step-through or some such) teaches something about off-balancing an attacker...

I'd proceed with caution, unless I misread.

 

[JKDooer]

This is one of my favorite resources to teach from. I have the Accumulative Journal and find it to be consistent with Ed parker's material. The Infinite Insights lists the Delayed Sword as a grab,too. Usually I teach the technique for a punch, too. But that is also listed in there What If section. They also have the Dimensional Zone theory covering for 'accidental' strikes

So, I recommend it. You can always alter what you do from there.

JK

 

[rmcrobertson]

I wouldn't. Telling students that the technique is for a grab, but don't check the grabbing hand, is more than a mistake, it's a basic fault that shows a fundamental lack of knowledge.

You'd be far better off simply getting the real Accumulative Journal of Mr. Parker's and the "Infinte Insights," books, or a good set of videos such as Larry Tatum's.

And that's my final word.

 

[Drifter]

I was taught that Delayed Sword was for when the person was grabbing at you, not when they already have grabbed you. Maybe this is one of those things that Mr. Parker taught everyone a little differently.

 

[kenpoworks]

Yeh!, 1st move of DS and short #1, move the target, work the idea not the sequence,thats a great place to start.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Please re-read: what I wrote was that the cited website insists that the attack is for a shirt grab, then tells you to ignore their grab and check down lower.

That isn't a difference of opinion, nor of education: it's a serious error, and it's serious because it teaches a fundamental misunderstanding.

 

[JKDooer]

This is from the sample on their web site:

"Your right arm should remain in the position of an inward block to positionally check your upper height zone against possible renewed attacks. "

I certainly looks as though they are trying to get you to pay attention to the right arm. Also, there are 'what if' questions at the end that may lead you to learn about other types of attacks that this one can be applied to.

Maybe you didn't read it all the way down, past the 1st paragraph.

JK

 

[Mark Weiser]

Since Starting training in EPAK. I would strictly teach the techniques as listed in his (PARKER'S) Book. The what if's should come later as you gain ranking in devolping your art. This way you gain the mechanics of EPAK and develop you body to remember the techniques. Then once you can react instinctively then you can go into the what if situations.

Remember you have to think/teach as if someone came off the street without any experience in any Martial Arts. That is the way EPAK is set-up by SGM Parker in his Infinite Insights Series.

 

[rmcrobertson]

I think I probably read the thing about as well as it needs to be read, dude.

Here is what it says about the defender's LEFT hand, which is the one that pins the right hand grab:


"s1. Have your left hand to anticipate action by positionally checking your right rib cage with the palm facing out, finger together....

...the left hand remains in a positional check by your right rib cage."

I could add that if you pin their hand with your left and step back, you pretty much shift their weight on to the front leg way before you use any frictional pull, but hey, if you want to do this stuff and get smacked in the head when the guy's who's grabbed you with their right hand lets go and smacks you because your left hand is below their arm and can't do anything useful, it's-a fine by me.

 

[kenpoworks]

Yes, I see what you mean Robert, but your left hand would at least be on the inside.. I wouldn't say it would stay at ribcage height for too long in such a situation, the chance of the left "hook" would be of great concern to me....wadda ya think,
I love this technique so many open avenues to explore!
Richie

 

[Seabrook]

I agree 100% with Robert on this one. You need to pin the hand that grabs.

Pinning the opponent's right hand with your left, in-sync with the step back will control the opponent's height, width, and depth. If you don't pin the hand that grabs, if the opponent lets go, it will cancel most of your action.

About "what-if scenarios"....

After you pin, step back, and clear the arm, if the opponent punches with the left arm, go right into Sword of Destruction.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[distalero]

You guys are debating 'teaching' the technique, with it's concerns, vs. 'doing' the technique effectively, with it's concerns. Two different things.

 

[kenpoworks]

Ok Jamie I will agree with why you should pin with your left hand and it seems like a good variation or advancement of the ideal, I am into developing co-ordination at any level even White Belt.
But as you explore the technique could a "what if" be that environmental circumstances or injury mean that you can't use your left hand.
Rich

 

[kenpoworks]

distalero said......""You guys are debating 'teaching' the technique, with it's concerns, vs. 'doing' the technique effectively, with it's concerns. Two different things.""

Good point, being or becoming "effective" are at or near the top of my list of priorities.
Rich

 

[rmcrobertson]

Actually, "Distalero," no, we're not. At least I'm not.

The thread concerns using the so-called, "Unabridged Library." I simply pointed out that I don't think it's reliable, since there's a major fault in its very first description of a basic kenpo technique.

Yes, one could do this or that or the other thing. Yes, there are choices, "what-ifs." But the, "Library," also exemplfies another basic oopsie--drowning beginning students in theory and in options.

It's fundamental to kenpo: IF a hand grabs you, you slap a hand on top of it. You don't teach this in "Delayed Sword," it won't be there the other Yellow Belt techniques, and on and on...

 

[JKDooer]

I agree, that too many instructors drown the beginner with theory. However, my copy of the Libary has an introduction that explains how to use the book. It was written for instructors, not beginners. So perhaps many of your objections can be nullified with further study in the manuals. I wouldn't broadcast a prejudiced view without further investigation, especially based on just one thing.

JK

 

[distalero]

Actually, "Distalero," no, we're not. At least I'm not.

The thread concerns using the so-called, "Unabridged Library." I simply pointed out that I don't think it's reliable, since there's a major fault in its very first description of a basic kenpo technique.

Yes, one could do this or that or the other thing. Yes, there are choices, "what-ifs." But the, "Library," also exemplfies another basic oopsie--drowning beginning students in theory and in options.

It's fundamental to kenpo: IF a hand grabs you, you slap a hand on top of it. You don't teach this in "Delayed Sword," it won't be there the other Yellow Belt techniques, and on and on...

I don't think I misundertood. What you've posted reads as though you're primarily concerned with training: you give the "choices, "what-ifs" short shrift while focusing on the beginning student, whom you would choose not to "drown in theory and in options". (No debate here from me; I would agree). However, beyond a certain level, it's not an absolute Kenpo fundamental to slap a hand on top of a grab (you haven't sounded like you wear 'the blinders of orthodoxy' elsewhere; I'm sure you know this), and that's the 'doing' of the thing (with a little more sophistication and perhaps effectiveness), distinct from the teaching of the thing. It was noticing the distinction that prompted me to point it out. Always a pleasure.

 

[rmcrobertson]

I'm not sure I can think of a kenpo technique in which, when you get grabbed, you DON'T slap a hand on top of the grab.

I also see your point--but I think the original question had to do with using this "Encyclopedia," as a learning/teaching guide. And I'm not sure why, with all the Parker manuals and the couple sets of good tapes out there, as well as the "Inf. Insights," books, one would want to use these...

Thanks.

 

[KENPOJOE]

Hi Folks!
Since we are mentioning about the Lamkin books [which I highly recomend]and since this has gone into a thread about delayed sword's attack, let's discuss this briefly...
Delayed Sword is designed to address the the simplest basic attack a beginner would deal with for it's time frame. a front right hand lapel grab. The concept that a grab [not immediately followed by a punch or subsaquent action] is designed to "control and restrain" a person rather than do them harm. the response to this attack teaches us the basic concept of "When someone grabs youin or regrab." The idea was to use a pinning check to temporarily trap the offending hand [because you don't want him to rip your expensive shirt] and as you step back [or a "step through reverse" {a term coined by Mr. Parker after he saw himself moving backwards on film}] to 6 o'clock into a right neutral bow, which "establishes a base" and also pulls your opponent off balance, teaching you that "Always keep your opponent off balance while you should always be ON Balance!".
This was common when predominently male students were training, but as more women entered the studio, it was difficult to tell a female white belt student that her first technique involved placing your hand on her chest [breasts] via her gi top lapel. So, the technique attack was changed to an "Attempted front right hand lapel grab" and the student found it easier to see the possibility of a push [attempted or completed] or right straight punch off the same linear action. The pinning check was replaced with a left positional check as solar plexus level.
In the early kenpo days, There was no check on delayed sword. The opponent was expected to maintain the grab as you stepped back [after all, that's why he grabbed you in the first place!] and the retreating foot manuver extended or hyper extended the right arm and then you used a right hammering inward "striking block" to knock his offending hand away and open up his centerline for the subbiquent groin kick.
If you look at Larry Tatum's version of the journal, he advises the inward block to the right bicep, because if you have done the left pinning check and done the extending action, you can safely break the kenpo law of "when blocking to the inside of an arm, block below the elbow,not above it" because you've pinned the limb and the "blocking strike" will cause his hand to open and the grab will be released.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE