true or false Ninja history

[Blooming Lotus]

Have you looked at the other thread yet, and if you did/do , can I have some rep points back???


BL

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Unless I find your statements supported by reliable sources - not. A. Chance.

 

[Blooming Lotus]

........have you heard the one about the forrest and the trees???......

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Have you heard the one about Little Red Riding Hood?

 

[Bester]

Ooohhh a Baka-Fest!
I want ring side seats! Wheres the popcorn?

 

[heretic888]

Ooohhh a Baka-Fest!
I want ring side seats! Wheres the popcorn?

Oy vey.

Please, guys, can we keep this topic localized to the appropriate thread??

And enough with all the sniping, geez.

 

[Gary Arthur]

Moving back on track a little bit.
Firstly when we are talking about the Ninja being bad fighters, where does this fact come from. Where is the historical evidence?
But regardless of that, we should ask ourselves the question of
"Would the ninja ever need to fight?"
In todays world when we talk about fighting we think of either two equally matched opponents in a ring fighting for a trophy, or a couple of drunks outside a pub.
These are both situations that the ninja would not find themselves in either in the past or hopefully today.
Ninjutsu is not about fighting, and proving who is the better man (even though Takamatsu sensei was forced to do so on several occasions) it is about going through life, obtaining what you need and if attacked being able to deal with that situation and returning home safely, in the knowledge that you have acted both morally and legally correctly.
As martial artists we should never have to stand up and fight someone, as this kind of action just brings more violence into the world, and does not fit in with the ninja philosophy.
This is why if we look at a lot of ninjutsu techniques we can see that many are escapes from danger, rather than strategies for a stand up fight in todays sense of the word.
As for Ninjutsu coming from China, well much of Japanese culture came from China, but I doubt that the ancient Japanese saw Kung Fu and imported it, as Kung Fu is a modern form of martial arts of China. Even Wu Shu today is like a dance. Gyokko Ryu has its origins in China, but I can think of few Kung Fu schools if any that bear any resemblance to its movements.
And what about this farmer issue. Well sure farmers may have been Ninja, but they could also have been builders, merchants etc. This is possibly one reason that the Ninja arts have tools such as the Kunai (chisel) and Kama (Sickle) within them.
I think we must move away from the image of the black clad Ninja, and instead see the Ninja as people that lived ordinary lives but also had a unique knowledge of martial arts and martial philosophies.
The Ninja lived in Iga nd Koga right. (well probably not all) but if you had a family then you had to support them, just like today. I study ninjutsu but I have to go work to support my family, and in the past the Ninja had to support theirs. So its highly likely that the Ninja did farm whilst others may have hunted. In Iga it must have been very difficult to feed your family, so hunting may have been a better option. Hunting needs stealth which may have led to Shinobi Iri (Just a thought, but fantastic training).
But just because people farm, it does not necesarily mean we should look down on them as low class, remember samurai were paid in rice, and some were farmers. The class structure of Japan was formulated quite late and at one stage one was given the choice as a young man. Become a farmer or a samurai. Yet both were of the same stock.
The Ninja were originally defeated warriors, and high class rulers of Japan. One can even see members of the Emperors family marrying into Ninja clans if one examines the history.

 

[heretic888]

Oy vey.

Please, guys, can we keep this topic localized to the appropriate thread??

And enough with all the sniping, geez.

Meh, my bad.

I failed to notice this thread was moved to the Traditional forum. Silly me.

 

[heretic888]

Moving back on track a little bit.
Firstly when we are talking about the Ninja being bad fighters, where does this fact come from. Where is the historical evidence?
But regardless of that, we should ask ourselves the question of
"Would the ninja ever need to fight?"
In todays world when we talk about fighting we think of either two equally matched opponents in a ring fighting for a trophy, or a couple of drunks outside a pub.
These are both situations that the ninja would not find themselves in either in the past or hopefully today.
Ninjutsu is not about fighting, and proving who is the better man (even though Takamatsu sensei was forced to do so on several occasions) it is about going through life, obtaining what you need and if attacked being able to deal with that situation and returning home safely, in the knowledge that you have acted both morally and legally correctly.
As martial artists we should never have to stand up and fight someone, as this kind of action just brings more violence into the world, and does not fit in with the ninja philosophy.
This is why if we look at a lot of ninjutsu techniques we can see that many are escapes from danger, rather than strategies for a stand up fight in todays sense of the word.
As for Ninjutsu coming from China, well much of Japanese culture came from China, but I doubt that the ancient Japanese saw Kung Fu and imported it, as Kung Fu is a modern form of martial arts of China. Even Wu Shu today is like a dance. Gyokko Ryu has its origins in China, but I can think of few Kung Fu schools if any that bear any resemblance to its movements.
And what about this farmer issue. Well sure farmers may have been Ninja, but they could also have been builders, merchants etc. This is possibly one reason that the Ninja arts have tools such as the Kunai (chisel) and Kama (Sickle) within them.
I think we must move away from the image of the black clad Ninja, and instead see the Ninja as people that lived ordinary lives but also had a unique knowledge of martial arts and martial philosophies.
The Ninja lived in Iga nd Koga right. (well probably not all) but if you had a family then you had to support them, just like today. I study ninjutsu but I have to go work to support my family, and in the past the Ninja had to support theirs. So its highly likely that the Ninja did farm whilst others may have hunted. In Iga it must have been very difficult to feed your family, so hunting may have been a better option. Hunting needs stealth which may have led to Shinobi Iri (Just a thought, but fantastic training).
But just because people farm, it does not necesarily mean we should look down on them as low class, remember samurai were paid in rice, and some were farmers. The class structure of Japan was formulated quite late and at one stage one was given the choice as a young man. Become a farmer or a samurai. Yet both were of the same stock.
The Ninja were originally defeated warriors, and high class rulers of Japan. One can even see members of the Emperors family marrying into Ninja clans if one examines the history.

Gary,

The Iga/Koga region was invaded at least three times by outside powers --- Ashikaga Yoshihisa, Oda Nobuo, and Oda Nobunaga all launched campaigns to control the area. Thus, these people did see their fair share of combat (which is probably the origin for such schools as Gyokko ryu, Koto ryu, and Gikan ryu).

Still, I think it would be inaccurate to classify them as "downtrodden" or "oppressed" people. From the 1300's on, Iga was an ikko --- a self-governed, quasi-independent kingdom. They had no actual daimyo, as other regions did. The Koga group, as Don points out in his article, made a pact with the Rokkaku daimyo of Omi (where Koga is located). They also had a very high measure of independence and self-determination.

In both areas, not everyone in the region had training in martial arts. As with anywhere else, there were warriors and there were peasantry. They had different roles in the society, and different day to day lives.

The Hattori family were obviously samurai. As were the Momochi family, who at one time inhabited Iga-Ueno castle. In Essence of Ninjutsu, Hatsumi-soke quotes Takamatsu as describing his grandfather's Toda line to have been a samurai family from Iga.

Even if you are going by the oral history, then many of the early "jonin" of "Iga ryu" were retainers of the Minamoto clan --- Togakure Daisuke and Minamoto Kanesada to Minamoto Yoshinaka, Iga Heinabe Yasukiyo to Minamoto Yoritomo, Ise Saburo Yoshimori to Minamoto Yoshitsune, Tozawa Hakuunsai to Minamoto Tameto, and so on.

In Essence of Ninjutsu, Hatsumi-soke relates oral traditions that state that Iga Henaibe Yasukiyo was given the land of Iga Hattori by Minamoto Yoritomo as a reward for his service (hardly sounds like a downtrodden peasant, neh?). This was purportedly the origin of "Iga ryu".

Laterz. :asian:

 

[Cryozombie]

The first time I heard the stories that "Ninja couldnt fight..." or didnt fight or didnt practice fighting skills, as they were too busy perfecting stealth was in the rulebook for the RPG "Legend of the Five Rings"...

Ive never seen a verifiable source outside of that gamebook that said the same thing... even in many of the early and somewhat inaccurate history books I have seen like the Ninja book by adams, they talk about the Ninja's abilities in combat.

 

[Blooming Lotus]

Out of everything I 've read here , that is probably the most uninformed statement yet. I'm about to post a few links, but pls feel free to search for yourself on samurai history ( linking army arts to confucism ) and ninjutsu history linking their conception to buddhism.


AS I said, I found a few links that implicated we are both correct to some extent ( :asian: ) , expect that one of these sites quotes ninpo is in fact a bujutsu after all :0 :0 :0 . "Violence is to be avoided and ninpo is Bujutsu" .

check these out 1. http://www.samurai-archives.com/searchst.html

2. http://www.furyu.com/onlinearticles/Defs1.html

3. http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=+samurai&meta=

4. http://www.geocities.com/remipulwer/Budo/TogakureRyu.html

enjoy

BL

btw : rep points can be restored via .well ....the same way you took them I'm guessing , which after swearing black and blue I was making it up or just straight out uninformed , you'll be only to happy to do I'm sure cheers Nim

 

[Cryozombie]

4. http://www.geocities.com/remipulwer/Budo/TogakureRyu.html

Im confused again...

Its my understanding from that link that some Samurai took teachings that wer created in JAPAN, and added them to his Samurai teachings and Japanese Spirituality... and created Togakrue.

So you have Kagakure Doshi, who created an art that incorporated " the roots of koshijutsu" into it... the only reference to the art and china...

Anyhow... He is the third master of this Japanese Art which contains the concepts of one aspect of a chinese art, and taught it to Daisuke Togakure, who added his samurai training and Shugendo beliefs...

How exactly is that proof that it came from china?

That would be like saying if I created an American Fighting art, based soley on street brawling techniques, but used a Taekwondo Reverse Punche, I created a Korean Art.

 

[Blooming Lotus]

on most of the links I provided it refers to chinese origin in some capacity.

The story you read on that link, says the samurai ( army folks) tried to kill him and his mother when he younger. He himself developed the base of ninjutsu before he was in way samurai affliated . Also confirming "farmer caste " / " seperate and poorer mountain folk origins.

Do you need some sleep by any chance???

BL

btw : pls see buddhist rooting and transgression ( particularly chan and warrior monk buddhism ( ch'an / and remember this is my phd dissertation focus ) and re-read the following quotes from that article

" It was after a mysterious dream that he formed the Tendai Shugendo sect of Buddhism, "


"It is important to understand the events leading up to the creation of Togakure Ryu Ninpo. Daisuke Nishina's father was Yukihiro Nishina, who was a highly ranked samurai in the service of Lord Yoshinaka Minamoto, the cousin of the first Shogun of Japan. When Yoshinaka Minamoto was only an infant, a samurai was sent from a rival family to kill him and his mother. Yoshinaka's mother escaped with him and went secretly to the home of a farmer who was loyal to their family."

"was forced to flee into far-away Iga to escape persecution. There he fled into the remote villages, hidden in the mists of a land of high mountains and thick forests. He changed his name to Daisuke Togakure, after the village of his birth.
While he was in Iga, Daisuke was found by Kagakure Doshi. Kagakure Doshi was a shinobi, and the third soke of Hakuun Ryu, which was one of the original ninjutsu systems developed from the teachings of Ikai (Yi Gai, who brought the roots of koshijutsu from China). "


and these from one of the others



"The samurai (or bushi) were the members of the military class, the Japanese warriors.


Samurai employed a range of weapons such as bows and arrows, spears and guns; but their most famous weapon and their symbol was the sword.

Samurai were supposed to lead their lives according to the ethic code of bushido ("the way of the warrior"). Strongly Confucian in nature, Bushido stressed concepts such as loyalty to one's master, self discipline and respectful, ethical behavior. After a defeat, some samurai chose to commit ritual suicide (seppuku) by cutting their abdomen rather than being captured or dying a dishonorable death. "

"


Heian Period (794-1185) The samurai's importance and influence grew during the Heian Period, when powerful landowners hired private warriors for the protection of their properties. Towards the end of the Heian Period, two military clans, the Minamoto and Taira, had grown so powerful that they seized control over the country and fought wars for supremacy against each other. "


"


Azuchi-Momoyama Period (1573 - 1603) When Toyotomi Hideyoshi reunited Japan, he started to introduce a rigid social caste system which was later completed by Tokugawa Ieyasu and his successors. Hideyoshi forced all samurai to decide between a life on the farm and a warrior life in castle towns. Furthermore, he forbade anyone but the samurai to arm themselves with a sword. "

"
Because these schools were all founded at slightly different times they may have a different emphasis. Some of these schools were founded in times of war, others in times of relative peace. Not all of these nine schools can be truely called Ninjutsu, some of them are perhaps better labeled as Samurai warrior arts. However, because they are all taught together they are generally given the banner of "Ninjutsu".

"
Because these schools were all founded at slightly different times they may have a different emphasis. Some of these schools were founded in times of war, others in times of relative peace. Not all of these nine schools can be truely called Ninjutsu, some of them are perhaps better labeled as Samurai warrior arts. However, because they are all taught together they are generally given the banner of "Ninjutsu". "

"History is unfortunately (however understandably) Vague. It is generally accepted as being a good account, but some of it may be incorrect. This information has been researched, but given that much of this history has been trasmitted via "word of mouth" it is not possible to know how much of it is accurate"


"Koto Ryu - Tiger knocking Down School

The oral teachings of the Koto Ryu say that this art came from China"

"Ninjutsu was created in central Honshu (the largest of the Japanese islands) about eleven hundred years ago. It was developed by mountain-dwelling families in an area not unlike the American Appalachians, where the terrain is rugged and remote. Ninja families were great observers of nature."

"
It is generally accepted that the methods found in Ninjutsu originated outside of Japan. After the fall of the T'ang dynasty in China, many outcast warriors, philosophers, and military strategists escaped to Japan to avoid punishment by the new Chinese rulers. It is believed that Ninja families were exposed to many of these exiled people's sophisticated warrior strategies and philosophies over the centuries, helping to influence and shape what became Ninjutsu. "

"The Ninja were not particularly warlike, yet they were constantly harassed by the ruling society of Japan. They were routinely subjected to unfair taxation and religious persecution. The Ninja eventually learned to act more and more efficiently in their own self-defense. They used their superior knowledge of the workings of nature, as well as specific military techniques passed down through the years, as weapons against the numerically superior government armies."


the samurai no less .


"Sometimes a Ninja family would use its military or information-gathering resources to protect its members from becoming victims in a power play between competing samurai clans. Occasionally, a Ninja family would support one faction over another, if they felt it to be to their advantage. "

"
Ninja were not always primarily soldiers. Of course, certain Ninja operatives, or genin, were trained from childhood as warriors. But this training was usually precautionary. Genin Ninja knew that they might be called to help protect the community at some future time, but, they often spent most of their lives as farmers or tradespeople. Ninja intelligence gatherers sent to live in the strongholds of potential enemies were rarely required to act openly. "

"The Roots of Ninjutsu

Although there has been an evolution of Ninjutsu as a life philosophy over the centuries, the fundamental principles have remained virtually unchanged. Togakure ryu Ninjutsu is more than 800 years old. Except for a relatively short period of notoriety prior to the reign of the Tokugawas, the art lived quietly in the hearts of just a few people. The Ninja were a separate society from the urban centered ruling class and the non-privileged classes which served them............... Consider the gulf that must have existed between the new American government and the American Indians during the first 125 years following the signing of the Declaration of Independence. Although this is an incomplete and potentially misleading analogy, it may give you a better understanding on how Ninjutsu may have developed as a counterculture to the samurai-dominated Japanese society. "

"The samurai approach to combat was called bushido; it evolved from a general set of guidelines for the gentleman warrior into a formal discipline. The Ninja philosophy, though sharing many of the same values as the original samurai, evolved along a different cultural path. "

and so forth. You didn't read the articles all did you TP

"The Ninja's sometimes devious tactics were seen by some as cowardly and disgusting"

"Since Ninja were not bushi (followers of the samurais' strict code of martial ethics) they were looked down upon as being uncivilized."

Sorry for the long post but I guess some folks need to have it broken it s.l.o.w.l.y.

later

BL

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

The story you read on that link, says the samurai ( army folks) tried to kill him and his mother when he younger. He himself developed the base of ninjutsu before he was in way samurai affliated . Also confirming "farmer caste " / " seperate and poorer mountain folk origins.

Doesn't prove a thing. Having studied at a buddhist monastery proves nothing of ninjutsu's development.

Tokugawa Ieyasu came from a relatively low-class family also.

 

[Cryozombie]

on most of the links I provided it refers to chinese origin in some capacity.

The story you read on that link, says the samurai ( army folks) tried to kill him and his mother when he younger. He himself developed the base of ninjutsu before he was in way samurai affliated . Also confirming "farmer caste " / " seperate and poorer mountain folk origins.

Do you need some sleep by any chance???

BL

Nope. Did you read it? It says:

Daisuke Nishina's father was Yukihiro Nishina, who was a highly ranked samurai in the service of Lord Yoshinaka Minamoto, the cousin of the first Shogun of Japan.

On his side had fought Yukihiro Nishina of Togakure, who was also killed, and his son Daisuke Nishina, who survived. Daisuke, being on the losing side of this battle, was forced to flee into far-away Iga to escape persecution. There he fled into the remote villages, hidden in the mists of a land of high mountains and thick forests. He changed his name to Daisuke Togakure, after the village of his birth.

Note him FIGHTING alongside his Samurai father well before fleeing to Iga and learning Hakkun-ryu Ninjutsu, which he later refined into Togakure-ryu.


You mixed names and facts up. Yoshinaka Minamoto, the Shogun's Cousin was the one they attempted to kill.


I'm going to give you the benifit of the doubt and assume that you didn't read the whole thing or did not read it carefully, and are not just making things up assuming no one will check.

 

[Blooming Lotus]

just did a few edits, so pls feel free to re-read.


then re-read this,


"Daisuke Nishina was born into a Samurai family. Sometime during his early life, he studied at the Tendai monastery on Togakure Mountain (Mount Hiei-zan) near his village. These early experiences were to play an important role later when Daisuke was to establish a system of fighting, survival and infiltration.
It is important to understand the events leading up to the creation of Togakure Ryu Ninpo. Daisuke Nishina's father was Yukihiro Nishina, who was a highly ranked samurai in the service of Lord Yoshinaka Minamoto, the cousin of the first Shogun of Japan. When Yoshinaka Minamoto was only an infant, a samurai was sent from a rival family to kill him and his mother. Yoshinaka's mother escaped with him and went secretly to the home of a farmer who was loyal to their family. Yoshinaka was later brought to Kiso village in Shinano, not far from Togakure village.

Daisuke Togakure learned Doshi's warrior teachings, and added them to his own Shugendo beliefs, and the beginnings of Togakure Ryu where forged"

Fair enough Nim, but it still implys and specifically states and confirms in the other articles that his prior samurai experiences insighted the expansion of that into ninjutsu conception to combat them directly.


BL

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

And...?

 

[Blooming Lotus]

and you were wrong on my being wrong is what.



Like I said, if you're going to be stubbornly narrow-minded about it and ignore opposing views and facts, the discussion is over from me.



Cheers

BL

 

[Cryozombie]

and you were wrong on my being wrong is what.

BL

Studying religion in his youth is not the same as almost being assassinated, nor does it equate with him being a ninja before he was a samurai. It means he studied religion at a monestary in his youth, and does not make your above statements, especially the one where you claim that Daisuke Nishina was the target of an assassination attempt in his youth, correct.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

You have yet to bring forth ANY kind of believable facts, so your calling me narrow-minded and stubborn is a moot point.
Read Stephen Turnbull's book "Ninja - The True Story of Japan's Secret Warrior Cult". And while you're at it, why don't you e-mail Karl Friday as well. Then we can discuss this seriously.