true or false Ninja history

heretic888

Senior Master
Joined
Oct 25, 2002
Messages
2,723
Reaction score
60
From a recent post by Wayne Muromoto on e-budo about this very subject:

"[...]A matter of terminology. A spy can be anybody who is willing to do espionage work for you. The stoolie on the corner. The prostitute hanging out on Hotel Street in Honolulu. The Iraqi informant. Pay 'em enough and they'll rat out somebody for you.

But someone who supposedly plied his trade in the 'art of ninjutsu,' per a ninjutsu ryu, was usually a samurai, albeit from varying (and often lower) classes: Jizamurai, or those 'country bumpkin' samurai out in the boondocks, warriors who were adept at espionage and information gathering, trained warriors from specific ryu who had skill in certain unorthodox methods, etc. There's a difference. If you are talking about recognized ninjutsu ryu, such as the historic Koga and Iga, their systems came from warrior clans; the various jizamurai families who made up the Koga, or the Iga headed by the Hattori.

Hattori Hanzo became one of Ieyasu's leading military advisors. At the time of Oda Nobunaga's death, Hattori Hanzo was already a minor daimyo of a fief worth 3,000 koku, so he was a 'samurai' even before becoming a direct retainer of Ieyasu. Even in Hanzo's father's era, the Hattori used various 'kashin' (samurai retainers) for espionage and guerrilla attacks in conjunction with their allies and superiors' battles, most notably at the Battle of Anegawa and Sambogahara, in which they furnished some 600 warriors for a night attack. For his work as a samurai, the Tokugawa gave Hanzo the nickname 'Oni Hanzo,' and considered him one of the three great braves of the Tokugawa alliance.

('Lord Tokugawa has great samurai, lo!...
Hattori Hanzo is Oni (demon) Hanzo,
Watanabe Hanzo is Yari (spear) Hanzo...
Akumi Gengo is Kubikiri (head cutting) Gengo!'
--From the Mikawa Monogatari

The book I am grazing into (Ninja No Seikatsu by Yamaguchi Masayuki) notes that Tokugawa Ieyasu enlisted the Koga Bushidan early on in his career. Note 'bushidan.' It means a samurai army. Not a 'commoner's' army."
 

sojobow

Purple Belt
Joined
Mar 14, 2004
Messages
375
Reaction score
27
Kaith Rustaz said:
Acceptable sources do not include the following:
- GURPS
- D&D's Oriental Adventures Source Book
- Anything published by TSR, FASA, or other pen & paper gaming companies
- Ultima Online, Final Fantasy or any other online RPG
- Video Games / Board Games / Role Playing Games or related.
- Movie Sourcebooks
- Ashida Kim / HaHa Lung / Frank Dux
- GeoCities/Tripod/Lycos/Yahoo or other free hosting sites.

Prefered references would include:
- Archeological
- First Person reports
- Multiple Independants who have the same conclusion.
- Leading researchers at Accedited Universities.
Am I to conclude that a "First Person Reports" generated on a "free hosting sites" is acceptable or unacceptable? My own Sensei has a GeoCities site. According to you, his site is unacceptable as well as all the Kan's GeoCities sites. But, since this is your policy, I'll try to find other Multiples with the same conclusions. Quite a bit of my last post could be referenced with just about any Ninjutsu Glossary of Terms and post already a part of this Forum. I've noticed -and inadvertently I believe - one of the last posts in this thread extracted from an e-budo post proves the rest unless Wayne is not a "Prefered Reference."

But, since my own Hanshi is not acceptable, maybe I should accept this "Snipe" against him and move on. C U.
 

Cryozombie

Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Feb 11, 2003
Messages
9,998
Reaction score
206
sojobow said:
But, since my own Hanshi is not acceptable, maybe I should accept this "Snipe" against him and move on. C U.
Sojobow,

It is my understanding you study Dux Ryu? If that is correct, his version of "history", while it may or may not be accurate, does not belong in the traditional ninjutsu section... Which is why Kaith posted:

Kaith Rustaz said:
Acceptable sources do not include the following:
- GURPS
- D&D's Oriental Adventures Source Book
- Anything published by TSR, FASA, or other pen & paper gaming companies
- Ultima Online, Final Fantasy or any other online RPG
- Video Games / Board Games / Role Playing Games or related.
- Movie Sourcebooks
- Ashida Kim / HaHa Lung / Frank Dux
- GeoCities/Tripod/Lycos/Yahoo or other free hosting sites.



None of those "sources" are recognized as legitimate info on the X-kan lineage. So, I would disagree that the comment was a "snipe", and more a guideline for what is NOT acceptable as source material on Traditional X-kan ninjutsu.
 

Bob Hubbard

Retired
MT Mentor
Founding Member
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 4, 2001
Messages
47,245
Reaction score
771
Location
Land of the Free
Take it however you will. No slights were intended. I'm just tired of fantasy theories, backed by comic book research and too many shaggystyle snack induced halucinations being argued about as if we were there yesterday.

This particular forum is for the acknowledged traditional systems as indicated in the charter. "What Ifs" belong in the General, and the "NewAge" stuff belongs elsewhere.

If your instructor has a legitimate lineage, has been reconized as legit by other legit masters, then we can overlook his choice of webhosts.
Mind you, if he has a "Soke" title that he bought from a "Soke Society", and more degrees than a thermometer, well.....


BTW - Considering that a website and domain can be had for under $200/year, I and many others discount all the freebie sites. Too much crap, too little accountability. (I do the hosting/domains starting at $135/year)
 

Don Roley

Senior Master
MTS Alumni
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
3,522
Reaction score
71
Location
Japan
The nice thing about the charter of this section is that it only requires you to be traceable to Japan. I have three books on my shelf, and if your style is not listed in any one of them I can say with 99.99 percent certainty that your claims of Japanese origin are bogus.
 

heretic888

Senior Master
Joined
Oct 25, 2002
Messages
2,723
Reaction score
60
Just out of curiosity, Don, what would the names of those books be??

:asian:
 

sojobow

Purple Belt
Joined
Mar 14, 2004
Messages
375
Reaction score
27
Technopunk said:
Sojobow,

It is my understanding you study Dux Ryu? If that is correct, his version of "history", while it may or may not be accurate, does not belong in the traditional ninjutsu section... Which is why Kaith posted:
[/i]
None of those "sources" are recognized as legitimate info on the X-kan lineage. So, I would disagree that the comment was a "snipe", and more a guideline for what is NOT acceptable as source material on Traditional X-kan ninjutsu.
If your post is accurate, I stand corrected. I would agree that someone not directly associated with X-kan lineage, would have little to add to that subject matter. I associated Kaith's 3 names as stating that these gentlemen are not a credible source throughtout the Martialtalk Forum on any subject whatsoever. My defense position was that it would seem unfitting to denouce anyone from any credibility on any subject matter throughout this entire forum. It would not matter what the names were, I would defend their right to speak unless banned. My misunderstanding.

Would someone studying Kendo in Japan have a right to express their findings on the history of Kenjutsu?
 

Don Roley

Senior Master
MTS Alumni
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
3,522
Reaction score
71
Location
Japan
sojobow said:
Would someone studying Kendo in Japan have a right to express their findings on the history of Kenjutsu?

Anyone would. But the three people listed (Asida Kim, Frank Dux and Haha Lung) have extreme credibility problems and much of what they write is counter to known facts in Japan. Everything they say is suspect and needs to be backed up with other material to be believed. Since that is the case, you might as well skip using them and go straight for the supporting evidence- if there is any.

Oh, and Heretic, the three sources are the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, Ninja no Subete and the yearly supplement that Hiden magazine comes out with.
 

heretic888

Senior Master
Joined
Oct 25, 2002
Messages
2,723
Reaction score
60
Don Roley said:
Oh, and Heretic, the three sources are the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, Ninja no Subete and the yearly supplement that Hiden magazine comes out with.

Thanks for the info. :asian:
 

BruceCalkins

Blue Belt
Joined
Apr 15, 2005
Messages
214
Reaction score
22
Location
Perry, NY
True Ninja are nothing like what you see on TV or the Movies. The Ninja began before that were said to be Assassins working for that Shogun. They were Farmers protecting their family and Land. This si why most of the Weapons of the Ninja and in Okinawa history were farm tools. The Sai, Nun-Chuka, Kama.. Even the Ninja-To was usually made from an old plow blade. not Carbon Steal like the Katana. The Masks were so the Samuri could not tell who they were because the Shogun promised that anyone to disobey him would "Die for 10 generations." The intire Family would suffer if a Ninja/Farmer was caught. The fighting skill was out of nassessity with no or little budo training. Many of the Ninja, Nin-Po, Ninjitsu, Ninja-Ryu etc: Schools you find have added Karate, Aikido and even Kung-Fu aspects to make it more like what we see in the movies. True Ninja Training is very basic and rooted in defense. This dosen't mean that these other schools have no history or that they are not true Ninja Schools. It just has grown. Like all martial arts. Their founders, Instuctors and Masters have improved on the first training to give the Martial Arts world something better and more Appealing.
 

Grey Eyed Bandit

Master of Arts
Joined
Mar 14, 2004
Messages
1,503
Reaction score
49
Location
MAP Hell
SokeCalkins said:
True Ninja are nothing like what you see on TV or the Movies. The Ninja began before that were said to be Assassins working for that Shogun. They were Farmers protecting their family and Land. This si why most of the Weapons of the Ninja and in Okinawa history were farm tools. The Sai, Nun-Chuka, Kama.. Even the Ninja-To was usually made from an old plow blade. not Carbon Steal like the Katana. The Masks were so the Samuri could not tell who they were because the Shogun promised that anyone to disobey him would "Die for 10 generations." The intire Family would suffer if a Ninja/Farmer was caught. The fighting skill was out of nassessity with no or little budo training. Many of the Ninja, Nin-Po, Ninjitsu, Ninja-Ryu etc: Schools you find have added Karate, Aikido and even Kung-Fu aspects to make it more like what we see in the movies. True Ninja Training is very basic and rooted in defense. This dosen't mean that these other schools have no history or that they are not true Ninja Schools. It just has grown. Like all martial arts. Their founders, Instuctors and Masters have improved on the first training to give the Martial Arts world something better and more Appealing.
:bs:
 

Shizen Shigoku

Purple Belt
Joined
Sep 30, 2004
Messages
344
Reaction score
25
Ah, Nim - you have such a clear, concise way with words . . .

well, the thread is about true or false history, so I guess we get to see both.

Legends and mythology are fun though, huh?


Oh and p.s. congratulations on your MT black belt :p
 

Don Roley

Senior Master
MTS Alumni
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
3,522
Reaction score
71
Location
Japan
Mr Calkins,
Welcome to the traditional ninjutsu section of martialtalk. I hope that you learn a great deal while you are here.

I have to caution you on your approach. I can tell that you are very inexperienced in martial arts and not very knowledgeable about the subject matter. Even still, your authoritive tone is a bit out of place and may cause some friction. There are many, many people that would be willing to help a newbie like yourself if only you would stop writing things that are, to be blunt, very silly with a voice of authority.

I understand that you seem to have no experience with ninjutsu. However, it is not hard to find a legitimate book on the subject and find out that the ninja did not use sai and nunchaku as you state. And your portrayal of the history, status and situation of the ninja seems to come from popular fiction rather than a serious resource. That is a common begginer mistake and with you being so inexperienced it is only expected that you would fall into that trap.

Again, we are a pretty nice lot about helping those that lack experience in the martial arts and ninjutsu like yourself. But it may irritate people when a person with your lack of knowledge accidently sounds like he is an expert as you seem to have done.
 

heretic888

Senior Master
Joined
Oct 25, 2002
Messages
2,723
Reaction score
60
Don Roley said:
I have to caution you on your approach. I can tell that you are very inexperienced in martial arts and not very knowledgeable about the subject matter.

I dunno, Don. According to his profile, he's a "10th Degree Black Belt" in "Fusho-Satori-Ryu". Heh. :rolleyes:

I mean, with credentials like that, how can you not trust his "history" without question?? I mean, seriously??

:ultracool
 

rutherford

Master Black Belt
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
1,194
Reaction score
13
Location
Vermont, USA
heretic888 said:
I dunno, Don. According to his profile, he's a "10th Degree Black Belt" in "Fusho-Satori-Ryu". Heh. :rolleyes:

I mean, with credentials like that, how can you not trust his "history" without question?? I mean, seriously??

:ultracool


It's the Black Star Ninjitsu that should really worry you. :rolleyes:

Hmm, now where have I heard of that before . . . oh yeah. A movie.
 

Kizaru

Purple Belt
Joined
Jun 12, 2004
Messages
376
Reaction score
27
Location
Chiba Prefecture, Japan
heretic888 said:
I dunno, Don. According to his profile, he's a "10th Degree Black Belt" in "Fusho-Satori-Ryu". Heh. :rolleyes:

I mean, with credentials like that, how can you not trust his "history" without question?? I mean, seriously??

:ultracool
"Fusho"? Which characters is it written with?

封書 (Fusho) "a sealed letter/envelope"

負傷 (Fushou) "an injury; a wound"

Is it "Injured Enlightenment Tradition" or "Sealed Envelope Enlightenment Tradition" ???
 

BlackCatBonz

Master Black Belt
Joined
Aug 14, 2004
Messages
1,233
Reaction score
35
Location
Port Hope ON
well i think both of those names sound cool, and by cool, i mean totally sweet........if he's not using them, i will buy them from you. i will just use the english versions so i wont come across like a knob by not knowing any japanese though.
 

Latest Discussions

Top