true or false Ninja history

[heretic888]

I didn't say I was an expert on japanese history, but I do know what varifying your facts means and how to go about it.

You have yet to do so. At least on these forums, anyway.

Most of your sources seem to be from researching Buddhist temples and wushu in China, perusing internet search engines that fail to cite their sources, RPG webbooks, and anecdotal discussions with Hatsumi-soke and "some of his Australian students".

In any event, none of the above are primary historical sources about the shinobi no mono. Thus, I have yet to see any "facts" being verified.

And the "oh boys" --- indicating a not-so-veiled call for feminist moral high-ground --- doesn't help your case very much, either.

So, please, simply present the sources for your contention that "the Ninja" were, in fact, "downtrodden peasants defending themselves from samurai raiders". This is in agreement with pre-1988 Hayes sources, but not any other that anyone else here seems to know about.

Oh, and please don't try and sidetrack with essay links about the definition of koryu, budo, bujutsu, or what have you. They are really secondary to the discussion at hand.

Have a good 'un. :asian:

 

[Kreth]

=============
Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Jeff
-MT Moderator-

 

[Shogun]

Has anyone read the Book, "classical fighting arts of Japan" by Serge Mol? it has some good info in it about Koryu Jujutsu systems. I am wondering, why does it not contain info on Koto ryu, Togakure ryu, Gikan ryu, Gyokko ryu, etc.? it has some info on Takagi yoshin ryu, but the history is different than the Bujinkan's lineage......

 

[Don Roley]

Has anyone read the Book, "classical fighting arts of Japan" by Serge Mol? it has some good info in it about Koryu Jujutsu systems. I am wondering, why does it not contain info on Koto ryu, Togakure ryu, Gikan ryu, Gyokko ryu, etc.? it has some info on Takagi yoshin ryu, but the history is different than the Bujinkan's lineage......

Lack of direct contact with the schools you mention. There are tons of schools he did not even mention in the book because of a lack of space, and a lack of personal experience with them. So he stuck with schools he had information and contacts on for the most part.

 

[Shogun]

I figured it was just because he was basically dedicating the book to his teachers. What about Koryu.com? why no Booj arts there?

 

[heretic888]

Can of worms, shogun. Can of worms.

 

[Don Roley]

What about Koryu.com? why no Booj arts there?

Put yourself in their shoes for a minute. Decades ago the head of the Bujinkan, Masaaki Hatsumi, was given the chance to join a Koryu preservation society. In return for doing things their way, he would be able to join. He refused.

So, if the head of the art does not want the responsibility of being a member, why are his students pestering the web site started by other members wanting the benifits of being associated with them?

Sorry to go off on a tangent here, but I have seen some pretty nasty things written about that site for years and it makes me mad. People complain that they have not made an effort to study the arts of the Bujinkan and their history, but why should they when Hatsumi himself has shown no interest in joining them? Yet some of the most hatefull stuff has been said about them and I am sad that a lot of it comes from Bujinkan members.

Back on track....

I also happen to think that mixing the Koryu guys and us would be a huge mistake. For some Bujinkan members "traditional weapons" means revolvers rather than semi- autos. And the knowledge of Japanese language, history, customs, etc is just terrible. Oh, there are some guys that know what the heck they are talking about. But they are not the ones most active on the internet.

 

[Blooming Lotus]

You have yet to do so. At least on these forums, anyway.
So, please, simply present the sources for your contention that "the Ninja" were, in fact, "downtrodden peasants defending themselves from samurai raiders". This is in agreement with pre-1988 Hayes sources, but not any other that anyone else here seems to know about.
. :asian:

I felt I've done what I can,and spent as many hours researching and posting to support my statements as I'm prepared to. Please feel free to extend your own search efforts at any time. If you can't accept reality or possible alternative , you'll never have the truth about much, despite what you read I really am done. Extremely busy on a law component for security guard upgrade so I'll leave you all with it.

BL

 

[Don Roley]

Moderator Note.
Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=314 Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

-Don Roley
-MT Moderator-

 

[sojobow]

I don't really think it matters what person you speak in, sometimes just disagreeing is going to do it. ( btw : pls see bright red spot next to my own post count ) ..whaddya you do ?? cheers BL

Excuse please. Suspended for a couple of weeks. I see you've jumped into the lion's den. Point one: Never bring up a chinese connection here. Its true, but its hard to extract the concession here. I did and I'm red like you for it. They know and will admit it later on (just quote Hatsumi Sensei and they'll give in but with a caveat or two). But don't get mad when they bring up your parents like they did mine. Without any stated sources as time is of the essence, the chinese connection does exist and is proven even by the 2 hightest ranking members of the X-Kans. It is also true that NOT ALL Ninjas were hand to hand fighters. Some were experts in poisions, some were experts in Planning and Strategy Development, some were just messenger boys and girls. Some were just girls FCS. Some were women who used the natural assets of womenhood. Some were 16 years old and could fight and some were 71 years old and couldn't fight. At one point, none of them could fight very well which would be natural since the Ninja did not come out of the womb ready for warfare. Ninjutsu did have its infancy periods. Some ninja clans were just about completely exterminated (with the help of other ninja clans on the side of the enemy). Some Ninja Clans were wiped out because of failed assassination efforts (after being turned over by other ninja clans to the assassinationee). Some early Ninja were Hinin (sp.l) and hated as low-lifes. Some Ninja were turned Samurai and loved at one point and hated at another point. Why someone getting paid with land grants would just quit and go live as a farmer is strange rationale to me. Guess just about every story your read has some truth to it depending on the year in question.

Think I'd better stop now. Don't want to be caught sniping.

 

[Don Roley]

Sojobow, are you are willing to give sources for everything you say so we can check for ourselves?

 

[Kreth]

Yes, if you're going to post in the Traditional forum, be prepared to cite sources...

Jeff

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Acceptable sources do not include the following:
- GURPS
- D&D's Oriental Adventures Source Book
- Anything published by TSR, FASA, or other pen & paper gaming companies
- Ultima Online, Final Fantasy or any other online RPG
- Video Games / Board Games / Role Playing Games or related.
- Movie Sourcebooks
- Ashida Kim / HaHa Lung / Frank Dux
- GeoCities/Tripod/Lycos/Yahoo or other free hosting sites.

Prefered references would include:
- Archeological
- First Person reports
- Multiple Independants who have the same conclusion.
- Leading researchers at Accedited Universities.

 

[Kreth]

Cool, so I'm still free to cite Oni Musha as a source

Jeff

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Who? Chow won Mushi?

 

[Kreth]

It's a PS2 game, with ninja... The title is supposed to translate as "demon warrior," although I'm not sure if that's correct usage or not...

Jeff

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Revised to include video games.

 

[heretic888]

Damn, I never knew we had so many gamers on the forum. :supcool:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I used to write them.....http://rustaz.com/personalinfo.html

 

[heretic888]

d00000000000d. :asian: :asian: